The toss play to Mewelde on 3rd and 2?
by Dublin8 on Nov 22, 2009 9:24 PM EST
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PrintIn that situation, a critical 3rd and 2, is it a great idea to call a play where the back has to run 3-5 yds laterally before turning upfield for 2 yds? From my point of view (the sofa), I would prefer a play that attacks the defense.
What call would you prefer in that situation? I am not ripping Arians or anyone else. But with weapons like Heath, Hines, 'Ton, Moore, etc. is that the play you want?
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I heard
Arians wanted to do a triple reverse toss. But Tomlin said that it wouldn’t work so he went with the always good toss sweep on third. Brilliant!
Bring a towel to the game. Black or gold or yellow. If you don't have one buy one, If you can't buy one, dye one!!!
by SoCalSteelerFan on Nov 22, 2009 9:34 PM EST reply actions
coaching stinks
a toss to moore? thats a play that demands speed at least try that with Parker..i saw that play ending as soon as they tossed it…LAME!
yoy
My thoughts exactly. If you are going to make that terrible play call, at least have the RB in the game most capable of running it. FWP is much better getting outside than Moore or Mendenhall.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 22, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
+1
And FWP had a solid game running at that.
Nevertheless I dont think that play opens up. We always toss right, and its becoming a give away. We dont toss much anyway, and as a result it was working. Then seems like teams are catching on.
I wanted a Mike Wallace End Around, or a Mendy up the gut.
It was a dumb call.
There’s a reason we never run pitches. A dump pass to Heath, or Hines would’ve been better.
BTSC Obituaries
OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.
by Tim Mullhaupt (HSS) on Nov 22, 2009 9:42 PM EST reply actions
Yeah I would have called something quick over the middle to Heath. That is a pass Batch can make. ARG!
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 22, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Toss play doomed from start
Yeah, I would have preferred an aggressive run play or a quick pass. The Chiefs penetrated early on the toss. The toss was doomed. Again, you need 6 ft for a first down, why toss wide????? How bout sending Mewelde in motion and creating a quick hit underneath or, imagine this, running the ball downhill?
I think we all agree about that particular play...
But I’m more concerned about the fact we were in that position at all. Look at all of those fancy numbers…yardage, time of posession…
We shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Well when you are giving up free plays
And the coaches do essentially little to nothing to fix it that will continue to happen.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 22, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think I'm still in shock about the kick-off.
The interception return drove me nuts; I know that’s going to happen time-to-time (I loved Mendenhall’s hustle BTW) but the OPENING KICK-OFF? Gimme a freakin’ break.
It’s pathetic. After that happened, this entire game had upset special written all over it for me. Every time we kick the ball off I get nervous and expect a return. That sucks.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 22, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
You're absolutely right about the 'feeling'
It’s been that way for a few weeks. I thought I was starting to be a little paranoid. Made me think of the Raider game a few years back, which more than a few people have commented on. Sucks is being too pleasant.
the "feeling"
Steelers at Bengals back in October. I’m sitting in Row 1, directly behing Steelers bench. Steelers moved the ball throughout the 1st half, but ending up kicking more FGs than TDs. Anyway, had a wierd feeling about the game. For all the time they spent controlling the clock, pushing the Bengals around, there wasn’t much to show for it. At haltime, I’m getting my freaking hotdog and beer when I hear the stadium roar…Ben throws the pick 6 to J. Joseph. I think that made it 13-10 Steelers. Went back down to my front row seat and watched the Steelers disintegrate. Left there thinking what the hell just happened? Of course, now we know the Bengals are better than advertised…but still…
i was annoyed to be in a close game with the chiefs too but still, champion teams find ways to win, not lose. and we aren’t a championship team or at least aren’t playing like it. If we win that game, everything else that happen doesn’t really matter, everyone forgets after a win.
by Bleed-Black&Gold on Nov 23, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Quick Out to Santonio
I bet there has not been one time this year that we’ve run this play and failed to get two yards, and we’ve probably run it 20 times
by Steelers in XLIV on Nov 22, 2009 9:53 PM EST reply actions
Did it look to anyone else
like MeMo wanted to throw, but the D closed too fast for him to get set?
"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin
So he just tried to go for it (I meant to finish like that, oops)
"Chris! That's a terrible word! Pussywillows..."
-Lois Griffin
by Steel Spike on Nov 22, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
That Is The ONLY Way That Is A Good Playcall
When he pitched the ball to MeMo your thought was EXACTLY mine…“Halfback toss!” I screamed. I was so excited to see a finally Whiz play in a crucial situation. When MeMo just scampered for the sideline and into a pile of players three yards behind the LOS I was shocked…even though no BA play call should shock me.
By the way, on Ben’s pick in the EZ, the run game was working. Why not give it to “Rocket Rashard” on first down?
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
Perhaps it was an option
And clearly he had no other option. I didnt really see a pass starting up though.
Toss it to MeMo because Mendy wasn’t, ya know, gashing them for 7 or 8 yards per carry in OT.
Mendy showed a lot in this game. Good catching the ball, running it, blitz pickup, and he showed heart running down the pic. Holmes had already given up on it, which is a bit disappointing.
Starting to feel like the 2008 draft wasn’t a total waste now.
by BluegrassSteeler on Nov 22, 2009 11:48 PM EST reply actions
Blitz pick up
Anyone else notice Memo and FWP got run over several times by LBs on the blitz. Don’t get me wrong, Memo does just fine on 3rd downs, but man Rashard takes people out when he’s picking up the blitz. Think Rashard is proving that he can be an every down back.
by Silverback92 on Nov 23, 2009 7:53 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
FWP got flat out trucked a couple times on what looked like blitzing LBs up the middle. MeMo usually holds his own blocking and for spot duty, but I don’t see the need to ‘donate’ plays to FWP. It’s like the coaching staff is trying to keep FWP happy, but all it seems to do is keep the running game from hitting a consistent rhythm.
and I’m getting incredibly frustrated with the Steelers continuing to use an empty set with a rb split out wide. If we are going 5 wide, bring in a 4th actual wide or logan, but I would rather see the back (moore or mendenhall) stay in to chip and then slip to the flat. The empty set allows the other linemen to tee off.
by BlackandGoldWolverine on Nov 23, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Yes and no
FWP should be put it on running plays only. His pass catching (although he caught one) and his pass blocking are poor.
But he had a few long yardage plays this game. I really think he’s got more than enough potential to get back into a groove with a few carries a game and an increasing number.
Mendy wasnt doing all that much until OT.
It sucked because it didn't work...
The call is questionable, I agree. But if you’re expecting them to clog the middle a toss to the outside with a RB with an uncanny knack for finding the first down line isn’t an incredibly terrible call… it just didn’t work this time.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
If you think that is true, throw a quick screen to the outside. The ball will get out their quicker than running it and the WR can instantly start running up field. Running a sweep on a crucial play like that is really poor play calling.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Still, not really...
I don’t remember the package exactly, but give them the appearence of a run (which they did), and pop it outside. Our o line isn’t terrible, and the right side is our running side now (I guess). Like I said, it’s not a great call, but it’s not one I’d clasify as awful either. At this point, I’d trust the right side of the line against the left side of their D (minus Vrabel), I think they make their two yards a high percentage of the time. Unfortunately not when we needed it though.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Nov 23, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Here is a screen cap of the package
It definitely looks like a run with two guys in the backfield.
Anyway, I still do not think a sweep with Moore is a high percentage play to grab 2 yards when a team knows you are going to run. Maybe if FWP or Mendenhall is in there or if the play was disguised a bit more. Still an awful call IMO.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
Why did my jpg come out so small?
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I don't totally disagree...
And I’m going to contradict myself a bit her, I know, but oh well. New evidence changes opinions sometimes. With Rashard in it looks more like a run, I agree with you. With Willie in it looks like a run all the way, I would think, because he doesn’t really block or catch particularly well.
With Mewelde in however, and a 3 receiver set (which I now see we had) I’d guess pass as a defender, even with a FB in there. Based upon personel and pass to run ratio in that situation.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Nov 23, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Seeing that pic actually makes it look like a decent call
There is one Chiefs LB outside the RT and one DB six yards behind the first down mark. Compare that with two Steelers outside the RT, one being the sure blocking Ward, and a FB offset in that direction. At the outset, it looks like a play that would work if executed well. I thought it was a bad call orginally but seeing that makes me change my mind.
by CarlWeathersMustache on Nov 23, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Flippant, at best
I retract that previous statement. I still think the formations stack up favorably for a sweep, but on the verge of Reed FG range I like a play that is less likely to lose yards, like a run up the middle, even if the defensive formation does not favor such a play.
This is why I’m not an OC. I’d want to change the play call with 2 seconds left on the play clock.
by CarlWeathersMustache on Nov 23, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Concur
Having more in there makes it more of a chance to be a pass. However, to me with the FB off-kilter to the right is it just screams run right. Also, note that Ward came in motion from the outside to put himself on the right edge of the line. If you watch the replay screen by screen, you can tell that instantly KC was not fooled. All of their up linebackers and DBs are rushing to the right side. The play was over before it began.
Running a sweep like that is dependent on a few players hitting open-field blocks and every lineman winning his battle. It is a very low percentage task and still not a good call in that situation. What can ya do though…
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Why is heath in the backfield instead of at TE
were he has a much greater chance of sealing the edge that at FB where he has to run as fast as he can to try to get anything remotely close to a seal on the edge
"From time to time gunfighters get shot."-Mike Tomlin the third greatest Steelers coach
by WVPiratesfan on Nov 23, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
No idea. Confusion maybe? To me it basically makes one of the LBs spy him and he follows Heath right to wear the play is going. Not sure how that works in the chess match.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
"There is no FB in my offense"
I think that sums it up.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Nov 23, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Well their needs to be Mr. Arians
No wonder Tim Couch was a failure
"From time to time gunfighters get shot."-Mike Tomlin the third greatest Steelers coach
by WVPiratesfan on Nov 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
there is no misdirection in that play to freeze the linebackers or safeties. A quick toss starts at least 5 yds behind the line and he’s trying to turn the corner in a run situation. That is a terrible play call. It was doomed from the start. That play has a very low success rate in the NFL.
by qwikdoc on Nov 23, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly my point, a sweep is something that works on very situational football. The defense has to think you are passing, because you need the DBs on the outside to go a bit down field and get blocked. That didn’t happen.
Wall of Shame
"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
PIT 24 KC 27
by John Stephens on Nov 23, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Not so much turn the corner though
its a good play to try to dive for the edge and get the chains moved on 2 yards. But it just broke down quickly.
We have to remember we were playing musical o-line’smen towards the end of that game.
Keep Defending Arians
L wasn’t all his fault but once again he could have done different things in crucial situations to pull this game out. When you run the ball good things happen. Glad he ran a little more today but he abandoned Mendenhall and FWP late. Why?
Maybe Arians should have called that option run with Batch on 3rd in OT like the 3rd down play against Jax in the 07 playoffs? Pure genius BA.
BA has no plays for the goal line. He has no plays for 3rd and short. His minions (Zeirlien for 1) have not made his players better. He is a poor judge of talent and I hear he beats his kids puppies. Maybe he can go back to Cleve when Mangini gets fired?
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
I hear Arians is the reason the steel mills left
They wanted to get out of town before he arrived.
by CarlWeathersMustache on Nov 23, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
No but along with the kick coverage units the short yardage offense, the goal line offense, the offensive line protection and the overall incoherent game plans from week to week seem to be the Steelers biggest problems. Too many of their issues fall under the responsibility of Bruce Arians, Larry Zeirlien and Bob Ligashesky.
Tomlin has been here long enough and has yet to make a move with his coaching staff. There is a long way to go in this season. IMO yesterday was no big deal. IMO we are no worse off than after the Cincinnati game. That L left us chasing the 5 or 6 seed. We are still. We’ll see how the rest of this season pans out but Coach T MUST make some changes to his staff and continue to draft well.
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
The better play would be the quick out to Holmes.
’Nuff said. That play works every time.
Any given Sunday. We've given the Bengals two Sunday's this year.
Ryan Clark aka The Hammer immediately following the game "I would give my left arm to play them again."
that it doesn't get picked off and returned for six.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." Jack Lambert
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Nov 23, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Confidence
Does anyone think that the coaching staff just didn’t have enough confidence in Charlie Batch to throw in a short yardage situation? And that’s not necessarily a knock on Charlie, it had been a long time since he warmed up.
by Steeler Fan in Saudi on Nov 23, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions
+1232342341
THATS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT.
Which was an insult to everybody. Chuck just nailed a 17 yard seam like he was playing in his backyard. And subsequently dodged a pass rush, and almost got the pass off for a couple yards. Which in hindsight may have prevented the 3rd and 2.
But anyway that was just stupid by the staff not to put the ball in Batch’s hands. He’s never, ever let us down. Ever. Not once.
Given the info we got about Chuck today it wuldn’t surprised me if he hurt his wrist on the first throw to Tone. This would explain why he floated what should have been a quick hit to Mendy that was almost picked off.
Still, Mendy’s is gashing them for 7 or 8 yards a pop. They’re defense has been out there all frickin’ day. Give the young man the chance to run it in a crucial situation. At the very least he gets stuffed, but probably doesn’t lose any yardage.
by BluegrassSteeler on Nov 23, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions
Problem with 3rd and 2 play....
It should have never of happened!
1st down play at KC 43…. incomplete pass.
2nd down and 10…… Rashard gains 8 yards.
Now, as BluegrassSteeler points out, KC was on the field all day (44 of 66 minutes!)! They were tired, they were giving up some decent runs and we have Charlie just entering the game. Further, KC had sacked Big Ben on 2 of his final 3 passing plays, while giving up 2 seperate runs to Mendenhall of 7 yards. KC did not have 8 in the box on the 1st down play, Batch had just hit Holmes for a 17 yard completion (on a 2nd and 14 play because Ben had just been sacked and Pitt had committed a penalty). We should have been running the ball, getting closer to set up a FG!
They were in a good spot, at the KC 43 and the running game working well. Get the win, get out of there and count your blessings…… but no.
Valid point
Although a 17 yard pass did get them down the field. And ben started the drive strong.
Still I agree, more running on a tired defense makes sense.
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