Big Blue View Drools over Big Ben

by HinesField on Nov 13, 2007 10:02 PM EST

Big Blue View, the NY Giants blog, is consistent about sticking with the New York traditions of perpetually bashing Eli Manning. Today, however, it's reached a new level of hilarity. They're playing the we-should-have-drafted-Roethlisberger game--and this time, they're serious about it.

A straight up comparison of Roethlisberger and Manning tells you Big Ben is a better player. He has a Super Bowl title, a 63% career completion percentage and a QB rating of 110. Eli has a couple of playoff losses, has never completed 60% and has a career rating of 78.6.

Add to that Roethlisberger's toughness, blue-collar personality and ability to make plays on the move (like that guy the Giants faced Sunday) would suit the Giants well.

It leaves me with a few questions, even if the responses I get aren't exactly impartial:

Is Roethlisberger actually so much better than Manning that they've sunk this far?
Even further, how much of Ben's success is in the fact that the Steelers are a traditionally run-heavy team, so he doesn't throw as much? Would Ben be this successful anywhere else?

Not that any of it matters, other than me getting upset when Giants fans start acting like a bunch of whiners over the fact that Ben's having a better year, ignoring the fact that the Steelers are the better team. Eli-bashing is something of a tradition in the NY/NJ area where leading a 6-3 team is apparently unacceptable. I'll leave y'all with one last, entertaining quote: Yet, he (Eli) lives in the shadow of his brother Peyton, one of the best to ever play. He lives in the shadow of Roethlisberger, who already has what Eli is trying to get.

Ouch.

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Comments

wow!

I mean, I don't disagree with that assesment that Ben's a better QB in most every area than Eli. But Eli has looked pretty good this year, no? I don't watch many Giants games, but I was under the impression he was making some solid strides this year.

DId he not play well the other day against Dallas? Attention span that short up in NY?

by Michael Bean on Nov 13, 2007 10:21 PM EST reply actions

He definitely has his good days and bad.

Given that the Giants are 6-3 (with two of the losses to Dallas), they are obviously more good than bad. I don't think he's played too badly this year, actually.

I wouldn't call it a short attention span, though. It's more like an intolerance of anything imperfect, especially when anything related to the Red Sox or Cowboys are involved. New Yorkers and the NY media are like that; that factor is a major reason why I wonder if a lot of other QBs would be doing better there.

For an example, remember how McNabb was complaining earlier in the season that he's being held to a higher standard because of some perceived racism? He failed to consider the fact that in the northeast, everything's held to a higher standard.

by HinesField on Nov 14, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions

Forget Ben, think of Rivers

The Giants were never going to draft Ben that high, so fans should thank their lucky stars they didn't end up with Rivers, who has gone in the tank. In New York, he would be crucified.

Eli will be fine. He has made more progress this year. I don't think he is much of a leader and certainly not a New York Type A personality, but he can make all the throws, seems unselfish and a hard worker. He will probably never match up well with Ben. Having Romo in his own division also creates problems for Eli in terms of how Giants fans will perceive him.

Playing in the NFC, Eli might have a chance in the near future to get to a Super Bowl. Hard to imagine the Giants winning a Super Bowl, but getting there and having some personal success might do a lot for Eli's image with New York fans.

by steeler lifer on Nov 14, 2007 2:10 AM EST reply actions

word on draft day

The Giants had the QBs ranked Eli, Ben, Rivers. They only took Rivers because they knew they were going to deal him to San Diego which had Rivers higher than Ben. If the Giants hadn't made that deal they would've taken Ben 4th overall.

by schnifin on Nov 14, 2007 9:23 AM EST up reply actions

Rivers

Since we went to the same school, I thought I'd stick up for Philip Rivers a little here. He has been struggling this year, no doubt, but I don't think it's fair to say he's in the tank. His numbers this year (just checked on ESPN.com) are comparable to Eli's. Eli has 3 more TDs, but 1 more INT than Rivers. Also, his career numbers are better than Eli's, which is pretty good considering this is only his second year as a starter, rather than his 4th, as is the case for Eli and Ben. Here are their numbers from ESPN.com for comparison.

Eli Manning
SPLIT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
2007 168 283 1820 59.4 6.43 60 14 11 13 78.6
Projected 299 503 3236 59.4 6.43 60 25 20 23 78.6
Career 858 1559 9869 55.0 6.33 78 68 55 79 74.2

Philip Rivers
SPLIT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
2007 155 255 1743 60.8 6.84 49 10 10 13 77.9
Projected 276 453 3099 60.8 6.84 49 18 18 23 77.9
Career 456 745 5279 61.2 7.09 57 33 20 44 86.2

He has struggled this year, but I said before the season that Norv Turner is not head coach material, and look at the team. The whole team is struggling compared to last year. LT's numbers are down, the defense gave up 296 yard to Adrian Peterson. They're in trouble all around.

I mean, let's not get too carried away, it's not like he's Alex Smith, or something.

