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Spygate

I hesitate to write about this because the topic is so negative, but I think there is sufficient new information and info that has impacted the Steelers that we would be remiss to not at least review it. This article appeared in today's Washington Post. The Tribune-Review also has an article as well

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403517.html

In terms of a highlight of an interview that will be aired on HBO tomorrow night, Walsh quotes an unidentified Patriot QB as saying that the information gained from the tapings allowed them to successfully anticipate 75% of the defensive plays that were run against them. On NFL Total Access (NFL Network) they had some of the tapes for review. Marshall Faulk and Rod Woodson confirmed that the information contained would have provided a significant competitive advantage. Arlen Specter in explaining why he would push forward with an investigation anticipated why the Rooneys (and Tomlin) would take such a dismissive attitude; the integrity of the League is at stake. This would be more important than any gain that would be made by outing the Patriots.

Based on the information I've seen so far, this is my reaction. I don't want to hear anything else about how great Bill Belicheck is as a coach, or for that matter how great Tom Brady is as a QB. Knowing what the defense is running 75% of the time, hell, Maryrose's daughter could be a Pro Bowl quarterback. This is on the order of steroid abuse or corked bats in baseball. I have said on earlier occasions that Spygate will not go away, and I think this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

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Honestly, I'm sick of this story.

I’m going to ignore, for the moment, the fact that I think this videotaping rule is stupid because it’s almost entirely unenforceable. After all, look not only at how long it took for them to get caught, but consider how one enforces a rule that officially says certain parts of the field are allowed to be videotaped while others aren’t.

At this point, there’s really no question as to what the Patriots did aside from the extent to which it was done. Either way, I don’t see much benefit to taking this further since I don’t think there’s much the league can do at this point beyond the public shaming the Pats have already gotten/are getting (and the loss of draft picks). More pointedly, I’d rather we not become like some of those Seahawks fans that are still angry at their Super Bowl loss. I like to think we’re better than that.

Either way, I conclude with one question to people that still care; what do you really hope to come out of all of this? Or, more realistically, what possibly could come out of all this?

by HinesField on May 15, 2008 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i just dont know what to believe at this point

Too many different sides of the story coming out. For me to speculate on what’s true and what isn’t would probably just make me look foolish.

But, i agree RickVa that this isnt going away just yet, no matter how hard Goodell tries to make it (btw, am I alone in my growing dislike of Goodell?).

The one thing I would say is that I find it pathetic that they would find satisfaction in being victorious this way (if allegations are all true). It’s not like money’s on the line really. Stadiums are full in Detroit, Arizona, and all the other losing franchises. Contracts aren’t based on winning, etc.

I don’t condone, but I can have an easier time understanding, if the financial viability of the organization rode on them winning. It doesn’t really.

by Blitzburgh on May 15, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NFL should hire

Officials to monitor the video taping like they do with monitoring the radio feeds from the coaches and QB. They do that so they do not flip on the frequency of the other teams radio and hear their plays. Why not have an extra two Officials monitor live feed from their camera to a TV during the game. That way cheating will be enforced and the teams can have the video staff that they want. seems like we should stop throwing around the negatives must think of solutions. Which is why the steroid thing thing went out of wack because no one was coming up with a solution. I bet if Goodell came up with something to ensure the public that this will no longer happen by coming up with some plan for a solution, then i think we would not be in the position we are in now.

* till next time wave those towels proud

by LiveinDCbutsteelerfanbyheart on May 15, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

somthing they

should of talked about during the owners meeting rather than worrying about if someones hair is to long or not

* till next time wave those towels proud

by LiveinDCbutsteelerfanbyheart on May 15, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Solutions

The NFL did come up with solutions to this. I’m sure I’ll forget some, but I remember that these:

1. They implemented the radio in a defensive players helmet, to eliminate sign stealing.
2. They instituted random league checks of what used to be considered internal team areas, like lockerrooms, press boxes, etc.

So they did come with some ideas to keep it from happening again.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 15, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

radio in defenseive of players helmet been

on the agenda for a long time… just finally found a reason to pull the trigger this year.

random league checks, dont like it NFL has money hire some people to watch it all the time.

* till next time wave those towels proud

by LiveinDCbutsteelerfanbyheart on May 15, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True but

if they are assigned to watch a certain location, the cheaters may just find a new location. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were already trying to use smaller cameras that are harder to detect.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 15, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that

I’ve refrained from talking about and perpetuating this story for some of the reasons HinesField mentioned. It’s all speculation, and it doesn’t make us look good to keep complaining about it. I did see Walsh’s comment, though, about knowing what the defense was doing 75% of the time, and it certainly does make the competitive advantages a little more concrete. I also liked his calling out of all the denials of the Pats people. It’s good to see a seemingly credible person with insider info talk so bluntly about the Patriots.

At this point, though, what more is there to do? They’ve been given what most seem to think is a fair punishment, their SB record has a stain on it, and the league is going to enforce the rules a little better and add the helmet on defense. There’s no more good that will come out of it, so why is Specter still pressing? This story is over.

by BadMaafala on May 15, 2008 4:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Patriots continue to get punished

as this story continues to get play, as we continue to say that the issue should be put to rest. There is nothing like one’s good name. Integrity has no price. If you think about it, the thing we are most proud of as Steeler fans is that our organization continues to act with class, dignity and integrity in all phases of it operations.

Belichick was considered an a-hole to begin with, and now he is considered an unscrupulous a-hole. New England’s wounds continue to fester and are self-inflicted. Their punishment goes far beyond $750K and a first-round pick.

by maryrose on May 15, 2008 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right there

Every time it’s brought up, the Pats legacy is tarnished again. And, it doesn’t matter what they accomplish after this, that stain will still be on this group of players and coaches.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 15, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spygate

I am interested in this story to some extent because I would like to know exactly what happened. The problem is that it is unlikely that we will know. However, what we learned yesterday certainly seemed to lend credence to the idea that the Pats gained a greater advantage than Belichick or Goodell are willing to admit.

Apart from curiosity, I keep going back and forth on this. On one hand, I don’t want to think that this could grow to the point that it will damage the NFL and take it down the path of boxing and horseracing (i.e. turn fans off so much that it becomes irrelevant). I don’t think that is very likely anyway, but that is somethat Gregg Easterbrook (TMQ on ESPN) said may happen. Sure, he’s using hyperbole, but he also has a point. Both of those sports used to be much more popular. On the other hand, I think Belichick is scum and deserves to be banned from the NFL, not just fined. But, short of some astronomical corruption being shown in the league that costs everyone a lot more than we expect now, I don’t see that happening. And, I don’t want to see a huge scandal in the league. So, at this point, I would rather that Specter let it go. I don’t see that there is much more to find, and another investigation will likely turn into something very like the Mitchell report. There will be little new evidence, just more speculation.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 15, 2008 4:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wish you were right

But I think it will be a big deal with the press for awhile. I was shocked quite frankly that the NFL Network which is for all practical purposes the house organ of the league was pursuing this so aggressively. I’m with Blitz concerning Goodell. After playing Mr. Tough Guy with Vick and Pacman, he rolled over for management, and opened the door for this mess. If he had taken a harder line for what is a much greater threat to the league, I think we avoid this circus.

by RickVa on May 15, 2008 4:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Goodell

I think he made the miscalculation of not realizing Specter would get involved. He thought he would deal with it quickly, and harshly (at least in historical league terms), and it would go away. But, I think if he knew this would have happened, he would have done a longer investigation, and given out an even harsher punishment.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 15, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why Won't It Go Away

Just supposition on my part, but I think Sen. Specter has given the NFL a good way out of the PR mess it has fumbled and created.

Many of us believe that NE and the NFL have not been transparent about what has occurred with regard to “Spygate” and will continue to doubt whatever is said by the NFL and NE. The easiest way out would be a small but powerful, independent investigative commission. If this commission was given sufficient authority, and every NFL fan knew that all the findings would be made available to the press, I believe that this matter would quickly go away.

As of now the disclosures made by NE and the NFL have only perpetuated the belief that something(s) are being hidden from us, whether by team(s) or league wide. e.g. if the investigation involved minimally a representative from the NFL, the NFLPA and was headed by an experienced independent jurist, who thoroughly checked all the teams, especially NE, this would be probably be sufficient. The NFL should be as transparent as possible with the commission and its findings. Please note this commission should be small and private, sort of like a mini supreme court.

While I don’t believe cheating will ever go away, the NFL has probably done as much as it could; with the threat of sanctions, with the use of the defense helmet, checking those spurious signals and self policing.

by manchesterheights on May 15, 2008 5:44 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Nice thoughts. You a lawyer by any chance? Well said. That’s exactly my thoughts on the matter and precisely why I’m very distrustful of Goodell. Just seems like he’s willing to preserve the momentum the NFL has at any cost. Kinda reminds me of what happened in the mid-late 90s with the HR Chase as baseball was trying to get butts back into seats in the ballpark and TV sets tuned in.

by Blitzburgh on May 15, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Belichick cheated. He admitted to Goodell back in September that he had been taping signals since he became head coach. What he did was wrong, but he admitted to it openly when confronted. Leaving the arrogance angle alone for the moment, how has New England “perpetuated the belief that something is being hidden?”

I know that ESPN in general, and Mark Schlereth in particular sure are perpetuating that belief. Walsh specifically stated that he kept each tape in his possession until after the game when he would then hand it in to Mr. Adams. For Schlereth to then speculate afterwards how the Patriots could STILL have used the tape during the game is just that—-speculation. And why? Either ESPN accepts Walsh as a credible witness, and he had a lot of legal motivation to tell the truth at this point, or it doesn’t, but they can’t have it both ways.

As far as a small and private commission to take this matter further, it wouldn’t work simply because no matter what Sen. Specter says about the NFL independently investigating , he wants his grandstanding hand in this particular cookie jar. It couldn’t be private because who would believe the findings? Conspiracy theorists would dig their heels in even harder, demanding that the findings be out in the open for all to see.

Would this commission focus solely on the Patriots? I won’t cite the “everyone does it” argument, but can everyone reading this honestly believe that their particular team has done everything completely aboveboard? Was no one in any other organization thanking the Good Lord that it was the Patriots who got caught for doing something fishy and not them? Walsh pointed out that while he was filming one afternoon, a cameraman from another team (rumored to be from the Jets, but I can’t verify it) had his own camera set up and was filming the Patriots signals. You can bet that if there were any tapes in that team’s possession, they’ve certainly been disposed of by now.

All I’m saying is that this Walsh meeting was supposed to clarify whether the Patriots had ever filmed the Ram’s walkthrough practice. That was all. There was no tape, but that was never going to end it for Specter.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on May 15, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Revisionist history, anyone?

Goodell didn’t admit that Belichick had been taping since 2000 until Walsh forced him to in February. Belichick didn’t admit to anything other than a different interpretation of the rules, which is still his story. That doesn’t line up with the fact that Walsh was being told not to get caught. So, don’t try to act like all of the sudden after he was caught, Belichick took it like a man and owned up to his errors. He still hasn’t.

You say you won’t cite the “everyone does it” argument, and then proceed to act though “everyone does it”. The fact is there is no evidence of any other team doing it but the Jets (verified in the original post’s linked article where Specter said that Walsh told him it was the Jets), but there is ample evidence of the Pats doing it. If there is an outside investigation, they should investigate the entire league, but at this point there is no reason to expect that any other teams would be implicated, and certainly not in the extremely organized and systematic way that the Pats were doing it.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 16, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No "revisionist history" according to ESPN's Chris Mortensen

I should have included this quote from the ESPN Timeline

Sept. 14, 2007: On ESPN Radio’s Mike & Mike show, Mortensen reports the league might not close the book on the controversy and might continue to “review” it. Mortensen suggests that the videotaping of the Sept. 9 game against the Jets could be the tip of the iceberg, and that the Patriots’ practices could include jamming the radio frequency in opponents’ head-sets, and miking the Pats’ defensive linemen to hear the offense’s audibles and the cadence between the center and the quarterback. … Mortensen also reports that Belichick has privately told Goodell he has been taping opponents’ signals since he became the Pats’ head coach in 2000.

Needless to say, the ridiculous additional allegations regarding radio frequencies,etc… have all been proven false.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on May 16, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok

That still doesn’t sound like the upright, facing the music Belichick that you tried to make him sound like. He told Goodell privately, and then Goodell never said more about it. Belichick may have admitted that privately to Goodell, but it wasn’t confirmed publicly, by Goodell or Belichick. In fact, this quote lends credence to the idea that the league was trying to sweep it under the rug, especially in light of the fact that Goodell didn’t admit the taping went back to 2000 until he was forced to. I had forgotten about that part of it. I agree with Blitzburgh, that my opinion of Goodell is dropping more and more.

As far as the radio frequencies, where have those allegations been proven false? As far as I know, they were never even addressed, which is another problem with how the league has handled it. If you have seen evidence that this was disproved, I’d sure like to see it.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on May 16, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

The whole thing is just revolting. I hate it. Wish it never happened, but it did and it’s kind of like being really, really angry at your brother but still supportjing him at the same time.

That said, I still love the team, am a fierce homer, and honestly want this whole thing to go away (as much as I also know that it’ll be forever stuck to it like gum to a shoe.)

Keep the faith!

by Marima on May 16, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They can still put it behind them by continuing to win. It’s hard to look at the past SB’s without having some questions (although even to get in to position to cheat yourself to 3 SB’s is impressive), but they sure didn’t need to steal signals to go 18-0 this year.

by BadMaafala on May 16, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh

That’s EXACTLY what puts my shorts in a twist – they didn’t need to do it. Granted, different seasons and different players, but this Pats homer still says it was unnecessary.

by MaPatsFan on May 16, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Radio Frequencies

I remember reading a Peter King article when this story broke last year;in it,he reported 2 head coaches(I believe they were Marvin Lewis and Herm Edwards)who had the following conversation(paraphrased)that went something like this:
Lewis:”We played a game in Foxborough;I was sending in our play,and you won’t believe what happened.”
Dungy: “Phones went dead,right?”
Lewis: “Yeah…how’d you know?”
Dungy:”Happened to us”

by steelerambassador on May 18, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the pariah pats*

I’m one of those people that will never be able to forgive and forget. I want to follow the Steelers leader’s example but i just can’t.

The fact that the pats* cheated the Steelers in 2 AFC championship games mixed with the league officiating office admitting that JAX held in the garrard 4th and 2 scramble in the playoffs has me nuts right now. That’s 3 playoff games that the Steelers got screwed in. I want to forget about it but I can’t. Maybe after a couple more years of being a fan. I’m still learning how to be a great fan. You guys around here at BTSC are helping me.

"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."

by showtime on May 16, 2008 7:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Jacksonville game is no different than the Seattle Super Bowl

If you really want to be honest. We can’t have it both ways. I hate all that Seattle crying so I refuse to do it with Jacksonville. Over time those things even out. The greatest fans and coaches, the ones on another class level, understand that if their team would have done a few more things they wouldn’t be in the position for the officials to have affected the game.

Regarding the Pats, we need to move on now. Bellichick and the Patriots will forever be jaded, and that needs to be good enough for the rest of the world.

by maryrose on May 16, 2008 9:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My final words on the subject

Unlike McNamee, Walsh sounds like an incredibly believable and credible witness. He has no interest in either side of the debate, and it sure sounds like he was just saying what he thought and knew once he got protection from the NFL and the Patriots. There’s no reason to think there’s a Rams walkthrough video to be found or that the tapes were used in-game. The tapes were a distinct advantage (anyone who says “everyone does it” didn’t watch our offensive game plan this year), so that taints the Pats SB’s, but the taping of defensive signals didn’t allow special teams TD’s or throw interceptions, and even if we had won those playoff games, I doubt the Rams and Eagles would have just handed us the SB trophy.

Now that the credible witness has given all the info he has, there’s nothing more to be done. The helmet thing will prevent this problem in the future. All an investigation is going to do is sling mud around and give an outlet for Patriot hating and speculating, a pastime that is based mostly on jealousy, not righteous indignation. I have to say that I hated and respected the Pats, but I lost the respect for them after this whole thing and how they carried themselves this season. But they got their reward in the SB and in the draft, so it’s over. Let’s just see what happens this year instead of speculating about what happened/would have happened 7 years ago.

by BadMaafala on May 16, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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