Steelers Hope To Again Find Treasure In Other Team's Trash Heap

by Michael Bean (Blitz) on Mar 19, 2008 1:18 AM EDT in News Comment 22 comments

Ok, I've done a bit more reading about the Justin Hartwig signing and once again, it seems as if we might have just stumbled into another steal of a deal. That was the impression TheMostViolentTeam gave me in his initial mention of the development, but I wanted to dig a bit deeper for myself, specifically to find out why exactly was this guy cut in the first place? Should we really be excited about a guy that a mediocre team like Carolina cut? Well, the answer is yes, and the reasoning is similar to the one that applies to the Mewelde Moore situation in Minnesota.

Like Moore, Hartwig was a victim of circumstance. For Moore, it was an overly crowded backfield with potential league MVP Adrian Peterson and an overpaid Chester Taylor. For Hartwig in Carolina, it was the team deciding to go with last year's draft pick at center, Ryan Kalil. Here's a snippet of what I wrote about Kalil about this time last year:

At the Combine, the USC standout ran the 40 in 4.96, benched 225 pounds 34 times, and impressed scouts in just about every drill that measured footwork and agility.

The Steelers might be interested in Kalil because of Hasting's retirement. The Steelers were spoiled during the Bill Cowher era by the dominant and reliable play of Hartings and Dermonti Dawson. Neither rarely, if ever, missed a game, and the continuity that our O-Lines have demonstrated has to be largely attributed to the play of our centers.

Without Hartings, the Steelers may have even more trouble running the ball consistently than they did last year, when Hartings was clearly on his last leg physically. It might behoove us to draft a center that we know will be productive for years to come. Of course, we did acquire Sean Mahan in free agency, but we brought him in partly because of his versatility to play multiple positions along the line.

Most mock boards have Kalil going later than the 15th pick, but it's all about needs. If we decide we absolutely must solidify our offensive line for the future, it's entirely plausible that we raise some eyebrows by taking either Kalil or Staley in the middle of the 1st Round.

Kalil was the first center selected in the 2007 draft. I'm not sure how his rookie campaign went, but it's clear they are ready to put their faith in him. There was talk about Hartwig being moved to guard, but apparently they opted to go in another direction alltogether.

Here's what I now know about Hartwig:

He missed all but two games of 2006 with a groin injury

He has LOTS more experience in the NFL than Sean Mahan EVER did. Hartwig has been a starter since year two in the NFL, starting with Tennessee, then with Carolina. He started 47 of 48 possible games in '03-'05, and 15 more in '07. Mahan's been in the league fewer years and has played multiple positions during that time. He started 16 games for the Bucs in '06, the year before coming to Pittsburgh, but only started 8 of the 32 games in his first two years in the league before that.

It should be noted that all of Hartwig's starts have come at center, so it's safe to assume that we're going with him at the center position unless Stapleton or Phillips can beat him out in camp somehow.

This move also has implications for the rest of the line. With a center now seemingly in place, what do we do with the guard and tackle positions? Can we assume that Kendall Simmons will not be switched to center? Does Mahan compete for a starting role at guard? Or, do we start Mahan at guard and hope Colon improves at tackle? Or do we move Colon inside, use Mahan as a jack-of-all trades reserve, and break-in a tackle behind Trai Essex, Max Starks and Marvel Smith?

We'll have to see. Here's the deal though, we have options guys. There seemed like absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel in regards to our offensive line situation in January. Things still may be bleak. It's not clear yet. But with the draft still ahead of us, it appears as if we may actually have more capable competing bodies than there are roster spots for them all. What if M. Smith returns healthy, we re-sign a motivated Starks, Kemoeatu develops, Colon gets moved to guard and progresses, Essex remains a viable backup option, Hartwig stabilizes the center position, and Simmons returns to form after a year hiatus? Well, things would be interesting. That's before even mentioning guys like Jason Capizzi, Darnell Stapleton, and whatever linemen we may have our eye on in April's Draft.

Should be a competitive, interesting summer for this particular unit.

Discuss.

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OL

One thing is for sure, the coaching staff should have some decisions to make now. It seems like to me every spot could be a battle except left tackle and at least one of the losers will be cut (ie Okobi last year).

One thing that I hope this doesn't trigger though is Colon staying at tackle. I really don't want to see him on the outside again and if he stays at tackle just so that they won't have to cut either Simmons or Mahan I'll be pretty disapointed.

by cgolden on Mar 19, 2008 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Simmons

I just can't see Simmons not being given a starting nod at a guard position this year. The steelers don't usually give up on contracts after one year. Looking at Ike Taylor who massively underperformed after getting a good contract in 06 and then came back and had what I would consider a probowl year. I figure the Steelers give Simmons every chance to be starting RG. Putting a more solid center and right tackle around him will obviously make him look better as well.

My guess is that this has the Steelers really playing hardball with Starks. He's no longer necessary, he'd be nice and if they can get him to a 4 year deal for reasonable money I'm sure they'd love it, but I can't see them paying much for him.

by Chicago Steeler on Mar 19, 2008 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

OL

I guess I missed all the shenanigans last night. From what I've heard, Hadnot is young and an excellent athlete, but inconsistent; an upside guy, if you will. Hartwig has been a solid center who had a very serious injury (one AOL Panthers fan described it as his whole groin muscle being pulled off his bone), and who has not made a full recovery. Hadnot may be the better prospect, but the nice thing about Hartwig is that he a pure center, which we need. Hadnot would have been another "guard that can play center" signing, and we need something more definite. Hartwig won't be great, but I think he may be solid, especially if you put two bulls like Kemo and Colon on either side of him. We also got him for a very modest price. We still need our future center, but maybe he can last us a few years.

I heard it mentioned that we'd save $2.175M if we cut Mahan, but this isn't true. According to SalCap's website, we would have to pay 4 years of the signing bonus ($3.2M) this year, instead of the $2M. We could save half a mil by cutting him after June 1st, paying half this year and half next year. That would save us a lot of money next year, as well. On the other hand, Mahan would be a better backup than Simmons, since we know he would be decent at all three IOL positions. Simmons' deal is bigger, but after June 1st, we'd save money this year and next by cutting him. It'd be wasting a lot of money, but if he's not going to improve a lot and start, we'd be wasting more money keeping him around. I think training camp is going to be very important for both of those guys.

SalCap also has details of Ben's contract up, including THREE $15.8 mil cap hits in the MIDDLE of the contract. I don't know if the deal is designed to be renegotiaed or what, but that's lots of moolah for multiple years. Uh, let's draft some OL's.

by BadMaafala on Mar 19, 2008 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for clarifying

I was the one who said we would save $2.175, but pay $800k. I was under the impression that we would count $800k for four dead years, equalling your $3.2, but that the base we wouldn't have to pay, which this year is $2.175.

I guess the question is, would we still count $800 for each of the next four years, even though he is cut, or do we then have to cap count all $3.2? This is good learning.

by maryrose on Mar 19, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Capguy

I emailed the guy at Steelersalarycap to see what the cap hits would be for both Mahan and Simmons both this year and in the future, so we'll see when he is able to answer.

Hey guys another thing to think about, the OL as it's currently comprised is going to count $25,959,166 against the cap (22% of the team as a whole) in 2008.

by cgolden on Mar 19, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cap hits of cutting Mahan & Simmons

Per Steelersalarycap:

Mahan: pre June 1; dead money $3.2 million on the 08 cap - after June 1; $800K dead money in 08 and $2.4 million of dead money in 09.

Simmons pre June 1; dead money $6.28 million on the 08 cap - after June 1; $1.57million of dead in 08 and $4.71 million of dead in 09.

Simmons' contract may keep him from getting cut and they may not have the cap room to cut either prior to June 1st. Mahan looks like the last in line heading into camp though being that he'd only cost $800K this year.

by cgolden on Mar 19, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I stand corrected

All Hail SteelersSalaryCap!

by BadMaafala on Mar 19, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've learned yet again from this site

If you cut a guy before June 1, you must put his whole pro-rated bonus on this year's cap. If you wait until June 1 to cut, you only have to count this year's pro-rated bonus against the cap, but you must make up the rest on next year's cap. Kill me now or kill me next year, but you can't spread that cap commitment more than two years.

by maryrose on Mar 19, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

here was my prediction from February

mine
Starks, Kemouatu, Draft/FA, Simmons, Colon

by nerves of steel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:45:25 PM EDT

I still have an inkling that Marvel Smith's back problems and cap number are going to catch up with him. I could be totally wrong here. But with Hartwig in the fold it allows Mahan to battle with Kemo for lg and maybe Colon with Simmons at rg--IIRC, didn't Simmons held off both Kemo and Colon at rg last season. I don't think he is going anywhere.

So is there a consensus that, barring injury, C and RG are set?

by nerves of steel on Mar 19, 2008 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Consensus

I'm assuming everyone is 100% healthy going into the season when I say this.

Smith is the LT and that's the only position that isn't up for grabs. Every other position should be a fight to the death. Simmons and Hartwig may come into camp as front runners for RG & C (respectively) but they'll still have to prove thier worth in camp. Starks will probably be the right tackle (especially if he's getting nearly $7 mil) and his only competition might come from a draft pick. The real battles should be for the three interior spots.

Did Colon play much at RG in the preseason? I thought he was working primarily at RT, I could be wrong though.

by cgolden on Mar 19, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tend to agree

someone mentioned Ike Taylor. Simmons will be given another chance this year, if he has a bad year like that again, halfway thru the year he won't be starting for sure. if he steps up and returns to the decent form he showed in previous seasons than he'll keep his spot. he's got to be motivated now since we have what seems like 50 "solid"-type guys at the guard spot. not including if we draft Brandon Albert. O-Line is starting to look good, now let's get some young big guys on the Defensive side.

by TheMostViolentTeam on Mar 19, 2008 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Eternal

As they say - Hope springs eternal.. On the half full side you could almost say maybe we could hold off on utilizing draft picks on the O line this year. We look deep and I really believe competition brings out the best in folks. I don't think there is one guaranteed position on that line right now. It's not like other years where you have a few questions. I think the whole thing is wide open. And with so many guys signed to short contracts people will be out to bust ass.

by smashmouthsteel on Mar 19, 2008 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

haha

i basically just wrote on entire diary on this premise. great minds think alike probably.

by TheMostViolentTeam on Mar 19, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

this is kinda how I'm viewing things, though I still would like us to use a draft pick or two still.

by Michael Bean (Blitz) on Mar 19, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Short term contracts

Yeah, we have a lot of decent OL's, but they all have questions. Just like on the DL, we don't need day 1 starters, we need the future. Colon is hopefully our future (left?) guard, where he'd be solid in both phases, and if Kemo wins a starting job this year, I'd lock him up. But we need a future LT and C and to solve the Starks mystery. We could (should) still draft 2 OL's and cut Mahan, Simmons, or Stapleton.

by BadMaafala on Mar 19, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

best case scenario

I know it's a long shot but I'm still holding out hope that Stapleton is the future at center.

by cgolden on Mar 19, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pretty much agree

I see a lot of experienced and perhaps capable guys on the O-line depth chart and there is some reason to be optimistic of a better overall performance this year. The Hartwig signing is a really nice move. I'm not overly confident that any rookie we draft will come in and start right away, so improvement will have to be the result of veterans playing better. Playing time is up for grabs and it's reasonable to believe that spirited competition and a better job by players AND coaches will result in improved play.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment and follow up on badmaafala's thoughts, I'm not convinced we have a lot of talent in that big depth chart. I don't see many building blocks for the line we need in front of Ben for the future. Ben is always going to be a QB who hangs onto the ball a little too long in many situations. That's just the way he is and I like the big plays he makes in those situations. But it means having a better pass-blocking O-line than someone like Brady or Manning needs.

The guy I feel most confident of being a starter two years from now is Colon at guard. I think he's a tough kid who works hard and will be a good guard for many years. J.J. Cooper at Fanhouse has written before that Simmons would be better at LG than RG because of his mobility, but he has to raise his game to stick around for the duration of his contract. If he can't start, then as far as I'm concerned his whole contract is dead money and it would be cheaper to take the cap hit and cut him or trade him than overpay him for four more years of lousy performance. Hartwig is probably a capable two-year stopgap, Smith might not be around for more than a year and no one knows for sure what's going on with Starks, but he is hardly a world-beater even playing his best. This is a young veteran who basically gave away his starting position because he couldn't stay in shape or approach his job with enough professionalism to beat out Colon. I really don't get all the excitement about having him back other than he provides insurance. The delay in his status doesn't convince me the Steelers have any long-term plans for him. Kemo has signed his RFA tender but if he doesn't start, there's no way he will be around in 2009. Same with Essex. Stapleton and Capizzi are kind of wishful thinking projects in that they were both undrafted and so far haven't shown anything except enough potential to hang around and collect a minimum paycheck. Mahan is probably a useful backup but we are overpaying him if that's his role.

I'm not saying we can't somehow put all these pieces together and come up with a decent O-line. But I want a better than decent line in front of Ben. I want a line with a couple of all-pro calibre guys and the rest big and nasty and motivated to keep No. 7's jersey clean. We need more talent in the group competing for jobs. That means batting 1.000 in the draft this year and next and coming up with at least three future starters by 2010.

by steeler lifer on Mar 19, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a little more optimistic, Lifer

There is nothing in your assessment that is unreasonable. But I refuse to dismiss the fact that three of the members of this group were starters on a championship team. Unless you want to make the case that they were doing it with blue smoke and mirrors I think that they have shown the ability to perform at a very high level. Two issues that I think have been overlooked or deemphasized in the ongoing conversation about the O-line is coaching and chemistry.

The core of good coaching is not simply selecting the best talent available. Indeed, if I have the best talent around coaching often becomes irrelevant. Just send guys onto the field and yell 'sic em!' Great coaching (and I think Tomlin has all the potential to be a great head coach) is the ability to develop and leverage the available talent to highest level possible. The issue to me is not that the personnel is not sufficiently talented. In one or two cases that may very well be true. The real question is can the coaching staff create the kinds of movtivational and schematic conditions where this group has an opportunity to be able to compete at a high level (in several cases, at a high level again). That certainly includes how each individual player responds to the challenges placed before them this year. But it also begs several other questions. Specifically; the ability of Tomlin and Colbert to evaluate successfully and have a group that have the potential for competitive success, or are they simply making the best of a bad situation. Quite frankly, some of the issues raised about these players strike at the heart of the personnel acquisition strategy of the franchise, as well in its ability to develop talent. Second, The schemes of the OC. One thing that I've heard no discussion of is the fact that one of the changes Arians implemented last year was that Ben would make the line calls rather than the center. Is Ben any good at that? Could that have been a contributing factor to the apparent poor performance of the line? We are building an offense around essentially one person. Perhaps the most talented, but also in many ways the least experienced of the bunch. Finally, there is the offensive line coach himself and whether he's up to the task. Something we'll have a much better idea about in about a year.

Then there is the issue of unit chemistry. Hartings was the greybeard of that group, and losing him was more than his considerable (probowl) talent. Add to this mix, a distracted leader (Faneca), a new coaching staff with new schemes and new demands (like protecting the qb for over five seconds) and they very easily look very bad. But this is the same unit that allowed Ben to have the number two quarterback rating in the league and for FWP to be the leading rusher in the league until his injury. And I argue that you can't do that with a totally incompetent o-line. Most every other position can perform their tasks without being but so dependent upon others. O-line is more fragile in this regard. That's why I'm encouraged by the Hartwig signing. My guess is if he and the others are healthy, that by mid August these concerns will largely go away.

by RickVa on Mar 19, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

points taken

I agree, it's far from a hopeless situation. I didn't mean to characterize it as that. I certainly like the way the FO has gone about the business of identifying the weak link immediately (Mahan) and making a solid acquisition, rather than sugar-coating things and saying they expect Mahan to improve with a year under his belt.

Also agree with your assessment of other factors that contributed to what has to be considered overall mediocre play by the O-line last year. Play selection and coaching played a part and Ben did not necesarily make things easy at times, but it still comes down to athletes making plays and working together.

Maybe we've been spoiled Rick, but I think we have seen in our own history that the Steelers have been more competitive when their O-line was settled and had at least one stud as a leader and a couple other guys that were were right there among the best in the league at their positions, even if they didn't get a lot of recognition for it. If Marvel is healthy he certainly fits in there as a very solid and generally underrated player. Maybe he will be back to his old form and maybe he will get a new contract, but it's just as likely he will be gone in a year's time. I think we're in a transition phase as we look for a guy who will be the new leader and a couple of other guys who can develop together for a number of years. In the meantime there's going to be some inevitable shuffling around as the coaches try to fit the pieces together and young guys learn the ropes.

I'd love to see everything come together in mid-August and perhaps it will in terms of who the starters will be. We don't need a line of all-pros to be successful because there's a lot of talent on the field too, but we definitely need a couple guys to step up immediately and either rebound or develop into better players. But in the bigger picture, I think it's more likely to be mid-August 2010 before our O-line is really what it should be, which is among the league's best units protecting a guy who could be the league's best QB.

by steeler lifer on Mar 20, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Viewing our signings so far

It seems obvious that the Steelers FO and Tomlin agree on the needs, which are the same needs that we've been discussing for months here. They've addressed our most immediate needs and given themselves more flexibility for the draft.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Mar 19, 2008 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs