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A Closer Look at Larry Zierlein's Career

Of the tens of thousands of words dedicated to the offensive line this offseason, not too many of them have centered around the impact of offensive line coach Larry Zierlein.  I realize that above all else, you need the horses, or in the case of the offensive line, the hogs, to be competitive, but surely the maestro of a professional football team's offensive line has the ability to help is players improve individually and collectively.

This coming season, we will do our best to provide some video or snap shots of the play of the offensive line, to see perhaps where we're succeeding and where we're failing, but for now, I wanted to just take a look at Zierlein's career as a coach. Where did he come from? How successful were the offenses that operated behind his offensive lines. It is fairly widely accepted that offensive success starts up front in the trenches, so perhaps even the most simple statistics will give us an idea of the kind of lines that he assembled and coached.

The first thing that jumps out to me when looking at his coaching timeline is that his first gig in the National Football League was not until 2001, when the Cleveland Browns put him in charge of their offensive line.  That might not sound like a big deal until you remember that he's in his 60s, meaning he didn't even get his first crack in the league until his late 50s, despite having been a coach for the better part of three decades. He would remain in Cleveland from 2001 to 2004. Here's how his offenses fared in those years.

Points Scored/Game Rushing Yards/Game Passing Yards/Game Sacks Allowed
2001(7-9) 17.8 (25th) 84.4 (31st) 175.1 (28th) 51   (4th)
2002(9-7) 21.5 (19th) 100.9 (23rd) 213.3 (18th) 35 (19th)
2003(5-11) 15.9 (29th) 104.4 (20th) 177.1 (25th) 40 (13th)
2004(4-12) 17.25 (27th) 103.6 (23rd) 176.5 (25th) 41 (11th)

In case you were wondering, the years 2001-2003 were the same years that Bruce Arians was calling the shots in Cleveland. Arians was dismissed one year before Zierlein was, but clearly 2004 was not a memorable one for the Big Z.

He would then take 2005 off, before being the Assistant Offensive Line Coach in Buffalo in 2006, when the Bills finished 7-9, with the 23rd ranked scoring offense. His line surrendered 47 sacks (t-7th most), and the passing game and rushing game were ranked 28th and 27th respectively, in terms of yards per game.

Comic-000001_medium
Much of Zierlein's career has been the same way
- a band-aid type fix before moving on to the next gig

The reality is, Larry Zierlein has never coached an offensive line that paved the way for a successful NFL offense. As I mentioned to start, that has a lot to do with the players at his disposal. There's only so much you can do with a rotten bag of lemons in Cleveland. That said, his credentials at the professional level leave plenty to be desired.

How about in the college ranks? Zierlein did have a nice run in the now defunct Southwestern Conference, when he coached the O-Line at the University of Houston from 1978-1986. His teams won two conference titles in his first two years on campus, finishing 1978 ranked #10 and 1979 #5, and one more in 1984. 

Following that solid run, Zierlein spent one year coaching the Washington Commandos in their inaugural 4-team demonstration year. Then, two unfruitful seasons in New Orleans coaching the Tulane Green Wave, followed by a two-year stint in the World League of American Football. It should be noted that the two years that he was coaching the NY/NJ Knights of the WFAL, were the first two of the league's existence. I don't want to sound overly critical here, as I commend Zierlein for wanting to be a part of something new and fresh, but let's face it, those leagues were not exactly competing for first-rate talent at the coaching level. 

Somehow, Tulane decided to give him another shot, in 1995-1996, but both he and head coach Buddy Teevens were dismissed following the '96 season. For those who think coaching doesn't matter, remember that Tommy Bowden took over the Tulane job in 1997, and immediately turned the program around, winning 7 games with many of Teeven's and Zierlein's players, followed by an undefeated 12-0 season in 1998.

The last stop on Zierlein's career path before making into the NFL was with the Cincinnati Bearcats. As seems to have been the case in several of his stints, things got off to a nice start, then turned south. In 1997, the squad posted an 8-4 record, followed by 2-9 and 3-8 campaigns the finish out the millenium. In his final year in Cincy, things were better, as the Bearcat rushing attack helped pave the way for a 7-5 record and bowl berth.

In conclusion, allow me to quickly say that so long as Larry Zierlein is a coach on the Pittsburgh Steelers, I support him and have high hopes for him. All offseason, I have thought that it's entirely possible that our offensive line performs at a much higher level in 2008 than it did in Zierlein's first year, even though on paper we shouldn't be much better.  For the sake of his career in Pittsburgh, it better be, because if you had to ask me which assistant coach is most likely to be dismissed in the Mike Tomlin era, it would have to be him.

Anyway, if nothing else, I'm a bit underwhelmed by his resume. Zierlein joined the coaching ranks of the NFL at 61 years old, having never played a down in the league. Outside of his credible stint at Houston, he seemed to have bounced around quite a bit. And then, once in the pros, he struggled similarly. Granted, Cleveland has been a veritable graveyard for coaches up until just recently, but nevertheless, many have done more with less.

With all the weapons stockpiled on our roster, let's hope that Zierlein and his men can put together a solid season in 2008 and in years to come. There's enough talent to make everybody look much smarter than they really are, provided we put the right guys in the right places along the line.

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I was pretty surprised at this pick last year, but assumed that Tomlin didn’t have too many options. I thought he’d be fired after last year’s mess of an OL, but I understand giving him one more year. If the OL sucks this year as well, he’s as good as gone. The same goes for the ST coach.

And of course it’s hard to separate lousy players and lousy coaches. But someone has to held accountable.

by Cols714 on Jun 30, 2008 1:55 PM EDT   0 recs

Wow - Unimpressed

I’m extremely unimpressed with Zierlein’s credentials – as well as Arians.. I wonder if they were some sort of package deal. I agree that they both deserve another year – but if we don’t see marked improvement I believe we need to bring in the right guys.. I don’t want to piss away the next few years because we have some mediocre coaches – we need the guys who will put our players in a position to succeed.

by smashmouthsteel on Jun 30, 2008 1:57 PM EDT   0 recs

my thoughts exactly

Makes you wonder how a guy can even get, much less keep a job with such a sub-par resume.

by cgolden on Jun 30, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Arians did a pretty good job last year. Ben Roth had an amazing year, FWP was leading the league in rushing, and the offense scored a lot of points. I think he needs to improve on his end of game play calling, especially with a lead, and get quicker at adjusting, but overall I think it was a good performance.

by Cols714 on Jun 30, 2008 1:59 PM EDT   0 recs

Agreed

I did a huge knee-jerk after the playoff loss and called for Arians to be fired, but with some time to reflect and gather my thoughts, he did a decent job in his first season. He’s got to improve on some things in his second year but he did orchestrate one of the highest scoring offenses in franchise history.

by cgolden on Jun 30, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And he coached the last Browns offense that torched the Steelers in one regular season game and in the playoff game.

by Cols714 on Jun 30, 2008 1:59 PM EDT   0 recs

Great Players

I agree that Ben and Willie were monsters last year – but I really don’t know how much of that can be attributed to the coaching as opposed to superior athletes/players doing their thing. I don’t think that anyone can say that there were not a number of plays in some crucial points of the game that left you scratching your head. Anyhow – they have this season to shut up all of the hate (me included). I’m looking forward to it and hopefully they are looking forward to challenge.

by smashmouthsteel on Jun 30, 2008 3:22 PM EDT   0 recs

I dunno
We blame the coaches for poor performances so we should give them some credit for good performances. Like I said, it’s impossible to separate the two completely. Overall, Arians had a good year last year. I also like it that Ben seemed much happier under Tomlin/Arians than Cowher/Whiz. I wonder if he would’ve signed the long contract had the old regime still been in charge.

by Cols714 on Jun 30, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

interesting

Interesting questino about Ben and his contract had their not been a coaching change at just that moment in his career.

by Blitzburgh on Jun 30, 2008 7:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

some more numbers

Just because I was curious and bored today, these are the same numbers for the Steelers over the past few years.

Year pts run pass sack
2002 24.4 (8t) 132.5 (9) 239.5 (7) 34 (13)
2003 18.8 (19) 93 (31) 206.5 (14) 42 (22t)
2004 23.3 (11) 154 (2) 170.0 (28) 36 (14t)
2005 24.3 (9) 138.9 (5) 182.9 (24) 32 (15t)
2006 22.1 (12t) 124.5 (10) 233.3 (9) 49 (27t)
2007 24.6 (9) 135.5 (3) 191.9 (22) 47 (25t)

It’s pretty hard to get much out of these statistics, but it’s also pretty hard to condemn Z by means of them. It’s fascinating that we haven’t been higher than 13th in the league in sacks allowed in the last several years. For how much we ran and had a generally respected OL, pass pro was never our thing. Off the top of my head, the two biggest causes of the rising sack total have been Starks’ drop-off and Hartings fall from Pro Bowl center to retired in a little more than a year. Changes in personnel and the lack of draft/FA investment in the OL alone can probably account for most of the drop-off. We went from having Hartings, Faneca, and Smith in the primes of their careers (and early Simmons, too) to having Hartings retired, Smith with back problems, Faneca slowing down a bit, and Simmons with a fixed knee and diabetes.

An OL coach has much less responsibility than an OC or HC. I doubt Coach Zee is an outstanding guy, but I also don’t see him screwing anything up (other than the send button). I’m willing to stick with him for continuity’s sake. Arians is a tool, though, and he by himself can keep our offense from being consistent. He’s the guy I’ve had my sights on.

by BadMaafala on Jun 30, 2008 3:56 PM EDT   0 recs

the line that stood out

“so long as Larry Zierlein is a coach on the Pittsburgh Steelers, I support him and have high hopes for him”
I was underwhelmed when he was chosen last year, and not impressed during the season. I understand that bad players are not a coaches fault, but I do see and have seen great coaches get better play out of weaker players and I have seen units of individually weak players excel in a system and with the right coach.

Since I do not (yet) see evidence that the Steelers’ OL is composed of tremendous, above average talent, then they need to play as an above average unit. If Zierlein was on another team, I would not have any confidence in his ability.

My confidence in him doing a good job extends from my confidence in the steelers, my confidence that Tomlin has picked the right personnel, and my everyday positive desire to see the steelers excel. And, I do not know who/how many talented guys out there that should step in and take his place.

by vherub on Jun 30, 2008 4:01 PM EDT   0 recs

Shaky ground!

Another good read Blitzburgh. Thank you. Zierleins resume is a portrait of frustration and failure. I highly suspect that he was recomended by Arians. BTW Arians resume is’nt too shabby IMO. I questioned Zierlein’s resume at the end of our season. I felt his head would be the first to roll. Much to my surprise it did’nt. If there is not any notable improvement this year I hope to hear the sound of his head hitting the basket. IMO there seems to be some major differences of opinion between the powers that be of what the O line should be. Did any of you catch that story written by Jim Wexall (?) that rumor had it that Tomlin apologised to Starks and told him that he would have his job back this season? The O line situation as it stands is perplexing to say the least. I too am trusting that this year they get it right.

by steelersrock08 on Jun 30, 2008 4:47 PM EDT   0 recs

good point

Yeah, that seems to be a problem if the FO isn’t on the same page as the coaching staff on such a big issue. The blame for something like that should propagate upward, if you ask me, to Arians or Tomlin. Somebody has to step up as a leader and make sure everyone is acting together, even if there are differences of opinion.

by BadMaafala on Jun 30, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

glad you liked it, sir

I hope I did not come across too negatively. The fact is, the man’s been a football coach for most all of his adult life. He knows more about talent, pushing buttons, everything football related, than me. And to stay in the game for that long, even at just the Division 1 level, is impressive. I perhaps sounded condenscending about some of the stops in his career, but there’s probably tens of thousands of coaches at some level in America. Only a select few get their crack at the D1 and NFL level. The fact that he’s been one of them and gotten hired for nearly three straight decades should mean something.

But anyway, agree that its do-or-die for him. We just have too much talent on offense, and a very good, and potentially great defense in the next 2-5 years. We can’t afford to be held back too much by the line.

by Blitzburgh on Jun 30, 2008 7:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good post

Thanks for the details, Blitz! I agree, that resume certainly leaves me underwhelmed. I would think you could have gotten an OL coach from Ohio State or USC, or one of those big-time programs, if you couldn’t get one from another NFL team. Zierlein’s career does not seem to have followed a pattern that would have made me want him.

I don’t think that he would be a package deal with Arians, because Arians was our receivers coach under Cowher and Whisenhunt. Hopefully, he improves the OL this year, or he’s out. Don’t we have any former OL-men that are coaching now?

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jun 30, 2008 5:01 PM EDT   0 recs

not quite

A brief look at how some of Tomlin’s defenses fared in Tampa and then in Minny confirms he’s gotten tremendous results each and every year he’s been in the league. His TB Bucs defenses (he was DB coach), never finished worse than about 4th or 5th best in passing defense, with multiple years being the top rated pass defense.

Then in Minnesota, his rush defense was historically good.

Bottom line is Tomlin’s resume may be fairly short, but every stint of his career has been successful, whereas just about every stop in Z’s career has been so-so.

by Blitzburgh on Jun 30, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Negativity or?

If you don’t mind my asking… RE, what is your purpose in your continuous assault on Coach Tomlin? Why are you so negative when his name is brought up on this forum? IMHO your attitude in this regard is distracting, offensive, and non-contributory. Your attitude is totally contradictory to the Spirit of the Pittsburgh Steeler football team, the team’s owners, loyal supporters, and I suspect to other participants on this forum other than myself. I would sincerely appreciate a candid and honest response if you bother to answer these questions. I recognise that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but your IQ is beginning to show in your consistant assualt on coach T. Once again I’m speaking for me.
Prove me wrong!

by steelersrock08 on Jun 30, 2008 11:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Zierlein and Ariens were Tomlin's first two signings as head coach...

Where does the responsibility lie? It is about the only thing he has to be able to do reasonably well as HC, for all the millions of dollars and all the prestige. Pick proper assistants.

Of the three, Tomlin was probably the most obscure when Cowher stepped down. He had even less of a track record than Porn Link Larry or Areins.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 12:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He won 10 games his rookie year

What’s you’re real point? Arians was already on staff as a receivers coach. Zierlein may have been a questionable hire, but it’s not unreasonable to give a guy at least two years to prove himself. We gave up two fewer sacks in ‘07 under Zierlein than in ‘06 under Grimm.

Noll and Cowher were both about the same age as Tomlin (slightly younger I think). All of your points don’t hold water on even the most cursory inspection.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 11:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, Arians was already on the staff and one of the reasons Tomlin was hired was because he convinced ownership that he could provide continuity for the veteran team. I have no problem with that promotion or some of the other signings. He’s a young guy without a ton of connections and Arians is a guy who knows the players and has experience running an offense. It’s late in the hiring season, so he doesn’t have a ton of options.

However, after a year it’s apparent that Arians is at best average. There was no evidence that he even looked at Cam Cameron or anyone else. Cameron would be a good candidate because after last season, it’ll be a few years before he can get another HC job. As we’ve said here before, Arians is a proven mediocre commodity with no upside. If he was going to take a big leap upward, he would have done it already.

What I was hoping was that this year Tomlin would start to build his own staff with young and upcoming guys that want to work for him. I was hoping that he’d see the obvious (that Arians is not a good OC) instead of saying, “Well, we went 10-6. Why should we change anything?” That makes me question his ability to evaluate coaches and his desire to be more than just a playoff team. Sometimes he looks like he’s just trying to fit in instead of standing out.

On an unrelated note, so RE, is Doug Legurski All-Pro yet, or will he actually have to play somewhere first?

by BadMaafala on Jul 1, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't recall predicting All Pro status for Legursky, Bad..

..I just said he looked like the most promising free agent signing based on his size, position, workout numbers, and college career. Obviously the Steelers felt the same at the time, since he was their first free agent signed, and was given a three year contract. We don’t know the reasons he was cut, it may have been a monetary consideration similar to Davenport. The team actually has money committed to Legursky already, unlike any of the draft picks.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

zero money

committed, except for whatever signing bonus he got, and the salary for the couple months he was on the team’s roster. contracts are not guaranteed.

by TheMostViolentTeam on Jul 2, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll agree that he may have been a promising FA based on numbers

but that’s all he was. If you’d have said “he looks like a good signing that could work out for us” instead of making it seem like he’s a huge steal, making the roster over Stapleton and “much better than his UDFA status”, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You were making strong claims based on “internet research” when there just isn’t that much you can glean about most UDFA linemen based on the internet. When people called you out for that, you just argued longer than anyone else wanted to.

Legursky, meanwhile, got cut after OTA’s which means that the staff doesn’t think he’s going to play in the NFL. He didn’t even make it to training camp. He didn’t get cut because he was making too much money; he’s an UDFA. If they didn’t want to spend the money on a flier, they wouldn’t have signed anyone. He got cut because he didn’t have the potential of other players on the roster. Why else would you cut a player that young?

by BadMaafala on Jul 2, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We have no idea why he was cut..

..and I don’t think I was particularly overboard in talking him up. I did more or less the same for a few other free agent/late rounders who are still with the team. Russell, Baker, Clement, Bailey, etc. With Legursky it was primarily based on his position. The interior line was a bit of a dog’s breakfast, Faneca is gone, and they didn’t draft a gaurd or center.

by robert ethan on Jul 2, 2008 3:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They wouldn’t cut him if they thought he was worth a PS spot.

by BadMaafala on Jul 2, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Honestly, you think it’s offensive? Dude this is a fan comment section. It is not offensive if someone doesn’t think the head coach is doing a good job.

by Cols714 on Jul 1, 2008 10:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good call

RE, any chance you’ll do a fanpost on your reasoning behind your dislike of Tomlin? I agree his resume was not expansive to start with but that seems to be the Steelers M.O. for hiring coaches, and it’s worked well for the past two.

And in his first year his team performed well. Big Ben had a record setting year, Willie was the leading rusher before getting an injury that does not come from over-use, and the defense did end up leading the league in many categories. And finally the team made the playoffs. They did not win the superbowl, so in Tomlin’s own words it was a failure, but come on…

Enlighten the rest of us at your reasoning for the hate, or at least dislike. Cause it seems all the rest of the regulars here take a wait and see approach, but are mostly optimistic. You seem to be the one nay-sayer, and I’d love to hear your reasoning for it.

by Chicago Steeler on Jul 1, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

On an objective level..

I didn’t like the signing of Tomlin based on his lack of experience and lack of having ever excelled at ANYTHING in his life. Cowher may have been young and inexperienced as well, but he made himself into an NFL player and had more success at least. Plus Bill was a dynamic, charismatic individual. You could see the potential at the time, I’m sure.

On a personal level I find Tomlin sullen looking, vague, and constantly using words and phrases out of context in a misguided attempt to appear profound. Genuinely intelligent people don’t feel the need to unnecessarily embellish their speech make themselves appear so.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Here we go again

Again, these comments against Tomlin are only based on bigotry. You fail to see most of the black NFL coaches have really just recently have been given theses positions. You want to talk about resume’, but he fact remains you would not be questioning any other of his white counterparts in the league. Give the manTomlin) a decent chance . My God. And I bet most of you probalbly can’t coach or have ever played any organized football. Get a life!

by C-Mac on Jul 2, 2008 10:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

can we ban this guy?

No talking about race, buddy, especially not if that’s the only thing you ever talk about.

by BadMaafala on Jul 2, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

coachs

Tomlin: Love him…sorry RE, Tomlin’s the man and will be here for a long time.

Arians: Like him…I may be in the minority but I think he’ll be here a while as well. Great job as first year OC and Ben really likes him.

Yes, both made mistakes and bone-head calls but they are human...it's gonna          happen.  Only 1 team wins the SB...heck, look at the talent NE has had the last 3 years and they haven't even won the SB...fire Belicheck (sp)?
Zierlien:  like most of you I am completely unimpressed...but I did think coach T. made the right call and gave the guy another year.
I agree with Wolf, that a former Steeler O-lineman would be good or a young, college OL coach would be great...I don't have any names though...
Who knows, maybe coach Z. will get caught sending more porn and get fired before camp...

by SteelerMike on Jun 30, 2008 10:42 PM EDT   0 recs

blinders

I like Tomlin and have high hopes, but I don’t think we should jump on anybody that is not convinced. Face it, a first-year coach lost a playoffs game with two terrible decisions that no coach should have ever made. Going for two was a questionable call – I questioned it even after we converted and before I saw the flag. We’re down five with ten minutes left, but we have a qb who looks really hot. I don’t understand how you can not think that we will score another touchdown. Then the extra point means you’re ahead by three, not by two. But if that is questionable, there is no question about going for two from the twelve. You don’t do it. You never do it.

Second, Tomlin benched our best healthy free safety and it cost us dearly. He did this even after showing his reluctance to ever pull anybody – how many sacks does Marvel Smith have to give up before you realize maybe he shouldn’t be playing? Then Jones-Drew and Garrard ran right by Tyrone Carter. Anthony Smith may have been burned by the guy who caught more touchdowns than anybody in a season ever, but I am positive that on those two plays, Smitty would have had two more tackles to add to his 60+ solo tackles on the year. (I think this thread’s discussion may explain the different standards different positions are held to – Tomlin has coached some excellent secondaries, so he holds the Steeler players to that level. Zierlin has always coached poor offensive lines, so why bench more of the same?)

You throw in a questionable game-end play-call, which he later admits was called because they hoped to have 3 and 2 instead of 3 and 6. Come on. You have to be able to change your call when the situation you hope for doesn’t arise.

It was a bad, bad first playoff game for a new head coach. I’m not saying that it will be indicative of anything in the future or that Tomlin doesn’t show tons of promise. I’m just saying that it may not be a question of somebody’s IQ that questions hims.

by buddytoledo on Jul 1, 2008 6:58 AM EDT   0 recs

Not blinders

We’re just saying it’s too early to start tearing down a coach who won 10 games and a division in his first season. There’s huge difference between saying you’re not sold on the coach and saying we need to start looking for his replacement (which robert ethan has said before). I’m not totally sold on Tomlin yet, for exactly the reasons that you stated. But, if he learns from his mistakes, and corrects them, wins a couple SBs, then I’ll be sold. If five years from now, he’s continuing to make the same mistakes, and we’re still losing in the first round of the playoffs at home, then I’ll be ready throw him under the bus, too. It’s just too early in his career to be making those kinds of statements.

And, I do find it offensive that RE criticizes Tomlin at every opportunity. There’s just no reason to be that negative yet.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's crap, Wolfpack..

I never said anything about “looking for (Tomlin’s) replacement:. I wish you guys would stop putting words in my mouth. I specifically stated in a thread someone else started on that topic that I didn’t think that Tomlin was in any danger of losing his job, and that he would have to commit some major personal faux pas in order for that to be a possibility. Read the bleeping threads before you make statements like that.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 3:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Poor D RE...

Thank you RE for your attempt to answer my and the other questions thrown to you. IMHO it was a feeble attempt on your part. Your reasoning at least on the surface dose not relate to the facts of what Tomlin’s resume says in black & white nor the accomplishments he has achieved on the field prior to his coming to the Steelers. You also don’t recognise what he did in his rookie year as the Steeler HC. Now you are critical of how he addresses himself. C’mon RE. Give me a break. Your defense is poor. Speaking for myself you insult my intelligence.
Here we go Steelers….Here we go….

by steelersrock08 on Jul 1, 2008 4:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha!

It took some searching, but I finally found the comment I was referring to here where you stated:

then maybe it’s time to reassess the head coach

Ok, so you didn’t exactly say we should look for his replacement, but those words certainly imply that you believe he should be replaced already. And, most comments you’ve made about Tomlin since would seem to support that interpretation.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha?

The context of that statement was in relation to the poor performance of the offensive line, and by extention it’s coach Zielein, who was the first assistant hired by Tomlin. All I said was that if the line doesn’t improve next season, Tomlin needs to reassess the guy he hired, and that if he refused, it would be time to reassess Tomlin. That seems to be a far cry from saying that I think Tomlin should be fired. I think everyone here agrees the line was awful last season and a lot of people are less than enthusiastic with Zierlein.

As I stated in another post, the only thing that Tomlin really needs to have a talent for as HC is hiring good assistants. So far it doesn’t look great for him from that perspective.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright look

By most any assessment (except yours), a 10 win, division winning rookie season in which you become the first HC in NFL history to have the top ranked defense in your first year buys you at least two, if not three, more years, regardless of the outcome of those years. Yeah, if we went 1-15 next year, he’d probably be fired, but 5-11 or 6-10 for a even a couple years, and he’d still be given a fourth year based on that good start. But, you already said, as I just showed, that you would like to see a change. You haven’t had one good thing to say about Tomlin, that I can recall. You seem to just hate him from the beginning. Even if you hadn’t said explicitly that you think he should be fired, you’ve made it clear that you want him gone. When you say that nothing short of a monumental collapse will get him fired, that can only be because of the Rooney’s normal patience with coaches, not because of your longsuffering.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 5:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought he was an unnecessary risk as a signing at the time..

The job is one of the best in all of professional sports. Huge salary, tremendous prestige. Not something you hand to an unremarkable and unproven individual for on the job training. Everyone says – “Yeah, he made some mistakes, give him time, it’s only his first season….blah, blah, blah.”. That is silly. Let him make his make his mistakes and learn at a lower level, or at a different position, or for another team at least. It is a pretty fine line between a team having a great season and a lousy one. Two or three of those “rookie mistakes” over the course of a season can be the difference. Even just one glaring one.

by robert ethan on Jul 1, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

better

That’s more rationale logic and expression of your views. What I don’t like is when you say things that he hasnt suceeded in anything in his life. That’s just absurd. He’s been hired by 7 organizations, and all of them have seen something in him. It can’t be just the Rooneys who are making ‘vanity’ moves by your logic.

But more than anything else, this same logic can be applied to Noll and Cowher. Both too had short resumes. But as you said, they made it to the NFL. Great, so if Mike Tomlin was a bit taller and faster, ie better in the areas he had no control over really from birth, he would be more deserving of this opportunity. I don’t get that. Bottom line is the Rooneys have hit two huge HRs in their past two coaching hires, and both of those hires were VERY similar to this one, the only main difference being Cowher and Noll were more meat-and-potatoes prototypical looking and sounding football guys. Whereas Tomlin’s a bit more modern, cool customer, who at times as you say (which I don’t 100% disagree about), can use a few too many cliches that don’t really address the details of what’s being discussed.

by Blitzburgh on Jul 1, 2008 6:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Salute!

Very well put Blitz. I’m becoming a big fan of yours.

by steelersrock08 on Jul 1, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Every new change is a risk

Just because someone succeeded somewhere else doesn’t mean that he would for us. Also, if someone else hired him and let him make those mistakes, then he proved successful, it would be very hard to hire him away. If you want to win championships in the NFL, history has shown that you hire someone who is young and up and coming (or at least has not yet won a championship). They are still hungry and looking to make their mark. You don’t hire someone who’s already made their mark, because they may be tempted to rest on their laurels. Or, if they are innovators, you’re getting them after the league has already started to adjust to them.

True, the Steelers HC job is one of the most prestigious in all of sports. But, I doubt it has ever been one of the highest paying. Cowher was offered an extension in the range of $6M a year, very high, but not nearly in the range of Holmgren’s $8M+. Many people thought he could get $8-10M if chose to leave the Steelers and entertained offers from around the league.

Finally, other George Seifert in SF, name me one other time that legendary coach retired, was succeeded by someone from his staff, and the successor had the same success. Hiring Whiz or Grimm was just as big a risk as any other because neither has been a HC.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 6:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Amen

Good points Wolfpack. RE’s arguments are weak. He did not meet the challenge. It is very hard to argue with the success Tomlin has had thus far. I’m a very positive person. I believe its OK to be critical and objective, but not obsessive. Obsession is an element of hate.
You are so right when you say “every new change is a risk.” However, many of us on this board seem to agree that Coach T has been impressive in his rookie year. IMO the true Steeler fan will continue to support him until he falls from grace on a consistant level. He may not even duplicate last season’s record in the upcoming season (RE would love that!) , but he needs time to grow and develop. His contract is for 4 years. I think that is a reasonable amount of time for him to make it or break it. My hope is we are in the SB within the remaining 3 years of his contract. On a personal note, I have a very good track record of riding with the winners! LOL!

by steelersrock08 on Jul 1, 2008 8:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks

I hope you’re right about the SBs. Glad to hear about your personal record with “riding with the winners.” Hopefully, it continues to be true for the Steelers.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jul 1, 2008 8:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

bigot

Give the man a break You newly manfactured to nature white devil.

by C-Mac on Jul 2, 2008 10:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bigot

Cowher has lost game too. Get a grip. You manufacured new crated white devil.

by C-Mac on Jul 2, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My bad

60+ should be 50+

by buddytoledo on Jul 1, 2008 7:00 AM EDT   0 recs

Coach Z

is an incompetant. The best coaches (Noll, LeBeau, Parcells) are teachers. Z made no O lineman better and many younger talented O linemen (Starks) actually regressed under Zierlien.
As for the statement that he and Arians coached the last Browns team to torch the Steelers…HA! Arians O had a HUGE lead into the 4th quarter and played cha cha (1.2.3 kick) with the 4th quarter and LOST the game. He also lost twice during the regular season that year to the Steelers. That’s 0-3 against Pittsburgh dude. Hardly grounds for congratulations.
Arians and Zierlien were both here already when Tomlin showed up. He kept them for continuity. No problem there. Neither performed in exemplory fashion last year. Many of Ben’s big plays were busted plays he turned into winners based on pure athletic talent…not Arians X&O. Hope I’m wrong but I think Tomlin needs to jettison these two buffoons. Sorry.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Jul 2, 2008 10:06 AM EDT   0 recs

I don't want to defend him too much, but

Starks regressed under Grimm. He got benched last year, but in the time he did play, he looked better than in 2006. I guess I just don’t feel that OL coach is important enough to care much about, esp when you have a crappy OL to begin with. I’d be okay with finding someone better, but I won’t be upset if he doesn’t get fired. I’m with you on Arians, though.

by BadMaafala on Jul 2, 2008 12:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Coach Perspective

Here’s my thoughts 45;
With Faneca and Hartings gone, the Steelers will soon be filled with younger guys manning the OL. IMO it is very important that we have a good teacher at the OL position. Grimm was good enough to help us get XL and is respected throughout the league. Don’t think Starks regressed as much under Grimm as he stayed out partying too long like the rest of the team celebrating XL. (7) Regardless, Starks regressed to the bench under Z. Don’t think Z taught anything to anyone except send button MO. (loved that line someone used in the Z post)

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Jul 2, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You do have a good point about all the young guys that are going to be starting before long. We do need someone who can teach them how to play and help us make the transition to a new OL. I still think Starks played well last year when he played, though.

I think one of the biggest things to watch is how the young guys on the line (Colon, Kemo, and Stapleton) mature. If they become pretty good OL’s, I’d give at least some of the credit to Coach Zee, especially considering none of them were high picks like Faneca, Simmons, Smith, or Hartings. In that respect IMO, Grimm was given too much credit for what he did with such stellar talent. If you have 3 first rounders and a second rounder, you’d better be good.

by BadMaafala on Jul 2, 2008 1:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cool

Most important as I always respect your opinions, glad you liked (and got) the handle.
Agree that Grimm had superior talent. Also I’m patient. I always end my rants about Z & A with “hope I’m wrong” and “Sorry” (not that I think so or that I’m really sorry)
We need Kemo, Colon and Stapleton to be better players this year so I will reserve final score. If they are markedly better then some accolades will need to go Z & A way.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Jul 2, 2008 6:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Neutral on Arians, but, we should not lose sight of the fact that he made some lemonade out of the division’s lemons on the lake.

by bigmaq on Jul 3, 2008 7:53 PM EDT   0 recs

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