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Tomlin vs Collier

It seems that Mike Tomlin has decided that sports writers are a more appropriate opponent than opposing coaches.  He felt it necessary to express his opinion on a column by Gene Collier in which he's quoted as saying:

"His actions were referred to as 'thuggery.' We take offense to that."

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08226/903878-66.stm

 

Well I take offense at head coaches who try to manipulate or intimidate the press especially when they haven't shown the same courage when it really counted. I remember last year when Bill Belichick rubbed Smith's nose in the dirt after his idiocy prior to and during the New England debacle.  Belichick was gloating post-game when he told the national press that they'd faced better safeties than Smith.  Since when is it OK for a coach to criticize another team's players?   Where was Mike Tomlin then?  I don't recall him having his players back at that time.  Is the press an easier target?  Was Tomlin afraid to say anything in response to Belichick?  At the least he could have pointed out that Belichick's comments said more about Belichick as a person than it did about Smith as a player!

 

Is Anthony Smith's psyche that fragile?

 

Come on Mike, coach the team,  and let the reporters write.

 

0 recs  |  Comment 23 comments

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After reading the article you mention here is my take. Maybe it was possible that Tomlin didn’t feel that Coach Belicheets comments were out of line or untruthful and therefore had no reason to defend against them. Also there was a good chance that the Steelers could have played the Patriots later on in the playoffs and he didn’t want to give them any additional bulletin board material.
Collier’s comment about the hit being “thuggery” was a choice of words that evidently struck Tomlin the wrong way. Perhaps Tomlin interpreted it as racially insulting or perhaps just plain insulting. He might have decided to state his opinion on the comments to show the media where the lines are when talking about his players.
I guess my thought would be defending against the media vs. other teams are apples and oranges. Tomlin has said that he doesn’t like to give other teams "bulletin board" material and whenever you attack another team or make comments back to them you run the risk of saying something that can be interpreted as such.

by frankrmineo on Aug 13, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Are you serious?

There’s no possible way you are. There’s absolutely nothing to be outraged about here.

by HinesField on Aug 13, 2008 9:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree. Its one thing for someone in another part of the country to say those things, which by the way were true. It is different for a local writer to try and turn up the volume on a virtually non-existent conflict, and in the process trash a player on his hometown team. I think Anthony defended himself admirably, he hasn’t been in trouble except in the court of public opinion, and using the term ‘thug’ is inappropriate. Its not like he was involved in a shady bar, for example, or got shot in the ass at 2:30 in the morning outside a club in Colorado. The guys who get a pass from the media are the guys that they like, not the ones who necessarily deserve it. Gene needs to shut up and cover real Steelers news, and Anthony needs to focus on playing well.

As to the point about Tomlin not backing up Smith when Belichick trashed him, there are two angles. The first is that Bill’s assessment was factually correct. Too much talking, not enough play out of the young man. Completely inappropriate for him to say any of that, but on face it’s all correct. The second is that I think Tomlin will take the high road wherever he can. He’ll put that comment in his pocket and save it for the next time we face the Pats. There is no need to start a trash talk war in the media, though I’m sure Mr. Collier would appreciate it.

Formerly known as "tribefan stuck in boston"

by BostonWahoo on Aug 13, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definition of the word thug

I think this is a misunderstanding resulting from the different interpretations of the definition of the word thug, or the phrase “training camp thuggery”. To me Collier’s phrase was fairly innocuous. He did not use the word thug.

A thug is either a hoodlum, which has a criminal connotation, or it means a hired gun, a strongman. Anthony Smith is not a hoodlum. He may not be the brightest bulb on the squad – leave Hines alone Anthony, be weary of the media (see “guarantees”) – but what he is is young. He;s made some errors in judgement which hopefully he’s maturing from and will grow into a hell of a safety for us. He’s got world class veteran players and coaches to learn from, he better toe the line a little better and soon.

Anthony Smith is is a safety in the NFL, and if that isn’t the definition of a hired gun/strongman – I don’t know what is. Million$ of dollar$ to go out and literally strike fear into opposing players. You don’t think Ray Lewis, Jack Lambert or Ronnie Lot did exactly that many, many times?

The NFL has always had a rough edge. Its a violent sport, and Tomlin’s stated goal is to be the most violent team in the league. Tomlin wants Hines and Ben etc healthy, but he does not want anything to take away from the aggressiveness of this defense.

by herewegosteelers on Aug 13, 2008 10:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think he did not like the use of the word thug or thuggery. And, yes, as Ryan Clark has pointed out, that word can have racial connotations. So I have no problem with Tomlin calling out Collier. It’s one thing to criticize, which to be a reporter with any respect, you need to do, it’s another to insult a player with a racially loaded word. I’m sure that Collier is not a racist and didn’t mean it to be hurtful in that way, but sometimes these things can take on a meaning that the writer didn’t intend.

by Cols714 on Aug 13, 2008 10:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think we can generalize this a bit.

More to the point, putting connotations aside, I think it’s fair to say that when Collier referred to this incident as “thuggery,” he was editorializing, not reporting. It’s one thing for Tomlin to argue against the facts of the situation; it’s another for him to respond to an opinion that may have given the public an incorrect impression.

by HinesField on Aug 13, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I am serious

And I’m well aware that in the lowest common denominator of the popular sports lexicon that anything related to “thug” may be perceived to have racial overtones. Honestly, I don’t want writers of Gene Collier’s skill to write to the lowest common denominator. There is no racial connotation in the definition of thug:

From dictionary.com

thug – noun
1, a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer

I think we can all agree that Collier wasn’t calling Smith a robber or murderer so the ruffian applies

ruffian – noun
1. a tough, lawless person; roughneck; bully

It was a non-contact drill, hence the vicious hit was lawless. So now parse the phrase “training-camp thuggery” and tell me what is wrong with it. It was not editorializing, it was an accurate description of the event.

And I’m really wondering who the “we” is that Mike Tomlin is referring to. Is he speaking for him and Smith? Or is he, as the head coach, speaking for the Steelers.

I really would have expected a more intelligent response than “We take offense to it”.

Well why?

by 86HOF on Aug 13, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Anthony Smith is just a kid, Come after me, I’m a MAN, i’m 40.

-Mike Tomlin

by frankrmineo on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha.

While you’re pulling out your dictionary, you may want to check the definition of the word connotation:

2. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning.

Or, selected definitions from another source:

The implications of a word or phrase, as opposed to its exact meaning (denotation).

The impression that a word gives beyond its defined meaning. Connotations may be universally understood or may be significant only to a certain group.

The shade or tone of a word’s meaning that the word suggests.

Connotation is a subjective cultural and/or emotional coloration in addition to the explicit or denotative meaning of any specific word or phrase in a language, i.e. emotional association with a word.

However, I’m not going to argue this from a racial perspective. I just simply find it absurd that you think it’s absurd for Tomlin to respond to a reporter’s loaded phrase. Part of Tomlin’s job is PR; letting people, and the team, think that this incident was a bigger deal than it actually was doesn’t help anyone. Fundamentally, he tried briefly to diffuse the situation, as is his job, and this has likely already garnered more attention than it originally deserved.

by HinesField on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was wrong

to use the word connotation.

My sentence should have been written

There is no racial inference in the definition of thug. Thanks for the editorial assistance. The fact remains, “training-camp thuggery” is an accurate description of what happened.

And yes this has gotten way too much play … thanks to Mike Tomlin.

by 86HOF on Aug 13, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mike Tomlin is only 36, Come after me I’m a man; I’m 40…

anyways Mike Tomlin made one comment. Ed Bouchette, Gary Dulac, Scott Brown, and other national and local media have spent far more time on it than him. In fact you, me and BTSC have officially now spent more time on the Issue than Tomlin has.

Why don’t we just drop it as it is all but meaningless to the Steelers success and failures in the future.

by frankrmineo on Aug 13, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well then perhaps a writer of Gene’s “skill” should use more accurate words that aren’t racially implicative… like “ruffian.” ;)

by Hines Ward on Aug 13, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poor choice of words.

C’mon! This is getting ridiculous. I remember a law suit was filed a while back against one Charles Henry Noll for his “criminal element” comment. As most of us know the suit was dismissed, but apparently the lesson wasn’t learned. As a former professional media guy, Collier was out of line IMO.
He has put himself in Tomlin’s doghouse.

by steelersrock08 on Aug 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"WE" means "TEAM"

Ooops…...Anyway, we can spout off Webster and any other dictionary for the literal term, I do not believe Mr. Collier had one when he wrote the piece. I don’t believe he wanted to ‘trash’ a player or anyone else for that matter, but I do feel he has reservations for a specific player. That aside, lets take the blinders off for one second and look into the ‘thugs’ of the NFL. One bad apple and the whole bunch is stinky. Goodell can try as hard as he wants, but the narrow minded people will always rope all of the athletes into this category because of the bravodo of these players. Lewis, Vick, Jones, Henry, Thurman, Moss, etc., etc. the list of HIGH profile players to have run ins with the law is long enough to make anyone’s head spin. Now, name the NFL man of the year winners the last three years. Can’t? Why? Because people(media, fans, and casual observers) do not like the ‘good guys’. Those players won’t grab headlines and sell papers. Its about money people. T. Gonzalez saved a man’s life recently and it got a light mention compared to C. Henry , who is not in the NFL at the moment, I know as much about this case as his lawyer becouse I see it on every website that carries any NFL news. In between players holding out of training camps there were a huge number that attended every offseason practice. Who gets more coverage Plax (Mr. show me the money) or the lil’ brother QB that drove them down the feild to complete one of the biggest upsets of the modern era? Go figure.

60 minute men

by I.W.H.F.M.D.95 on Aug 13, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't really think there's much here

Just a case of too much access and the internet preying on our preseason anticipation where we cling to whatever scraps we can.
Lot of other teams seem to have actually serious issues they need to work through.

by vherub on Aug 13, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Contact drill?

From accounts it sounds like Anthony delivered a cheap shot. Hines was hit in a somewhat defenseless position, as he was not expecting a hit.

But didn’t Tomlin say Smith’s hit on Hines occurred during an 11 on a 11 contact drill? Or was it 7 on 7 NON contact?

by herewegosteelers on Aug 13, 2008 12:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tomlin and Smith

I have no problem at all with Tomlin defending Smith in this situation.

Yes, his hit on Hines should not have happened…Smith was wrong and has said so…Smith’s actions/behavior can be called many things (insert your own choice:dumb, overly agressive, stupid, etc) but the word “thug/thuggery” obviously is not one ot them…according to the people that matter most, Tomlin and Hines.

I applaud Tomlin…the players respect him for standing up for them (why did he not “call out” Bellick? who knows, ask Tomlin)

by SteelerMike on Aug 13, 2008 2:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Overtones

While only a small percentage of people would openly admit that they are racist, everyone has tendencies and thought patterns that show that they are concious of race, whether it’s who they sit with in the cafeteria, which actors or actresses they like, or the words they use in different situations. Would Collier have called Eric Weddle or Mike Humpal a “thug” if they leveled a few people in practice? Possible, but I’ll bet readers would be more likely to think it an unusual choice of words, which tells me it has racial connotations or “inferences” subconciously associated with it. Reporters, as people who are writing to a large audience, should know when they are saying things that reveal their inner prejudices and avoid them. There are words that more precisely represent what Smith did (recklessness, situational unawareness, hot-headedness, stupidity, are-you-out-of-your-x%x#*x%x@-mindedness) than “thugery”, so for that to be the first word he found to describe Smith seems careless, both in precision of language and in revealing his subconscious implication.

Tomlin bringing it up is a whole other issue, though. I’d generally avoid getting into fights with reporters, but it was good to see him find some way to encourage Smith – to prove he still has his back. Obviously someone in the locker room saw the quote (and I’d bet Tomlin has better stuff to do with his time than reading Collier’s editorials) and took offense to it. As long as this doesn’t become a big distraction (like a drawn out fight about language and race), it will probably help build the team culture.

by BadMaafala on Aug 13, 2008 3:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If it insulted...

...then the golden rule is generally avoid the terminology. If you’re talking about the Ravens though…..or many ex-Bengals…... ;)

As hurtful comments go, I’d say that was pretty tame, but you never can tell how people might take something. Everyone has a different opinion. As BMF was saying there were other descriptive words that could have applied to the situation, but I doubt that “stupidity” would have insulted less. At any rate, the point was lost in the argument over the term, so obviously the writer failed in his goal of communication (although he may have succeeded in gaining circulation).

The point that drew my attention was (I believe) Smith’s statements that he had never been in trouble and that he was a good guy. To his mind (and also in definition) the term represents criminality – something that obviously doesn’t apply and that would get me riled up too. I take an incredibly low view of Smith laying out Hines, but would take an extremely positive view of Smith getting a chance to lay out Randy Moss. I guess I’m a thug.

I don’t see the racial connection, but that could be isolation from mainstreem U.S. society for 15 yrs. The term, I believe orginated in India, where there were a group of cutthroat thieves called the Thuggees (sp?) . I think it came into our language via the British colonization and spread from there. It’s used a lot in the UK and its never used to mean something nice, but usually drunken violence or thievery.

While I see the term as more of a descriptive of behavior rather than race, I still think I get Coach’s and Smith’s point that they don’t like him being called it. Good that he sticks up for the team. And with regard to Bellicheat, I agree on the bulletin board stuff…and I hope Smith gets the chance one day to live up to that promise.

by SCSteeler on Aug 13, 2008 4:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lets focus

on the preseason game on Thursday. Like other people said there isn’t much here. I don’t like Smith, but thats because of his play. He laid a cheap shot on Ward. He isn’t very smart. Remember when he high stepped the ball out-of-bounds in his rookie year. (Cardinals preseason).

by steelcitykid on Aug 13, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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