Ok, I'm done defending Philip. And, I wouldn't trade him for Ben right now, that's for sure.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Nov 14, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions

Rivers

I agree WolfPack..he's going to be fine. I don't know what the problem with the offense is out there, but he is learning an entirely new scheme in just his 2nd year as a starter. He had to learn Cam Cameron's offense the psat couple years, now all that's gone and he's expected to work with Norv Turner. Just a lot to ask if you ask me.

He had some really, really efficient games last year. This year, I definitely have been unimpressed, but I'm not ready to write him off yet. I think he'll be as good, if not better, than Eli when all is said and done.

by Michael Bean on Nov 14, 2007 12:19 PM EST up reply actions

Thier concerns/questions are pretty valid

I don't think you could say Eli has been a bust by an means but his career to this point is a shell of Ben's. It's a really go time to compare thier careers because they both have 50 career games in four seasons and Eli is a full year older since he stayed for his senior year. So here are some stats that Eli fans don't want you to hear:

Season's with a QB rating over 98 -
Ben 3
Eli 0

Season's with a QB rating under 80 -
Ben 1
Eli 4

Seasons with a completion percentage over 60% -
Ben - 3
Eli - 0

Career TD to INT ratio -
Ben 74:50
Eli 68:55

Career Yds -
Ben 10,539
Eli 9,869

Career yards per attempt -
Ben 8.3
Eli 6.3

Bottom line is there isn't any comparison and just to stick it to NY fans, Ben's worst season he still had a better QB rating than Eli's career average.

"The more violent team will win tonight" - Mike Tomlin.

by cgolden on Nov 14, 2007 9:24 AM EST reply actions

nice

And those stats have Ben's anomaly year in them (last year), and don't account for his mobility and strength, neither of which Eli has.

by Michael Bean on Nov 14, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions

True enough.

Part of me hates comparing QBs directly since it fails to take into account the differences in offensive styles, as well, though.

One statistic you don't mention is that in each of the last 3 years, Manning had at least 20% more attempts than Ben (even after adjusting for the games Ben missed in 05). I think part of that is the Giants just throw more, and throw long passes more, which will typically decrease completion percentage and increase interception numbers except for exceptional quarterbacks, i.e., Peyton.

Further, back when the Giants had Tiki Barber, they used a LOT of short passes to Tiki instead of the run (about 20% of Manning's completions were to Tiki), which brings down yards/completion and yards/attempt averages.

This isn't to denigrate Ben or talk up Eli. I don't think Eli would really have a chance of succeeding in the Steelers offense. I just wonder how Ben would do in the Giants'.

The fact that Ben started his career with a top-tier football team couldn't hurt his numbers, either.

Although, you do have to respect that Ben's put up better career passing yard numbers than Eli in the same number of games (almost).

by HinesField on Nov 14, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions

Tiki probably helped his numbers

You do bring up some good points about Ben stepping into a good situation but Tiki averaged 9.6 yards a reception since 2004, so he actually helped Eli's yards per attempt/completion.

"The more violent team will win tonight" - Mike Tomlin.

by cgolden on Nov 14, 2007 1:31 PM EST up reply actions

Giants 2004 Draft

Here is a good link to a Peter King SI story that explains Ernie Accorsi's strategy at the 2004 Draft ... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/peter_king/04/24/king.mmqb/index.html ...

Lots of good background info. The Giants did indeed have Ben rated ahead of Rivers, but would not have picked him at No. 4. They had a deal with Cleveland to move down to No. 6 and pick Ben there, and would have gained extra draft picks. They originally turned down a deal from SD to swap positions that would have cost them Umenyori as well as draft picks. Bottom line, they accepted a deal to move up that cost them a first-rounder and two third-rounders, rather than take a deal to move down that would have got them Ben and extra picks.

Apologies for saying Rivers has gone into the tank. Didn't mean to suggest it's permanent for Rivers. He showed enough last year to think he still has some promise. But Norv Turner or not, he has looked awful at times and will have to turn things around next year to become a solid career QB.

by steeler lifer on Nov 14, 2007 12:25 PM EST reply actions

no need to apologize

You very well may be right in fact. I mean who knows. His delivery is funky, he kinda pouts out there on the field, and we never know if he only looked good last year because of LT.

I think his track record at NC State is enough evidence to believe he's a good enough competitor to get things straightened out. The guy he replaced, Brees, also bottomed out during his second full year as a starter.

by Michael Bean on Nov 14, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah, no need to apologize

He has certainly struggled at times this year, and he does need to step it up. I agree there. But, even this year, his numbers are comparable with Eli Manning's, and he doesn't have a couple receivers like Plax and Amani Toomer. He does have Gates and LT, which are better than Shockey (still a pretty good TE) and Brandon Jacobs.

Anyway, I think he'll be fine, but only time will tell.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Nov 14, 2007 5:49 PM EST up reply actions