Stephen Logan needs to go

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 20, 2009 10:55 AM EST Comment 62 comments

This is not a post exhorting that we bring back Redman.

And, Logan is a great story. Seems like a god kid. But we need to face facts: He is taking up a roster spot to return kickoffs, and he just isn't that good. Not that he isn't good returning kickoffs -- he is an upgrade (albeit a slight one) from last year. He just isn't good enough to warrant a full roster spot.

It's like keeping a guy on the Penguins just because he can score in a shootout. (They had a guy like that, and they wisely traded him...)

Yeah, Logan also is on the kick coverage team -- and how is that working out? He left his lane in the kick off return on Sunday. He wasn't alone in that... but the point is he is no Special teams ace.

Meanwhile, one thing that has killed the Steelers has been their kickoff return coverage.

We would be better off having two kickers: Jeff Reed for accuracy, and another guy whose only job would be to kick the ball out of the end zone. Imagine what the Steelers would look like if every kickoff meant the other team had to start on the 20?

If I am going to devote a full roster spot to one Special Teams player... let him be a kicker with a super leg. I don't care if he can kick an extra point or a field goal. I'll keep Skippy for that. But give me a guy who can boom it out of the end zone on kickoffs. They are out there...

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I want to see Sepulveda doing kick-offs. His leg is probably a lot stronger than Skippy’s and he’s already shown that he’s not afriad to tackle if needed.

by big_jay71 on Nov 20, 2009 11:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they should just use Sepulveda as a wedge buster.

by CarlWeathersMustache on Nov 20, 2009 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It is getting harder and harder for pro-Logan fans to argue for his spot.

I said in another post the slightly improved return averages just are not enough to account for the points we are giving up on ST coverage. Bout time to ditch Logan, utilize Moore and Wallace on returns, and activate someone who can make plays on ST coverage units.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I for one would like to see what Logan can do from out of the backfield.

He is listed as a RB/KR. We could potentially have our own version of smash and dash.

"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin

by SteelFever on Nov 20, 2009 1:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I like him where he lined up for Hypocycloid. I think he’d make a good check down option and a tool for gadget plays. Not sure how I feel about using him as a straight RB, though.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but we also have a veteran WR on the sidelines for the Hypo. McDonald…has he even gotten a play yet? Maybe not a every snap RB, but a good fast back, 2nd and 5+? Let him get to the edge and sprint for it. He knows how to make guys miss, and I would LOVE to see a 1-2-3 punch of Rash, MeMo and Logan murdering defenses and giving DC’s heart attacks.

"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin

by SteelFever on Nov 20, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think I saw old man Donald catch about a 15-20 yarder around week 3 or 4 that was called back on a flag. Haven’t seen him since.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct

He’s running in the revolving door with Sweed every other week for some dumb reason.

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the reason I like Logan for that role in Hypocycloid is his ability to make someone miss. When we call Hypocycloid, Ben will be looking down field for Wallace on a deep edge route, Ward and Miller up the middle, and Tone running the slant from the opposite side. Logan’s job is to sit still on the LoS and wait for an outlet pass. If he gets it, he’ll have a safety or LB coming his way fast. That’s why I want the guy who can make people miss.

Now, Wallace could do the job, but that would be a waste of his talent further up the field. Same deal with Tone. McDonald doesn’t strike me as the type who makes people miss. I thought his strength was as a route runner.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Perfect assessment

I think you have it exactly how i’d like to see it every time. We havent run that Hypocycloid in a while and idk why nobody tried anything exotic last week when the offense looked staler than month old bread.

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why do I keep seeing this come up?

Yeah, Logan also is on the kick coverage team — and how is that working out? He left his lane in the kick off return on Sunday. He wasn’t alone in that… but the point is he is no Special teams ace.

That is just plain wrong. This is what I’m reading from people who are looking for flaws where there are none. Logan was responsible for the left/bottom sideline. The lane that Scott takes belonged to Andre Frazier, or possibly Patrick Bailey. Frazier overruns the play. Bailey gets blocked to the ground. Logan at least keeps his feet and pursues the runner.

Is a B+ kick returner worth keeping on the squad? Maybe, maybe not. But don’t fabricate BS excuses about his return coverage. He’s been better than half the other guys out there.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He’s been better than half the other guys out there.

Haha, that isn’t saying much though :)

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not BS at all

My point is he is no Special Teams Star. If he were our returner PLUS a great guy on the coverage unit, I can see keeping him. But he is only so-so as a coverage guy and slightly above average on the returns.

This doesn’t justify a spot. (And even though he did not vacate the lane that the return guy chose to take, he DID abandon his lane… and it is not the first time.)

And being better than half the guys out there on a return unit that has given up three touchdown in four weeks is like being called “The Tallest Midget” — it is an honor of very dubious distinction…

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 20, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If those are your criteria, let’s dump Bailey. He’s no better than Logan on coverage and serves zero purpose on game day. Logan is a starter. Bailey is fourth in line as a backup. I understand what you mean with your tallest midget remark. What I don’t understand is why you’d keep the shorter ones. (Or was just a back-handed short joke?)

You’ll note that Tomlin’s first move was to remove Arnold Harrison and install Donovan Woods in the middle of the formation. Tomlin isn’t yet replacing people on the edge of the return unit. Who knows, maybe that will change, but it doesn’t appear to be Tomlin’s top priority.

I confess you do have me curious. Would you describe a return when Logan made a poor choice leaving his lane? I’m sure it’s happened. I just don’t recall seeing it. I have several games on the DVR, so I’m interested in checking that out.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention

The guys who line up on the outside of the formation (closest to sideline) generally have discretion to pinch inside.

by CarlWeathersMustache on Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Logan

I have been a big Logan fan since I caught his act on You Tube when the Steelers signed him from the CFL just after XLIII. I even predicted in July that he could be the Steelers 09 ROTY. I am disappointed he hasn’t broke one during the regular season yet but feel that he will. I was pleasantly surprised with the couple ST tackles he made early.

But, I hear the masses growling and I have seen 3 TD returns in 4 weeks on kick coverage. I would have no issue with seeing what Wallace, Moore and Holmes could do as KR/PR if there was someone that the Steelers could use from the 53 to transform the coverage.

That said, I can’t fathom why BA has not found a way to utilize Logan in Whiz-like fashion (props to SteelFever above) and will be greatly disappointed if the Steelers “cut Logan” as some are stating above and we are forced to watch ESPN highlights of “Logan’s Run” on Sports Center. He may have not broken one yet but he is a step up on the law firm of Dookie, Russell and Rossum.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Nov 20, 2009 1:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

props to SteelFever above

Thanks.

I really think BA needs a boot in his ass. God, what I would give for someone on the coaching staff to read this board…

"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin

by SteelFever on Nov 20, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe...

That said, I can’t fathom why BA has not found a way to utilize Logan in Whiz-like fashion

First off, BA is no Whiz… and, honestly, I don’t think Mike T wants him to be. He doesn’t seem to embrace the gadget as much as Cowher did (before Whiz, there was Mularky…)

But even if we wanted to get a guy out there to take swing passes and move the chains, we already have that guy, and his name is Mewelde Moore, not Stephan Logan. As infrequently as we employ that offensive weapon, it’s hard to imagine that we need guys on the depth chart there…

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 20, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I miss whiz...

I wonder if we can get him to come back. After humbling him in the SB maybe he’ll return home prodigal son style.

He was so flipping good….

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I Loved Whiz...

But Ben hated him.

You give the $100 Million quarterback what he wants…

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 21, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I don’t have a problem with giving Wallace a chance to catch and run. I had higher hopes for Logan, which he has not met. But the kid has shown the physical skill set. I think he needs coaching and opportunities. He isn’t going to get them if we dump him.

Frankly, I’ve never seen so much pressure applied to a rookie.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hear you Varmint. It’s amazing how some are ready to cut Logan because he hasn’t scored a TD in 9 career games of returning yet we are ready to give Sweed chance after chance to drop TD after TD. That TD drop at Cincinnati really hurt us in 09.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Nov 20, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t have any problem with questioning the need for a dedicated KR specialist. Unless the guy makes a significant difference, it’s not a vital position. But I don’t see the upside in letting Logan go. The only thing we gain is a roster slot. Well, what are we going to do with it? We don’t have anyone on the PS we’re dying to get into the game.

As you say, we have bigger fish to fry if the team needs to lose deadweight.

by Varmint on Nov 20, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're missing the point

OK, let me try it this way:

A) Logan is only used on special teams. (and this same argument could be used for Baily I guess…) He was supposed to provide us better starting position due to his abilities as a return man.

B) The results have only been so-so.

C) There are kickers out there who have strength but little accuracy. Generally no one can afford to keep those guys because a kicker needs to, every now and then, actually make a field goal.

THEREFORE: Instead of carrying a kick RETURN specialist, why not carry a KICK-OFF specialist? It seems to me that losing 4 yards per kick return (if that) is not going to make much of a difference in our game.

What difference would it make if our opponent ALWAYS started on the 20, and we NEVER gave up a kickoff return for six again?

Forget Logan… he’s not my point. I don’t hate the kid.

My point is if we are willing to carry a guy who only returns kicks… why not instead carry a guy who can kick the ball out of the end zone on the kickoffs…???

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 20, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

66 Points

Appreciate your post and your thoughts. I just disagree with cutting 11. No issue with checking out Wallace and activating someone else from the PS that could transform the kick coverage unit. Who is that?

a) He has provided us better starting position than Dookie, Russell or Rossum
b) He is in the top half of NFL return men. The 3 above were near the bottom.
c) Wouldn’t take Logan over a kicker used just for kickoffs. Who is this kicker you speak of? Where is he?
d) As Varmint states so eloquently above, " we don’t have anyone on the PS we’re dying to get into the game."

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Nov 21, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed and one long return skews his numbers and he is in the top ten.

I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!

by drinkyourmilkshake on Nov 21, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, if memory serves, we cut him

c) Wouldn’t take Logan over a kicker used just for kickoffs. Who is this kicker you speak of? Where is he?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember Piotr Czech booming kicks deep into the end zone. He didn’t have the accuracy of Skippy, so I wouldn’t trade him straight up… but as a guy whose only job would be to boom them into (and through) the end zone? I think he could do it.

Or…. How about making a trade for David Buehler? (Cowboys).

Or… turn our scouts loose. There are a bunch of guys with really strong legs who just aren’t accurate… but hitting a ball between the sidelines is a lot bigger target than hitting them between the uprights… And (for us) more valuable.

For a lot more detailed analysis on this than I would care to write, check out this:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/09/value-of-touchback.html

And I think that, due to the Steelers’ stingy defense, a Touchback Specialist would be worth the roster spot on this team.

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 21, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t remember Czech booming kicks into the EZ “consistently” in preseason. I only remember him missing short FGs.
Had Czech been such a stud why has he not sniffed an NFL job or a PS spot with any other NFL team? Who would you trade for David Buehler? There is a reason trades are not made in the NFL. Notice LJ got cut not traded.
Respectfully, I’ll take Logan over Piotr Czech.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Nov 21, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Regarding Touchback

Your article seems to be relishing praise on Stephen Hauschka for his booming kicks. You mean the guy that cost the Ravens the game against the Vikings by missing a FG?
Point is that it is smarter to have a guy on your roster that can return punts and kicks, work on kick coverage unit and possibly (with a reputable OC) find his way into some gadget plays on offense than a guy that kicks it deep.
It would be tough for any kicker to hit the EZ at Heinz in December/January. Do we keep him on the roster until then and replace him late in the year?

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Nov 21, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Again, I am not saying we don't keep Reed

I understand the importance of a guy who can get your three points. Czech was let go because he missed easy field goals. I get it.

I am talking about a DIFFERENT specialty — the ability to boom kicks for a touchback.

To me, it’s not an either Reed or someone else… it is both.

We already have ONE GUY who is only a special teams guy. I am suggesting we have the wrong specialty…

Take Logan away from this year’s stats. Give me Moore back there catching the kick offs and making on average 4 yards per return less… How many games do you think that would have affected?

OK… now… what would be our record, do you suppose, if every time we kicked off, the other team had to start on the 20. WITH THIS DEFENSE?

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 21, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree mildly

I think the idea is solid. We all know Logan probably wont get to touch the ball on offense much.

I just think the answer is to have James Harrison kick off. He probably could kick it through the uprights and give us 3 points on the kickoff.

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

has that ever happened though?

If a kickoff went through the uprights, would it be 3? I can see this happening if there was a penalty on the ‘previous’ extra point, thus adding 15 yards to the ensuing kickoff. But I have no idea if it would be 3 pts…

by SteelersVT on Nov 22, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He was blocked in the back for about 10 yrds at about the 10yrd line on Scotts return, amazing to me that wasn’t called. As far as his returns, he is doing alright but doesn’t seem to have the same burst as he did in PS, in PS I thought almost everytime he touched the ball, he may go all the way. I don’t get that feeling now. I agree that we should be using him on offense in some fashion, shovel pass comes to mind. If he could be swapped out for someone who vastly improves return coverage, I would have no issue with that. But I don’t think he should be the scapegoat of the coverage teams.

by DarinS on Nov 20, 2009 1:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

in PS I thought almost everytime he touched the ball, he may go all the way. I don’t get that feeling now.

They can’t all be Josh Cribbs or Devin Hester, man. Or even Dante Hall (is he still playing?). Logan has been in the top 5 KR’s this year. Remember where we were in that department last year?

"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin

by SteelFever on Nov 20, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry for the delay

I was not saying that I expect him to run it back every time, only that he doesn’t seem to have the same burst he had in PS. No more no less. Overall he has done alright(I believe I said that) If they were going to replace him with someone that could put an end to us giving up returns for TD’s, that would be more valuable than the extra 5 yrds or so Logan is getting on his returns.

by DarinS on Nov 23, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

As far as his returns, he is doing alright but doesn’t seem to have the same burst as he did in PS, in PS I thought almost everytime he touched the ball, he may go all the way. I don’t get that feeling now.

I completely agree with that. The NFL seems to have adjusted for him, and he has been a non-factor.

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 20, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Horrible no call

He got flat out tackled from behind. And the guy laid on him.

I do hate to see runs get called back on a distant penalty, but that block directly allowed it to be a TD

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Everyone's a Logan critic,

right up until the time when his replacement muffs his first kickoff and gives the other team an easy TD.

It’s not easy catching a kickoff with 9 or 10 guys trying to take your head off. As small as he is, Logan is fearless and very good with ball security. He’s given us decent field position, if not TD returns. If we’re going to replace him, I think we should wait until the 2010 pre-season to hold the tryouts.

by Billy52 on Nov 20, 2009 3:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Well I think the argument is

His replacement would be Moore or Wallace, neither of those two seem muff prone.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Based on how many kickoff returns?

by Billy52 on Nov 20, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kickoffs are easier to catch than punts.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just sayin', nobody else has the experience

Changing guys at mid-season isn’t warranted unless there’s a real problem. I don’t see one.

by Billy52 on Nov 20, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Moore returned 10 KOs last year and Wallace returned kicks in college. They both can do it.

If one of them was returning the kicks it would free up a spot for a better ST coverage player. That is the whole argument behind this.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

we should

talk about the muff more often

by indianasteelers on Nov 20, 2009 3:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I love blueberry muffins

"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Jack Lambert

by LongTimeSteelersFan on Nov 20, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't like Muffin Tops...

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Me either

thanks for not including a pic!

"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Jack Lambert

by LongTimeSteelersFan on Nov 20, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hahaha, I thought about it and got grossed out once I googled it.

Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom

by Johnny_S on Nov 20, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have blueberry muffin poptarts here....

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like an invitation...

Aren’t you somewhere in South America?

"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Jack Lambert

by LongTimeSteelersFan on Nov 21, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Peru

Yeah I was just in the states and brought them back. Yum. Made a quick visit to the motherland, but I’m back in Party-land now.

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Now that you mention it, didn’t you say something about catching a game while you were here? Did you get to see one?

"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Jack Lambert

by LongTimeSteelersFan on Nov 21, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I totally have the answer to fix our return game

Since Skippy is hell bent on avoiding contact, I bet he’d take every kick return to the house untouched.

Then we could get T.J. Duckett to handle kickoffs…

by pghnorthside on Nov 20, 2009 5:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1 best comment of the thread...

by acrollet on Nov 21, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Like I said above, James Harrison becomes the kicker....

The ball likely implodes upon impact, or leaves the stadium. Touchbacks.

by Mechem on Nov 21, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I agree

They will have to start making footballs out of concrete.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Nov 21, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to believe it from these posts, but . . .

the real problem is our kick coverage—not our kick returns.

by Billy52 on Nov 21, 2009 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yes

Which is why it would be great if we could find a way to take the coverage away… Doncha think?

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 21, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't he god's child during pre-season?

That’s basically all I read around here when he was making a name for himself. What ever happened to Franco Harris Jr, Isaac Redman?

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Nov 21, 2009 10:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

No

But he was clearly better in preseason… some guys are.

Now he is still above average… but considering the problems we have ont he other side of kick-offs, I think we should consider other avenues…

But, as someone pointed out, we could keep Logan and still find room somewhere by cutting someone else… I just want to be able to score and then go into the next room to get a beer without fearing that while I am gone we will lose six points…

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 21, 2009 10:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Understand what you are saying

I also agree on some points but I wouldnt get rid of Logan just yet. the two kicker system was done by other teams before and seemed to work some. (just dont’t remember which teams did this) One thing I noticed about Logan is he seems to always try to run through the pile and then gets jacked I dont think he has very good vision of where the seams are or where they open.

Pain is temporary pride is forever

by Heartofsteel on Nov 22, 2009 4:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Lack of Lanes

Well, Logan has said that there are no lanes there for his returns…

Of course, I loved Mike Tomlin’s response to that: “Yeah well that is coming from a guy who has not run one back yet, so I am not sure that is reality…”

by MarkJoel66 on Nov 22, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs