Reed or Dawkins?

"I've purposely left out Troy Polamalu to account for any biases."

Take this POS poll elsewhere.

by Jonny B. on Jan 5, 2009 9:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well, as I stated...

… Troy is an option on the other two polls I posted.

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 5, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Dawkins

but he’s lost a step or two. Dawkins of 5 years ago would be a tougher call.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 5, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

This doesn't make sense

Dawkins is going to lose this poll 1) because he’s a step below the other two guys and 2) Ravens and Steelers fans are more familiar with Polamalu and Reed because they see them at least twice a year. This is a two horse race: Reed or Polamalu. This poll sucks.

by CarlWeathersMustache on Jan 5, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention I don’t want any wounds on our team.

by steelguy99 on Jan 5, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Which one of these is Dawkins and which one is Polamalu?

- 7 turnovers/ 73 tackles/ 0 sacks

- 7 turnovers/ 75 tackles / 3 sacks

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 5, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You mean:

- 7 turnovers/ 73 tackles/ 0 sacks/ 17 PD’s

- 6 turnovers/ 75 tackles / 3 sacks/ 5 PD’s (FF doesn’t equal turnover)

A safety’s first job is defending the pass. Dawkins obviously had a great year rushing the passer, but he’s not great in coverage anymore. He also has an outstanding secondary around him, so he can blitz a lot. He’s a remarkable player for his age, and Jim Johnson uses his skills very well, but he’s not the complete safety Reed or Polamalu is. If he had to protect less than Pro Bowl caliber CB’s, he would be in big trouble.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 5, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you don't think my intention is to bash Troy.

Far from it, as I really like him. I just wanted to see who Ravens, Steelers, and Eagles fans thought was the best WITHOUT the option of voting for their own guy.

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 5, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We will still be bias.

Like the Mustache said, we see Reed twice a year. I can’t imagaine Steelers or Ravens fans would vote for Dawkins. Yes, had an awesome comeback year, but that’s what it was. What were his stats the three previous seasons, please? Can he do it again next season?

Who would I choose RIGHT NOW?, you ask. I’ll take Polamalu. He is in the prime of his prime right now. Reed is awesome, too. If he didn’t have those injury issues, it would almost be a tossup.

Dawkins is very good, especially for his age. I have my serious doubts I will even get to see Troy play at age 35, but for RIGHT NOW, I’m going to enjoy his greatness while it lasts.

by Jonny B. on Jan 5, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 5, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reed is the most one dimensional

I think Ed Reed is a close second to Polamalu in this debate, but he is the most one dimensional player. That said, Reed’s ability to play the pass from center field is better than any single skill the other two safeties bring to the table. I think Polamalu’s ability to be a force in the pass defense, pass rush, AND running game gives him the edge because Reed is not a great run stopper (he’s not asked to be as a free safety).

by CarlWeathersMustache on Jan 5, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Reeds so good sniffing out where to be in the passing game. But like u said, asked to do different things.

by Blitzburgh on Jan 6, 2009 4:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In other words,

There will always be bias no matter what. It’s a poll. Put Troy’s name up there. I think he belongs in the discussion.

by Jonny B. on Jan 5, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I will direct you again to the top of my post.

Troy is included on the poll I posted on the Ravens site and the Eagles site.

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 5, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reed

I said in one of the other fanposts that I think Polamalu is perhaps the best safety of all time. I think Reed is not only better than Dawkins, but I think he’d go better beside Polamalu.

"When Bellotti attempted to shake the hand of Oklahoma State quarterback Zac Robinson after the game, Robinson offered his left hand. His right was swollen and battered from the Ducks' defense."

by MarineCorpsDuck on Jan 5, 2009 12:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Troy Polamalu

To the tune of the classic children's song "This Old Man" (the part with nick nack patty whack)

Big Snack, Silverback, take the Dawg Pound's Bone, the Black and Gold sent the Brownies crying home.

by HighSchoolSteeler on Jan 5, 2009 3:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

That’s what I said, too.

by Jonny B. on Jan 5, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not going to vote for this as I am obviously a ravens fan, but this poll is pretty dumb. Mainly because Troy plays SS and both Ed and Brian play FS. Also, as said, there is definately going to be a bias because the steelers and ravens play twice a year (hopefully three this year).

In conclusion, all three of these safeties are awesome, but Reed and Polamalu are just insane and Dawkins just isn’t at that level anymore.

by ihatethesteelers on Jan 5, 2009 4:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Edward Reedicus

Dawkins is great and all but Ed Reed has the hands and makes plays. He can close the gap in a heartbeat.

I still would take Polamalu over him if they were playing in the same slot.

by Mechem on Jan 5, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ed Reed

Much respect for Dawkins in the pass rush, but Reed is my choice. Here’s how I figure it.

Tackles are, as often stated, a misleading statistic. Tackles made behind the LoS might be useful. But I rarely see a breakdown like that.

Passes defended are also good. They waste a down. They can create a sense of urgency for the opposing offense. However, they don’t back up the offense.

Sacks are nice. Sacks may stop an offensive drive. They demoralize the offense. They back up the offense a few yards. These are tackles that truly matter.

Forced fumbles are even better than sacks. Especially if the fumble is recovered by the defense. But whether the recovery is made by team mates or opponents is really out of the forcing player’s hands. Of course, if you can manage a sack and a forced fumble… well… you must be James Harrison.

Interceptions are better than both sacks and forced fumbles. These definitely stop the offense. They demoralize the QB.

The grand-daddy of all defensive plays is the pick-6. They stop the offense, demoralize the offense, and put 6 (probably 7) points on the board.

That’s why I give this to Reed. This season, he has been a master INTs and the pick-6. He has generated 264 anti yards and 12 points. He’s also defended 25 passes. He’s short on tackles, but could easily be a result of QBs not throwing in his direction and it’s the least important number, regardless.

I feel dirty writing it, but might I’d even give Reed the DPOY over Troy. Troy is more versatile and more prolific as a tackler. He fills more roles than Reed working the LoS as well as deep coverage. He matches Reed in passes defended and has nearly as many INTs. I would also argue that Troy is by far the more exciting player to watch. But Reed does have the slight advantage in INTs and two pick-6s to his name. We all know Troy should have that pick-6 he earned against SD, but, even with that to his credit, Reed outshines him.

Dawkins? Well, Dawkins should be credited with being disruptive, but his three sacks are the only clear advantage over the other two and sacks don’t change games the way turnovers do. His forced fumbles are the more interesting achievement. The problem is, he’s way short on pass deflections and INTs.

by Varmint on Jan 5, 2009 8:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You almost convinced me to pick Reed

But then I remembered that Ed Reed almost always plays the pass and rarely has to cover one on one, which allows him to utilize his ball hawking skills. Then I remembered that Polamalu had seven INTs despite playing in the “box” and covering the run over half the time and often covering receivers, tight ends, and running backs one on one.

While Ed Reed is better after the pick, I think this makes Troy’s 7 picks more impressive than Reed’s 8 (I think).

by CarlWeathersMustache on Jan 5, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

is ed reed better after the pick?

or does he get better blocking from his D team-mates? I really don’t know, wondering if anyone’s watched with an eye towards that…

by acrollet on Jan 5, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

D turns into O

that defense blocks so well, did you see them in the Dolphins game? not to take anything away from Ed Reed but that defense are quick to see the pick then starts to block for him. Very rarely you see Reed return a pick without any blocks.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 6, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Their whole unit turns into a damn punt return team – a good one. It’s impressive to watch actually.

by steelguy99 on Jan 6, 2009 8:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I wish we improved

Sometimes when Troy gets one we look too busy celebrating. But when Reed gets one its like they switched their entire KR department in, they know what they are doing thats for sure.

by Mechem on Jan 6, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Polalamalu

Does not act like a return man though. He acts like Santonio Holmes. Reed runs to his blockers and follows them until they can’t do anymore for him, then he does his magic. Polamalu, God bless him, just starts running around like a wildman. He spends half the time running sideways or backwards instead of toward the end zone.

I bet if you measured the yards Troy ran laterally and backwards after INTs he would have just as many yards as Reed.

by CarlWeathersMustache on Jan 6, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reed

Ed is patient. Not only does he get good blocking from his defense, he is good at reading the field and seeing where he can most effectively use his blockers. In many of his picks, he also has the advantage of being further away of from traffic when the pick happens. He catches the ball on his feet probably something like 20-30 yards away from the LoS.

Troy, on the other hand, has many catches where he dives for it. He starts on the ground and I’ll wager much closer to the LoS where the angry people live.

Even so… I think Ed is the more disciplined return guy.

by Varmint on Jan 6, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

love it

You’re absolutely right. The man expends more energy juking when there aren’t even people trying to tackle him.

by Chicago Steeler on Jan 6, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

Ed Reed almost always plays the pass and rarely has to cover one on one, which allows him to utilize his ball hawking skills. Then I remembered that Polamalu had seven INTs despite playing in the "box" and covering the run over half the time and often covering receivers, tight ends, and running backs one on one.

Excellent post (rec). I was looking more at the end results than the opportunities presented to each player. You’re right. Troy is asked to make those tackles (the least sexy statistic) far more often and therefore has fewer opportunities for the big plays. The fact that he still pulled in seven balls is even more impressive for that fact.

by Varmint on Jan 6, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Excellent, well-thought out response.

Thank you kindly for you input!

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

by Daniel52 on Jan 6, 2009 1:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ed Reed

is a great player but is just not as good as Polamalu. He only does one thing well and that is sit back and wait for an oppurtunity to make a play. Polamalu MAKES plays out of thin air. He plays up in the box, back deep, lining up to guard someone one on one, he does EVERYTHING. so it makes him better. Ed Reed is like the flashy guy that catches everyone attention but Troy helps his team in so many other ways and is more well rounded.

by Bleed-Black&Gold on Jan 6, 2009 2:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I agree with this

Even in the Miami game, his picks were in double coverage. Granted he has to move fast and make the catch but I dont see him make amazing grabs or one on one snatches. He delivers less knockout hits and doesnt stop the run nearly as well.

by Mechem on Jan 6, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If it were that easy....

… Clark would have a bunch of INTs. No, I think Ed just makes it look easy.

I do agree with Bleeder that Troy creates more plays out of thin air. He makes big plays, too. But saying that Reed is just a flashy player is giving him short shrift. I mean, he scores touchdowns. He’s not earning style points, Reed is impacting the game.

by Varmint on Jan 6, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We are not saying he is not great but saying that all of this greatest Safety of all time should not be made right now from his play. Clark does his job just as well as Ed Reed, arguably better in some respects. Sure Ed picks it off more, but Clark is on the Defensive this year who has given up the fewest big plays. Not saying Clark is better than Reed but if you are just looking at their position, clark prevents the deep ball and so does reed, clark has the fewest big plays but reed makes big plays AFTER he catches the ball. some of that credit, well most of the credit, should go to the Ravens D, they are amazing at how they can realize that there is an INT and go blocking like an offensive line. Without that blocking, it doesn’t matter who is back there, they are going to the house. so Ed Reed is great at running INTs back but take note at the blocking and the personnel back there who are the potential tacklers.

Ed Reed is a flashy player, because his rep is 85% from scoring the touchdowns. That is style points. He shouldn’t get all the credit for those returns because of the blocking he is given from the ravens and the competition that he makes those plays on. I want to see him in a BIG game, like the playoffs or battle for the division, win or go home situation and see what he does.

Nobody said it was easy but I am saying that Ed Reed is getting more credit than he is due right now.

by Bleed-Black&Gold on Jan 6, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sadly, I cannot agree with most of that. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

We’re not talking about the greatest safety of all time, the OP asks for the best right NOW (complete with the screaming caps).

How do you figure Clark prevents the deep ball? Telekinesis? He has 7 pass defenses. That puts him behind Troy (24), Ike (15), McFadden (10), Townsend (10), Carter (8), and W. Gay (8). Heck, Dawson (who “is not nearly as good in one on one coverage”) has as many as Clark. I guess you could argue that Clark prevents the deep ball because his reputation keeps QBs away, but that would be kinda silly since you just noted that Ed Reed (25) is the one with the big reputation. Or maybe our defense prevents the deep ball by sacking or hurrying the QB. (Clark has no sacks, either.)

The point I was making by bringing up Clark is that what Ed Reed does is not mundane. Reed is extraordinary even before you take into account his returns. You can attempt to make him into a one dimensional player, but the simple fact of the matter is that he plays the more one dimensional position. His job is to deflect passes, intercept passes, get position on receivers, and make tackles if he fails in his first three assignments. This year, Reed did those things more successfully than anyone else.

Furthermore, while I know you respect Reed for his catches, his returns are not simply a byproduct of defensive blocking. McAlister and Rolle both have 3 INTs apiece and neither has a TD. They don’t even have much in terms of return yardage. Do the Ravens block well? Yes. But it also takes a whole lot of talent to make the most of those blocks. Reed has that ability.

Finally, scoring touchdowns is not a matter of style points. Those are real points: the kind that go on the scoreboard. Reed has 12 for his INTs and 6 from a fumble recovery.

Style points come from doing things with dramatic flare. Like scooping up a ball by the fingertips, or diving over a downed player to snag the ball. The stuff that Troy does qualifies as style points. This is why I argue that he is a far more exciting player to watch. But in terms of value to the game an INT made in the manner that Troy does it does not produce a result that is better than an INT made with a simple, boring catch over the shoulder. An INT is an INT. Results matter more than how the play is made.

by Varmint on Jan 7, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In your opinion it may be style points but i consider style points, when you do more than your job. Ed reed’s job is not to score but to take the ball away or prevent the other team from scoring. Polamalu’s amazing plays do just that, nothing more, only the necessary. The ONLY way he could have intercepted that pass was to scoop it by his finger tips. So that is a matter of opinion.

About Ed tho, that is exactly what I am saying. He does his job the best. His job is to play FS. and he does that better than anyone else. I am looking at ESPN and reading on different sites and blogs, and there are people saying he is not the greatest FS of all time but the greatest S of all time, that is what I am addressing. He is the best FS right now, best Safety? i don’t think you can easily say that as much as FS considering there are other players who play their SS position the best you can play it.

When I see most of Reed’s INT TD returns, he has a CONVOY of players with him. At least 1 or 2 lead blockers are with him at all times, so he is still using his speed but I am merely pointing out that you gotta give credit to the entire defense too. They are making him look better and it seems as if he is getting all of the credit when that blocking defense deserves at least 40% on the ones he returns for TDs.

