Roethlisberger & Ward HOF?

by nitro on Dec 26, 2008 1:35 PM EST Comment 18 comments

Hello all,

I have been trolling on this site for awhile but finally decided to join today. I have a question, and i wanted to get the opinion of some of the fine folks on this site.

My younger brother is a HUGE Steeler fan, and the other nite he made the case that Big Ben would eventually be a Hall Of Fame QB, and that Ward was essentially a lock to be in.

I lIke watching the Steelers but I am not a die hard fan and believe that i have a more objective opinion, while i believe his opinion to be a bit bias.

In short, I don't think Ben stands a chance, while Hines is 50/50.

What is the concensus of Behind The Steel Curtain?

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Welcome Nitro

and the concensus is that we have discussed this before. Ben has a lot of years ahead of him. And since he is the most winningest QB in the shortest time, and the youngest to obtaina ring, it is a strong possibility. But, he has to keep on winning. Hines, as he is getting older now, doesn’t quite have the numbers to compete with the great HOF’s that are playing today. It’s a shame that huge blocks don’t count for squat cause we all know he’s the baddest ass WR there is. Great post and hope to see you more often.

by SoCalSteelerFan on Dec 26, 2008 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

exactly what i was going to say

though I would add that the fact that Dermontti Dawson still hasn’t gotten respect from the hall makes me think Hines is even less likely, sad to say

by syrsteelerfan on Dec 26, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think both get in

Hines’ numbers may not be comparable to Moss and Owens today, but by the time he retires it looks like he should be top10-15 range in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving TDs. Of course, it depends on how many more years he has, but at age 32, he should have about 3 more productive years left, I think. Check out this interesting blog entry for an analysis on WRs’ average productivity at various ages. In addition, Hines has a SB MVP award, which most of those ahead of him in career stats do not have.

Ben – I would say his bottom line is that he has more wins than any QB at his age. If he continues to win at close to this rate and last for another 7+ years, he’ll be in elite company in terms of wins for a QB. If he wins another two SBs, he’s in. If he wins only one more, he’s probably still in, unless he posts the worst QB rating of a winning QB again. But, if the next 10 years of his career are similar to the first five, he’ll have at least 3 SBs, he’ll be the all time winningest QB in NFL history, and he’ll have pretty good numbers. He’ll also be the most sacked QB in NFL history.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Dec 26, 2008 4:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hines Has better numbers

Than both Lynn Swan and John Stallworth, and has a Superbowl MVP. Where is there a case not for Ward?

To the tune of the classic children's song "This Old Man" (the part with nick nack patty whack)

Big Snack, Silverback, take the Dawg Pound's Bone, the Black and Gold sent the Brownies crying home.

by HighSchoolSteeler on Dec 26, 2008 4:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

The game has changed

since the days of Swann and Stallworth. Lots of WRs have big numbers these days, bigger than Hines. Pro Bowl selections may be a better metric, since the same number of WRs make the Pro Bowl every year. By that metric, Hines will come up short. I’d love it if they took blocking and playoff performances into account, but I doubt it will be enough.

by Steelin on Dec 26, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

only time will tell my friend

by tha1andonly57@aim.com on Dec 26, 2008 6:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

No to Hines

Hines should be in but he doesn’t have the catches or Pro Bowls for the HOF. It’s too early to tell for Ben, but at his current pace, a fifteen year career would net three Super Bowls twelve playoffs, and likely the most career wins of any QB. But a lot can happen in ten years.

Plus, there are too many Steelers in the Hall already and it will take more for a Steeler player to get in then a player from most other teams. Case in point: Donnie Shell may be the biggest HOF snub in history. He had 5 All Pro selections and retired as the career leader in INTs at his position. Also, see Dermontti Dawson.

by CarlWeathersMustache on Dec 26, 2008 7:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well...

i think he was a little bias on Big Ben but Hines Ward is a very underrated receiver. He deserves in but is like Andre Johnson, very underrated, but one of the best. Hines SHOULD be a lock in but isnt that popular…Big Ben probably wont get in because everyone thinks he sucks, they think that because he is constantly getting sacked and throws a lot of picks…but he is always pressured, which makes him throw more picks…for example, look at Peyton Manning, he has one of the best pass blocking o-lines in the NFL…im not saying he isnt good (manning) but he throws less picks because he has time…Big Ben doesnt have that time, thus throwing more picks…but if u look at it statistically, one SB win, the most winning QB in five years, he should be in…but the picks-which are not ALL of his fault-will hold him back.

"The grass may be greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed"
-PsycoSalameh43

by PsycoSalameh on Dec 26, 2008 10:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

My issue with ...

your post is that all you do is state that “my younger brother is biased and says they will, but I’m unbiased and don’t think they will.” You fail to lay out your case for saying why you think they won’t. Where are YOUR facts to support your assertion?

by tenthmtnman on Dec 26, 2008 10:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Sorry you took issue with my post, but....

I believe Hines has the talent of HOF wide reciever but in the end i believe the voters will not recognize or reward him. As for Ben….I didn’t really want to get get flamed on my 1st BTSC post by stating how i think Roethlisberger is a mediocre QB and how his superb defense covers up alot of his stink. Let’s not forget, both Trent Dilfer & Brian Griese have Super Bowl rings too.

by nitro on Dec 27, 2008 3:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say you got flamed ...

but I am about “level-headed thinking” and “thoughtful discussion.” I just would have preferred you explain the thought process that led you to your claim. I don’t think one Super Bowl will get BR in the HoF and I certainly wouldn’t compare BR’s track record with TD’s or BG’s. BR’s is much better and if he continues along the same path, he should certainly get consideration. The downside for him will be the group of QB’s eligible for consideration at the same time. Given the opportunity to choose between PM, TB and BR I’m sure the voters will pick PM or TB before they pick BR.

by tenthmtnman on Dec 27, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that...

Hines should get in. He holds the team records in every significant category, is a SB MVP, and, most importantly, is beloved by his team and its fans. He may not be first ballot material (not sure who he’d be going up against his first year eligible) but he should get in eventually. As for the anti-Steeler bias towards voters, by the time he is ready to be considered the 70s Steelers will be very much a thing of history. If the teams hes playing on win another SB, then it’ll will be hard to justify keeping the good players from those squads out simply because their team also had a previous golden age.
As for Ben, its wayyyy to early to make any judgement one way or the other. Look at Brett Favre- most talking heads today would say he’s a definite HOFer, but he’s only won 1 SB and has only one major playoff run this decade. He will likely retire with the NFL record in INTs, plus his parting with the Pack has left a sour taste in a lot of mouths. So even after a lengthy and productive career, there could still be a debate about a QBs HOF qualifications, so its too early to make any kind of rational argument about Ben and the HOF- pro or con.

by OhioSteel on Dec 26, 2008 11:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think there is much of a debate

about Favre. He will be in 5 years after he retires. Period. As for Hines, I seriously doubt it. He does not compare favorably to the wide receivers of his era (Moss, Owens, Harrison). Another SB ring and another SB MVP would go a long way in swaying votes, but I think even then, it will take a long time before he gets voted in. Heck, they are finally getting around to let Art Monk in.

As for BB, like you said, it’s too early to tell. Again, another SB ring (or two) would go a long way in swaying votes. Also, he’s on pace to challenge John Elway’s record for fourth quarter comebacks. He has 17 in just under 5 years. Elway had 47 in 16 years. While Elway also holds many other records, this particular record was the signature of his career. Also, BB does hold many rookie records, but that is just one season.

by Jonny B. on Dec 27, 2008 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Btw, as a rule of thumb for HOFers,

If you have to have a lengthy debate about a players credentials, they generally aren’t HOFers.

by Jonny B. on Dec 27, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

too early

Like it is said its too early to think HOF, while most people tend to say BB is overated I beg to differ. NO he isn’t PM or TB but who is. Those guys are the two best NFL QBs right now and PM has been in the league for 11 years. We forget how long he has been here but yea, more than twice as much as BB. It took PM 9 years to win his first SB, And BB won in his 2nd year. If anyone remembers PM he wasn’t that great when he started his career. BB is in year 5 so it is easy to see him getting better in the next 2-6 years. So if you look at BB’s first 5 years and PM 5 years while PM has more yards that’s the only thing and it also is because well Pitt likes to run more than Indy. But that’s not Ben’s fault, this is the first 4 years since been has only completed 4 years, don’t know what the rest of this year will look like.

Peyton Manning
1st year 26 TD 28 INT 3739 Yds 575 Att 56.7 Pct 71.2 QB Rat
2nd year 26 TD 15 INT 4135 Yds 533 Att 62.1 Pct 90.7 QB Rat
3rd year 33 TD 15 INT 4413 Yds 571 Att 62.5 Pct 94.7 QB Rat
4th year 26 TD 23 INT 4131 Yds 547 Att 62.7 Pct 84.1 QB Rat

Ben Roethlisberger
1st year 17 TD 11 INT 2621 Yds 295 Att 66.4 Pct 98.1 QB Rat
2nd year 17 TD 9 INT 2385 Yds 268 Att 62.7 Pct 98.6 QB Rat
3rd year 18 TD 23 INT 3513 Yds 469 Att 59.7 Pct 75.4 QB Rat
4th year 32 TD 11 INT 3154 Yds 404 Att 65.3 Pct 104.1 QB Rat

It looks like Ben is right on schedule and if he elevates his game like PM did then Ben will be a shoe – in for HOF.

by tannofsteel84 on Dec 28, 2008 1:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

6th year

It wasn’t until Peytons 6th year when he started to putting up crazy numbers. Years 7-9 were all about 100 QB rating for him. So Peyton made a leap his 6th year in the league, defenses started to look famliar and the game slowed down. While Ben will never have the yards peyton has its not hard to see him making a leap like peyton did, while he may and he may not all these numbers prove is that it is too early to talk abou whether been should be in the HOF or not, lets at least wait till next year to see if he makes that jump, I sure hope he does.

by tannofsteel84 on Dec 28, 2008 1:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hines…….sadly no – will not make it…….but he will be a much appreciated figure in Pittsburgh sports history for a long time. I don’t expect he will have to buy a beer in Steeltown ever again.
Big Ben will get in……if the organization puts the financial resources into protecting him. Imagine how Ben would look right now behind any one of 10 other O-lines. I’m not hating on our current line, but it, the o-line coach, and possibly the OC all need to be changed drastically, and soon, or Ben will be in pieces.
The development of Mendenhall, and perhaps Russell will also have a big effect on Ben’s future. Fast Willie’s failings and running of his mouth may see him leaving very soon for another team.
Ben has done really well given not only the O-line and the scheme, but also given the incredible schedule and the great defenses he’s had to go up against. The drive against the Ravens is the sort of thing which Ben should be judged on……….also, look at how he came back last year against Jacksonville in the play-off game. If not for a huge hold on Garrard’s run which wasn’t called, Ben would have given us the greatest comeback in Steeler play-off history, other than the miracle of the Immaculate Reception.

by SteelerNorth on Dec 28, 2008 12:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hines will absolutely make it.

The HOF recognizes people that play beyond their position. Hines makes plays whether he has the ball or not. He is an excellent receiver and has a great percentage for making plays when thrown to. He is clutch.

He owns the Steelers franchise marks for his position. He is poised to finish in the top end of all time numbers if he plays well for a few more years.

Bottom line is in an era full of big passing games (peyton manning, drew brees, mcnabbs) Hines has produced steadily and solidly over the years despite a run based team.

He gets in no question. Hes a super bowl MVP that never fails to succeed.

Ben on the other hand, has more to prove. Another Ring would truly help.

by Mechem on Dec 28, 2008 4:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs