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Does Ben Roethlisberger Really Hold the Ball too Long?

New reader jason97673 offers up his second analytical look at Big Ben vs. the rest of NFL QB crop. Check out his first thought-provking entry here. Though the data he offers below certainly calls into quesiton some of the preconceptions many of us hold about Roethlisberger and his procilivites in the pocket, I don't think the data is quite that black and white. Another fine offering though from BTSC's newest contributor. I look forward to some of the comments and questions, and I plan on asking several myself about what exactly these numbers may mean and how they should be interpreted.

-Blitz-

..Or does it just appear that way?

I know a lot of people think he should throw the ball away more. And sometimes he should, but statistically Roethlisberger throws the ball away more than most QBs.

A lot of times we're screaming at the T.V for Ben to get rid of the ball quicker right? Well, I guess you could say he either does need to get rid of it quicker or throw it away.

I agree with the getting rid of it quicker argument. But there could be a bad side of getting rid of it quicker(more later). However, others use the "Throw it away argument" which in my opinion is ridiculous. I believe it only looks like Ben holds onto the ball too long because two seconds after the snap, there is already someone in his face and he needs to start running.

Point is, we don't want our Quarterback to change in this area. Many of his big plays have come from holding onto the ball and not throwing it away.

Palmer was sacked only 17 times last year which would indicate he has a great OLine. However, after reading their boards, and forums, it seems as if there OLine is really bad, but his sack numbers were one of the best in the NFL. I am assuming since I have not watched many cincy games except against the Steelers, that he faces a lot of pressure, but gets rid of quickly to avoid the sack.

In turn, what happened? He tossed 20 interceptions and had I believe 8 or 9 returned for touchdowns.

So the question is, would you rather have Roethlisberger take a sack, or get rid of it quickly when hes not ready and possibly throw an interception? You can overcome sacks, but you can not always overcome interceptions. If you get sacked, unless on third down, you still have another shot for the first. Interception? That drives over. Not too mention, Roethlisberger is unbelievable on third down.

Now, the point of the post. According to sports illustrated, these are the total "Intentional Throw Away Passes" and total attempts which gives you how often he throws a pass away. (Only using last years numbers)

Brady - 16/578 - Every 36 passes
Palmer - 8/575 - Every 71 passes
Roethlisberger - 11/404 - Every 36 passes
Rivers - 24/460 - Every 19 passes
Brees - 14/652 - Every 46 passes
Romo - 2/520 - Every 260 passes
Manning - 13/515 - Every 39 passes

As you can see, he throws the ball away enough. Out of the QBs I looked at, only Rivers throws the ball away more. And is way above other QBs like Palmer, and Romo. Even Favre who is not shown here, threw it away only 3 times last year.

The idea of him getting rid of quicker is a legitimate possibility, but as I displayed with Palmer, it could have consequences.

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A few thoughts...
First, those guys who drop back three quick steps and then release will not be sacked at all...It's hard for me to believe Cincy's line was better after losing Steinbach...I was shocked to read where 8 or 9 passes from Palmer were TDs.  That's startling...Throwing it away doesn't mean taking the chance; It means putting it in the Monongahela...Ben indeed contributed to his sack total, but so did the porous line. With 93 in two years, there's enough blame to go around...

by maryrose on Apr 6, 2008 8:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I am just pointing out that Cincy only gave up 17 sacks this year which on paper looks very good. But part of the reason why, would be that he got rid of the ball much more quickly so that he did not take a sack, which in turn might have made him get rid of the ball quicker then usually when he is not prepared, resulting in Interceptions.

In 2005, his OLine was very good, so he could either take his time or get rid of it quickly and still be productive.

In my opinion, If Ben was a pocket passer that got rid of the ball quickly, he would still probably get sacked as much as he did this year, because he wont be able to move around as much or break off tackles., but he would get rid of the ball quicker. So I think it evens out.

Part of the reason is also our WR routes. I know his first two years in the league, all of our WR routes seem to go deep, hence Roethlisbergers 8.9 YPA. This year, they shortened the routes much more.

But it also appears Ben is ALWAYS looking 20-30 yards downfield. The one complaint I have is, I wish he would look at his check down more. Now that we have Moore, maybe he will.

As for Palmer, yes a lot of his did go for touchdowns, he had 3 returned in the Arizona game by itself, one wiped out by penalty. But Ill double check that.

But I am simply pointing out he throws the ball away alot, more than most QBs.

by jason97673 on Apr 6, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree 100% with
Jason on Ben checking down more often...so many of Brady and Manning's drives are kept alive by checking down...and some of these times, the check down is intentional, it's not a spontaneous thing...you can see Brady just waiting for a little pressure to come and then, check down to Falk, who breaks a tackle and gets 7 yards on a 3rd and six...how many countless times have we seen this?  It drives me crazy...

Conversley, I rarely (very rarely) see Ben check down intentionally...if he does, he is scrambling and by chance the RB is in his vision, and he dumps it off (usually for a 3rd down conversion).

I hope we use M.Moore in this role...this guy is very dynamic and elusive...I'm excited to see him make some big time plays for us.

Check downs are huge...you get an elusive guy in space...very hard for the defense to tackle someone like M.Moore one on one...

Check it down Beb...check it down...

by SteelerMike on Apr 6, 2008 9:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Parkers first Career start..
In his first career start against Tennessee? Ben checked down to him, and Parker took it 50 yards. Using Parker on check downs would be huge.

by jason97673 on Apr 6, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey jason
get at me by e-mail, if you're interested in doing some more stuff like this (good stuff you've been posting), been working on a whole series of stats based articles for the site.  kevgats@gmail.com

by TheMostViolentTeam on Apr 6, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Stuff Jason
I enjoyed your first post on Big Ben. I agree with you. Ben certainly needs to improve like everyone on the field. He could get rid of the ball quicker at times and take less sacks but...
I do not believe the biggest problem is Ben holding the ball too long. The big plays he makes come from his patience and improvisation skills. IMO many of the sacks come from;
  1. A porous O line that does not give the QB enough time enough of the time and
  2. An O coordinator that would rather run the plays he wants to run as opposed to running plays that match up to the talent on the field. Many of Arians calls the last year were deep drops that left Ben hanging out to dry when their was no or little protection. I wondered aloud all year why we ran so many long developing plays instead of quick hitting pass plays with an O line playing like it was a block of swiss chesses.
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Apr 7, 2008 8:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed
Ben still has to grow and continue to mature as a QB but he needs help from his OC. Too many plays last year were 5 step drops and deep passing plays that just didn't give Ben or the porous OL a chance.

by cgolden on Apr 7, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not always a problem
I have no problem most of the time with how long Ben holds the ball.  The sacks are just the flip side of the big plays he makes as he improvises.

Plus, what does it matter if he throws the ball away on third down.  Incomplete  or sack, the drive is still over.

The big weakness is his inability to change his style/mindset based on game situation.  (Part of the blame for this has to go to coaches with their play-calling).  Early in the game, it makes sense to trade a couple of sacks for a big play downfield.  But late in the game, there are series where the game can be won with a couple of first downs.  BR tends to still look for the big play in those situations instead of the quick checkdown, or scramble.  Just think of how many games we've lost in the final minutes after holding the lead. Those could be victories if the coaches and QB learn how to just move the chains.

by craighenry on Apr 7, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

nice post, great read
In my mind, you have to separate throwing the ball away vs forcing a pass and it is a breakdown that dares statistical analysis for taming.
And maybe more importantly, camera angles, editing/cutting go a long way to determining how long a qb "appears" to hold the ball and whether they should get rid of it. The game looks a ton different inside the qb's helmet, behind the oline than it does watching at home- and part of that is the production supervisor showing the game, rather than really showing the nitty-gritty of individual plays as they unfold (I would love to see coach's tape of games- sell it to me nfl!)

I am not surprised at all by Romo's low number- he is a quarterback who really, really needs to get rid of it more. It is great entertainment watching him scramble, scramble, scramble- but the end result is always far too impacted by pure luck.

by vherub on Apr 7, 2008 11:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

camera angles
With all of the different camera angles, I've wondered when we'll see and tiny camera mounted to the QBs helmet somehow (ie like the catchers cam in baseball). I'm sure they'd have to work something out with the hits a QB can take but I'm sure they can figure out a way. How awesome would it be to see exactly what a QB sees as he takes the shotgun snap and reads a defense?

by cgolden on Apr 7, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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