No matter how many pass defenses he has, he has not been beaten deep very much at all which is what his position demands. Stats are Stats. The reason why they are a certain way can be shown but they are still Stats. The Steelers were leading the league in rush defense until they had to face some tough running teams while the Vikings played the Cardinals who ran it a total of 7 times and then a Brandon Jacob-less Giants who clinched everything. So it doesn’t matter how he got the stats, it is the stat that matters and he is on the team who gives up the fewest big plays. So you can’t really argue with Stats or we can open up a thousand more arguments about stats. Like i said i am not saying in no way Clark is better than Reed but i am saying it is arguable that he does only his job better. You can make that argument by stating the amount of big plays that has been given up by the steelers and big plays given up by the ravens, pass and running because the FS is the last line of defense and that is his primary job. Ed Reed by far is a better FS in my opinion but staying open minded, there is a stat that backs up ryan clark. I am also merely pointing out that you say if INTs were easy then Clark would have more, well like you said he only has 7 pass defenses for whatever reasons so he doesn’t have many chances of getting INT’s based off of that stat. Now Clark is still doing his job as well as anyone in the league right now and getting INT’s are not the FS job but a bonus. Ed reed is great at his position, particularly getting INTs and returning them. You say ed reed does other things like deflecting passes, getting position and making tackles and he does, but he does not do an extraordinary job doing them like he does getting INT’s. Polamalu does an extraordinary job making tackles, in the backfield or in the open field, and deflecting passes, and intercepting passes, not at returning passes or really hitting hard. He has his share but is not quite the hitter as Dawkins. My point is that Reed is getting ridiculous credit for these INT returns lately that have been on average quarterbacks and teams. I would be okay with his due credit if it didn’t mean throwing polamalu off the plateau that he and reed has placed themselves upon. People are saying that Reed is easily better than polamalu all around with even thinking about it. That is what bothers me.

Ed reed is great but i just feel like as of right now he is getting more credit than deserved for the play he has recently been making these past two games now. How come even when someone is congratulating and giving props to a raven, the ravens are not satisfied, I am saying he is the best FS in the game right now and you guys are still unsatisfied? Maybe that’s why a lot of people don’t give props as much as you like. BTW I hope you guys are enjoying your respect because ESPN is slurping you guys right now. They act as if you guys have the #1 defense. You guys have a great defense the #2 defense.

by Bleed-Black&Gold on Jan 7, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

First, you seem to be mixing what I’ve written into what the scabs at ESPN have written. I cannot answer for them.

Second, you seem to have me confused with a Ravens fan. (All that “you guys” talk.) As a fan of good defense, I do admire the Purple Pigeons. But I wear a black and gold jersey with the number 43 all over it.

by Varmint on Jan 7, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well sometimes when i type all of the things i have heard play into my head, and i just address all of them at the same time so i don’t have to do it multiple times at each location.

I don’t think it is possible to admire the ratbirds and still be a steeler fan.
You can respect them, but not admire. wrong word used.

by Bleed-Black&Gold on Jan 7, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, my first thought when I saw his first interception on Sunday was, “Oh look, Ed Reed picked off another pass when the receiver fell down.” Granted, it was still a decent catch and great return. And his second pick was just a great play.

It just seems like many of his picks are on lucky tipped passes and such. I guess being in the right position for those plays is a skill he possesses. And I’m probably a bit biased as well.

Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco

by MBandi on Jan 6, 2009 12:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

From reading this post on our sister sites,

I’ve learned two things. From the Eagles site I learned that Troy is overated and can’t tackle and from the Ravens site I learned that Dawkins is a bigger hitter than Troy.

Very enlightening.

by Jonny B. on Jan 6, 2009 1:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Eh, every player on our whole defense is overrated, can’t tackle, and can’t hit. That’s why our defense is so awful.

by steelguy99 on Jan 6, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ty for clearing that up for me.

by Jonny B. on Jan 6, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

People don't realize

How troy plays all over the field, and makes plays, Dawkins is not nearly as good in one on one coverage, Troy is better at that, and i haven’t seen Ed Reed do anything but sit back in the zone and read the play which he is GREAT at.

But look at all of what Troy does compared to what Ed does. Until I see Ed reed make plays out of thin air and up in the box or on one on one coverage, which he probably will never do because he is a free safety, i don’t see how it is fair to compare the two. If Troy Polamalu sat back in the zone all the time and was able to diagnose the play from there? He will have about 4 more interceptions, No TD returns but a considerable amount more INTs.

by Bleed-Black&Gold on Jan 6, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs