Just How Bad are Our Cornerbacks?
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 10:21 AM EST
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As my frustration from the 4 game losing streak has faded away, I decided to dive into our most glaring weakness, the Secondary and more specifically the CBs. Our defense is giving up 219.6 yards in the air, that puts us at 17th in the league. Essentially, we are in the middle of the pack. When I look at that and compare it to how I have seen the secondary play I get rather confused. It seems our rank is a lot better than our secondary is actually playing. I now realize that our pass rush is a lot better than I realized. Let me explain after the jump.
I am going to break down only our two starting cornerbacks, Ike Taylor and William Gay. It is a lot harder to really quantify how a safety is doing based on statistics alone. Safeties face man-to-man coverage a lot less and are involved in a lot more than just covering wideouts (i.e. blitzing, covering a zone, spying TEs and HBs, etc.)
All statistics and numbers are from profootballfocus.com.
Ike Taylor
Before I started posting here I never thought Ike was a true shutdown #1 cornerback. After posting here for awhile, a few people convinced me that he could shutdown nearly any WR in the league. Let's take a look at exactly how accurate this is.
To date this year, Ike has been thrown at (TA) 86 times, good for the 2nd most in the league, and just 1 behind the leader (Derek Cox of Jacksonville). We may never know whether this is indicative of a quarterback wanting to go to his best wide-out or that Offensive Coordinators do not think much of Taylor's coverage. Anyway, of those 86 TAs there have been 51 receptions (rec), ranked the 5th most (just 4 receptions behind the leader). 51 recs on 86 TAs gives Ike a 59.3% completion percentage against (% Ct). That ranks him about 60th worst in the league, but when you rule out all the CBs who have faced less than 45 TAs he is in the bottom 20 and definitely in the bottom 10 for #1 CBs.
Now lets look at yardage against him. On those 51 receptions Ike has allowed 666 yards (SATAN!), the 4th most in the league (Chris Johnson of Oakland is #1 with 769). Additionally, Ike is sporting a hefty 13.1 yards per completion (YPC). Essentially, Ike is giving up a first down and then some every time his man catches the ball! That YPC puts him at the 38th worst, but again, consider a lot of those above him have faced very few throws and are probably #3 or #4 CBs. Moreover, Ike has allowed 145 yards after the catch (YAC) which is not that bad considering all the receptions completed against him. However, he does have the 4th longest pass against this year (that 75-yarder against Oakland). Lastly, Ike has given up 3 TDs, which is average for a #1 CB, ranking in at 13th in the league.
William Gay
After looking at Ike stats you might have thought "Can this get worse?", well guess what! It does! William Gay is not an NFL CB. I have said that all year and I stand by it. He is even bad for a #3. An important note about Gay is that he has had 8 missed tackles according to these statistics, the 2nd worst (Asante Samuel of the Eagles has 15!).
Gay has been thrown at 84 times this season, 5th in the league (just 2 behind Ike and 3 behind #1). Of those 84 TAs Gay has allowed 59 receptions this year, the most by any CB by 3 recs. If you quickly did that math you probably cannot read this sentence because your eyes are filled with tears. 59 recs on 84 TAs is bad for a 70.2 % Ct. Technically, this is the 15th worst in the NFL, but only 5 CBs ranked worse have been thrown at more than 30 times.
Furthermore, Gay has allowed 624 yards on those 59 recs this season, the 7th worst for CBs (and probably by far the worst for a #2 CB). At least, his YPC is lower than Ike's at 10.6 YPC (79th). Although, his YAC is much higher at 211 yards (11th worst). Another bright spot is that Gay has only given up 1 TD this year.
Miscellaneous
- An interesting note on Gay is that he has 22 "stops" according to profootballfocus (PFF), which is the 2nd best. PFF defines a stop as "the cumulative number of solo defensive tackles made which constitute an offensive failure (including sacks)." Of these, Ike only has 10, tied for 35th in the league.
- Both Gay and Taylor have 0 interceptions. That is awful. We need turnovers to get more opportunities. The team who has more opportunities to score generally wins, and if these INTs result in short fields that is even better.
- Both have 9 pass deflections (PD) ranked 7th best. Take from that what you will, because if you are being targeted that much you are bound to get a few PDs.
- Getting to the QB. Gay has 2 sacks and 1 QB hit. Ike has 0 sacks and QB hits, but 2 QB pressures (when the defender forces the QB out of the pocket).
- Interesting note: Both Ike Taylor and William gay are in the top 6 of snaps played (Gay 759 & Ike 765). That means that our defense is facing a ton of snaps, right in front of Cleveland, KC, and Oakland. That is not good, especially since Troy Polamalu said this defense is not meant to face a lot of snaps.
Conclusion
How can one even draw a formidable conclusion from all of this? Gay and Taylor look pretty awful on paper and pretty awful on the field (most notably last Sunday). However, our offense is not exactly helping out the defense with the turnovers and the defense has been missing its most dynamic turnover generator (sorry Debo). I would consider this a fair assessment, but both Ike and Gay are allowing a ridiculous % of their TAs to be caught. Anyway, I said before this makes me realize how good our pass rush is, because that appears to be the only thing holding this defense statistically in the middle of the pack when we have 2 of the worst CBs statistically.
I think it is clearly time to work in some of the young guys we drafted and see what they can do. If none of them are promising I would like to suggest that Tomlin and company look at grabbing a CB in the 2nd or 3rd round (still reserving 1st round for a NT) that can produce next year. Yeah, that is how bad I think our situation is. I know that His Hairness helps considerably with these CBs, but we cannot expect Troy to help on both sides of the field. Let me know what you think in the comments.
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Comments
Wrong
Our CBs get burnt in the 4th quarter…yours get burnt all day and often.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
Yea
And your CB’s have been burnt by oakland and Chicago WR. Who do they have again?
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
I've seen you eat your words before
This could be another one.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I would prefer them on rye bread this time
With just a little mustard.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
And shut down the Viking receivers which toasted you alive
Oh wait….you still have to play the Raiders
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
I had a nightmare about the Raiders last night
Then woke up smiling because I realized we don’t have Dike Taylor or Will I Am Gay on our squad.
So far this year, Lardarius Webb is the best CB between both our team’s two starters. Only guy who hasn’t been burnt yet and makes great tackles.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
I guess
If you have a cracked door and a door wide open you use the wide open door the most. Same…if you have a DB that sucks badly and a DB that sucks you take the easiest route. Webb is just sucks.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
Besides...
Those two guys were on the #1 defense last year and they both have rings. What do ANY of your DBs have?
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
Told him to stay away from Baltimore
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
You have switched in a lot of different CBs this year, where the Steelers have stuck with their #1 and #2.
Foxworth stats are bad. 76 TAs, 44 recs, 57.9 Ct%, 605 yards, 13.8 YPC, 196 YAC, 3TDs and gave up a 73 yarder. Oh and 8 missed tackles. He has only faced 705 snaps
Fabian Washington has only seen 537 snaps. 53TAs, 33 Recs, 66 Ct%, 630 yards, 18 YPC 273 YAC, and 2 TDs. His YPC is the 3rd worst and his YAC is the 2nd worst. Also, he gave up an 81 yarder.
Your CBs might actually be worse.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
If Gay is still one of the starting CB's next year...
…I’m going to question Tomlin’s sanity. As a CB, “(I Give Up the) Big Play” Willie Gay is terrible. I’m all for trying to switch him to a backup safety though.
by SteelerFanInPatsieLand on Dec 9, 2009 11:18 AM EST reply actions
These numbers don't tell a whole lot
Steelers CBs (especially Ike) are routinely left one on one with receivers. This is not the case with many corners who play zones or get zone/man help with receivers. Those passes would still count as “targets” for either CB, even though a Steelers CB is usually one on one and another CB may often have help. Furthermore, some corners (like Asumogha) don’t travel with receivers but play one side of the field. Thus, their stats are partially inflated by their play against lesser receivers. Ike rarely, if ever, gets this benefit.
But I think you’re right. Ike has played terribly. As a result (although not the whole reason), the Steelers will miss the playoffs. Look at how Ike played the last time the Steelers missed the playoffs: terribly. Now look at the two seasons when the Steelers won the Super Bowl: Ike played lights out. Specifically, in 06, the Steelers went on their impressive streak to the Super Bowl right when Ike started playing lights out.
Ike’s play is so important precisely because he is one on one with a team’s most dangerous passing weapon all game. He was one of the three most important players in both Super Bowl runs and he has been one of the worst performers in the two following seasons. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
by CarlWeathersMustache on Dec 9, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions
I think the numbers give you a good assessment of what is going on. If a CB is allowing more than 60% of his TAs to be completed it is bad, regardless of anything else. William Gay is bad.
Ike can have a bit more leniency, but he is still not playing great. He is allowing waaaay too much long stuff, his YPC is up 2 yards from last year (11.2) and he has almost allowed as many yards as last year (677). Taylor is not a “shut down” corner, but he is viable IF we have a decent #2 and Troy in there. Otherwise, I don’t think he is that great.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Actually we have been playing a ton of cover 2
To cover for Polamalu’s loss and Gay’s ineptitude. Ike excels at man coverage but is average at best playing zone. And with Clark and Carter biting on playaction and generally being out of position, Ike is alone covering multiple zones. I posted this on a different post by Blitzburgh but will post it again.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_656672.html
It is a really good indictation. Ike gets blaimed for a lot because we expect him to shut down the lead corner. Clark has gotten a pass often this season by fans but guess what…He has the same problem as Anthony Smith, without guaranteeing victory. He is often out of position but can light up a DB. FS and CB2/3 need upgrading. SS and Ike are fine. Now, upgrading Ike to a Man cover guy who can catch is acceptable.
"The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." Don Shula
Good post
Wow, didn’t know Ike had fallen off that much!
After reading this, and seeing the last four games, I am not as (I say again, as) concerned with a NT in the draft. We still have Hoke, and our LBs can stop the run. If you are an opposing OC, how often are you going to run against us anyway?
"We just have to play better as a whole team." James Harrison
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Dec 9, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions
True
But a lot of that comes from what a strong NT does. He allows the LBs to get big stops by eating blockers. Casey takes 2 guys to block, I am not sure if Hoke can do what Casey does.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Casey is better against the run, but I believe he usually comes off the field on third downs (and if I remember correctly, you posted some poor numbers for us defensively on third down). In my opinion, pass defense is the first priority in the draft.
"We just have to play better as a whole team." James Harrison
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Dec 9, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, but I think it makes life a lot easier when you can shut something down. And it is a lot easier to shut the run down then shut passing down, especially against good QBs and OCs. Being able to stop the pass is a by product of stopping the run in our system. If we have to stuff less guys in the box (Hampton takes up 2 OL) we can sparse more out on coverage and blitzing making it tougher to throw (ideally).
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Understood, but our biggest failures are late in the game, while we are in a passing defense. Our Nose tackle seldom plays in these situations, so a first round pick on a NT, won’t help us in our biggest need.
"We just have to play better as a whole team." James Harrison
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Dec 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so what do you draft? A CB for coverage, a safety for depth/Clark replacement, or a ILB to replace Farrior who has been bad in coverage.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Ideally, CB or safety, whoever is better when it’s our turn. Fox did intercept Farve, by the way, for a TD.
"We just have to play better as a whole team." James Harrison
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Dec 9, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but that fell in his lap. His physical skills don’t impress me enough to be an every down LB.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m really not that familiar with him.
Really I would prefer a safety with our first pick, as long as he wasn’t a reach. No one can replace Troy, but we need a play-maker back there, if he goes down. We drafted some CBs last year, looking forward to tomorrow’s game to see them play!
"We just have to play better as a whole team." James Harrison
by LongTimeSteelersFan on Dec 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ike gets thrown at
Because we put him on the other teams best receiver. Not because he is inferior or a weak link.
truth
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
Didn’t argue against that. I even mentioned that. Every team has a #1 CB though, why is ours allowing more recs, more yards, and a better %Ct against him?
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't been a fan of Ike
not because he’s terrible, but just that I felt he was overrated (same with Jeter, I was all over hating Jeter for not being as good as people said, but recently people have moderated their high praise for him and thus I find Jeter rated correctly, so I’ve backed off).
Ike was overrated, he was never a “wave ya hand in front ya face” shut down CB. However, I really don’t think he’s as bad as these numbers suggest. Yes, he’s better with Troy in there (who isn’t?), but it seems (and I don’t have the tapes in front of me to prove it), that when he’s gotten beat (or beat badly) it’s in blown zone coverage and not one on one coverage which is more suiting to Ike’s skills.
Of course, as porous as the D is without Troy, they have to play a zone coverage when teams spread the field with three receivers. That it seems to me is when Ike’s been burned.
I’d like to see what Ike’s numbers are when they face teams like MIN, SD, and CHI who do a lot of 3 WRs sets as well as having a strong TE (Shiancoe, Gates, and Olsen).
So you are the "he can do no wrong" type of fan?
Get outta here.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Not at all
But give credit where credit is due. He has shut down some very prodcutive receivers. Has he gotten beat with a stick the past 2 weeks yes, but name a person on that defense that is playing fully capable to their abilities and last years standard.
Lamaar Woodley? James Harrison? Brett Keisel? Not sure how that is relevant to Ike’s play though.
I’ll give Ike credit that he played well last year. But he is not playing well this year. I’d say the same thing about James Farrior too, because it is true. I am not going to sit here and say how great Taylor is playing when he is not.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
I never said he was playing well
I said give credit where credit is due, he held Ocho Stinko in check twice i think he may have had 35 yards in the second game.
Woodley was the center of BTSC for starting slow and not being the dominate force he was last year. These players are a huge part of how well Ike does, a pass rush that disturbs the QB is a corners best friend.
Our whole defense is different when AAron Smith is out as well as Troy. Troy allows Farrior and Timmons to blitz not cover.
When you need to change a whole defensive scheme because you have to hide Gay, it affects other people especially the corner on the oppisite side of the field.
I always thought Chad was overrated, that’s a different argument though. He did stop him though. However, didn’t the Titans have a big day against him? Chicago’s Knox? VJacks? Sidney Rice?
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Could be wrong
Against Minesota he was against Percy Harvin, that was Sidney Rices break out game and he was lined up against Gay I beleive. I also beleive we ran more of a zone against San Diego and they motioned VJacks a lot to ge the matchups, and really it was Gates that killed us.
Ok so let me get this straight, you want your “shut down” corner to give up 30 yards a game no touchdowns and average an interception what every 5 times the balls thrown at him? Its the NFL not high school football. Mistakes happen, we dont hate on Troy when he makes a mistake and gives up a big play or misses a tackle. Ike shuts down receivers and he has 2 or 3 bad games ill let it slide. He doest things no one even sees, he doesnt get enough credit IMO.
Do you exaggerate everything?
No, I want my shutdown corner to not have given up the 5th most recs in the league and the 4th most yards with a bad %Ct. Also, I’d like him to be able to stop a WR from catching a hail mary pass.
2 or 3 bad games would not put him that high in all of those categories. Consistently bad puts you in those categories. If you can find numbers that disagree with that, I will gladly listen. Until then you are just assuming all of your points.
And no, I don’t think we had our #1 WR guarding a rookie and not Rice. Rice had 176 yards the previous week, Havin had 10. When Berrian was down Rice became the #1.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
- CB not #1 WR guarding
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I’d like Ike to be able to catch. That’d be nice. Maybe 2 picks a season even!
And I just remembered Ike was guarding Rice on that toe-tap HUGE 3rd down conversion they got where Ike was beat by a mile.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO-r31GcSyk
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I beleive Troy had deep coverage... looks like zone to me
Sidney Rice found a soft spot in the zone, it happens
Not really, watch Ike’s feet at the very beginning of the play. He ain’t taking off like he is playing a zone.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
He came up that quickly and aggresivley because they were in zone.
He was able to attack because he had saftey help. He took away the short pass. He had a 15 yard cushion, so if he throws the quick out he is there to defend it. If he goes deep he has help over the top.
No. Ike comes forward at first because he bites on Favre’s pump fake, which is bad enough considering it was 3rd and very long. He is then beat and prays for over the top help that was not there because Troy was keeping an eye on the inside guy that went deep.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
That is what zone coverage is
He is able to do that because of deep help. Okay if you are going off stats, we shouldnt have made the playoffs last year because our offensive line gave up the more sacks then any other team. It has been proven, you give up sacks you dont win. So you can keep your stats.
No that is not what stats say. Statistics can have a strong correlation, but they are not cause and effect. Winning the turnover battle gives you arguably the best chance to win, but it does not guarantee it. I’d bet money we won a lot of turnover battles last year.
And sacks were made less relevant because we were sacking people just as much if not more than they were getting to Ben.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Okay
So your telling me because Ike is in we lose you contradict yourself.
Or for the past 4 years when he has been a “shut down” corner we have sucked and he has sucked.
I never said that. You aren’t reading anything I am writing. I said he is NOT a shut down corner, but he is good. Read what I write, I think I wrote that like 10 times in these comments.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Right, since you know anything of what I do now. Way to result to insults, are you 12?
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Do you exaggerate everything?
All I see you saying is your upset they way Ike has played against the Oakland Raiders. Not the entire season, yes you showed us stats about how Ike was horrible, but like I said you go against the best receiver every week, you will give up plays.
Also I said since Troy has been out we have played a zone. Thus receivers finding soft spots and if he is underneath the coverage and the ball is thrown over his head, he was the one defending on the play. Stats arent everything
There are 32 #1 CBs in the league, Ike’s numbers are worse than 25 of them. You don’t seem to be addressing this point. I am not comparing Ike to other #2s, I am comparing him to other #1s. And Ike has not even faced some of the best WRs in the league.
We have not been playing zones every minute of every game, we probably play zone less often than man on the corners. Ike has been beat this year, regardless of Troy’s presence. Troy cannot be there for Ike on every play.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
When did I compare him to a #2?
Yea we havnt played zone every minute, but the majority of the past 4 games we have been.
Don't have a problem with Taylor and Gay is still learning the position.
But I still think the Steelers need to draft a corner with their first pick next year. These guys need to be pushed if they’re going to play better.
It’s not that I have a problem with Ike, it is that I don’t think he is the “shut down” corner that he is made out to be. Sure he can make plays, but when TP is out or the #2 is less than ample, he struggles.
William Gay is not a #2 corner. Covering a man is something you either have the skill for or you don’t. He doesn’t have it.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not a big fan of Gay
but I don’t think he’s as bad as he’s been playing. That is all I have to say about that.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
Ike also plays better in a man concept
We cant play man because William Gay is slow. So do you make Gay play 10 yards off the receiver or play zone? I give more credit to the secondary woes to the fact that we need to change our scheme to cover up how bad Gay really is.
William Gay is bad, on that we agree.
I am saying Ike Taylor is good (been bad this year, due to TP out and bad safeties) but he is not a shutdown corner. I was more debunking that idea of shutdown than I was calling him a bad CB.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
Ike is not a typical ball hawking shut down corner such as Charles Woodson, or the likes of Ed Reed, Troy Etc. but when you get locked on to the opposing teams best receiver every week, and until the past few weeks handle that task well, i consider it a shut down corner.
The numbers just don't support that
He didn’t give up all of those yards and receptions in the last week. And that average is high, regardless of the last two weeks. Other CBs in the league take the best receivers in 1on1 and they have better numbers. Shut down to me would be 50% Ct and under 500 yards this year with less TDs. Also, definitely more pass deflections too (i.e. the flying duck against Oakland).
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
even if you take away
the 75 yarder last week, he still has give up 591 yards on 50 catches and the average is still almost 12 yards every time he get’s thrown at.
if we didn’t have a pass rush and they really had to COVER, we would have the worst pass defense in the NFL no doubt about it. we would still have the #1 rush defense because nobody would try to run it when the pass can’t be stopped.
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
Are we talking about last week.
or the entire season? Townsed was there around that flying duck too? Why isnt he being hated on, because hes a nickel corner? Because hes not labeld “shut down corner”?There were 3 people around that ball they all watched it and gave a pathetic effort to get to the ball.
Yes Ike the past 2-3 weeks has sucked, as well as the rest of our defense, as well as our offense in fact.
Townsend is washed up. I don’t think there has been any love for him by anyone this year.
The fact is, that was Ike’s man and he was there to make the play. Help is nice, but it does not give you an excuse not to make the play.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
hasn't make a play since Dallas last year
and that was a gift wrapped INT due to immense pressure up the middle and Tony Romo being well, Tony Romo.
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
Well why cant he be held accountable?
If its Ikes fault he didnt make a play on that ball, why cant Townsed?
sorry, not sure what you're asking
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
Why cant Townsed be held accountable for the play.
He was there in position and got out jumped as well as Ike and I beleive Clark.
He didn't get out jumped...
For that to happen, he would have had to of actually jumped. He didn’t even do that. In fact, he did what I did on that play, stood there and watched. He was a lot closer than I was though.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Dec 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Deshea did not jump
He actually ran past the WR, behind Ike and could not jump. Ike should still make a play.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Damn image didn't show
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Ike is the only one that jumped. Deshea is behind grabbing the guys butt and The other two are still in pursuit. Clark is no where around…I think
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I would think Gay would be doing that not Deshea
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
So Deshea is just sitting there..
This is basically a hail mary play, everyone jump and knock it down. At least Ike is showing some desire to know the ball down, Townsed can just watch.
Deshea actually ran by them as they started jumping. I don’t think he knew the ball was coming. Only Ike was there to make a jump on the ball, because it was HIS man. I don’t care that he was the only one who showed desire, that gets you little to no where. Making plays wins, and Ike did not make a really easy one right there.
I showed a lot of desire to be a professional soccer player when I was younger…look how far that got me.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
So Deshea running past the play
and being a corner half the battle is knowing where the ball is. So he over ran the play, didnt have a jump on the ball and in a nickel, his job is to secure the deep quarter inbetween the saftey and corner.
And like I asked before, are we talking about the season of Ike or Oakland?
Oye!
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Townsend fell down like an old man, that is his fault. However, Taylor was still there to make the play. He should have made a play with or without Deshea there. Deshea made a bad play, but Ike made a far worse one.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
This is precisely why I asked the question 5 weeks ago
Where are Burnett and Lewis?
Great post, the number’s don’t lie and my 9 year old son picked on WIlliam Gay a month ago saying “dad, why can’t he come up and cover anybody?”
I tried to tell him that it wasn’t the Steelers style to play press coverage, their philosophy was “don’t give up the big play.” He doesn’t know much about philosophy but he could tell that Gay was getting PICKED on every week this season. It didn’t hurt that I was screaming at the TV half the time for him to actually play corner like an NFL corner.
Come on Burnett, come on Lewis, you get your chance, you go make some plays and Gay can go back to what he was last year, a decent nickel back.
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
i am talking about moving forward
i think he was covering the other side of the field that play anyway
+1
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
my question 5 weeks ago
was where are Burnett and Lewis? not sunday vs .the Raiders
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
If Tomlin didnt play them in front of Gay
That means they are not ready, because Gay may be one of the worst CB in the league
that is scary
we wasted two draft picks on two guys that aren’t better than Gay.
i was hoping they were just struggling with all the complexity of Dick’s defense. maybe they too just flat out suck.
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
We are talking about Ike not Gay.
Its already been agreed, Gay is bad, awful how ever you say it hes bad.
i know
i made a point about Taylor being bad up top as well, they both have been bad, awful how ever you say it.
"Coach Mike Tomlin promised that his Steelers would unleash hell, not look like it." Ed Bouchette PPG
Stats don't tell the whole story
I have to agree that the Oakland game was horrible for Ike but by in large, in watching games this year, those numbers surprise me because there have been very few games this year where I thought he played poorly. It is all a team effort. It would be interesting to see his stats in games with Troy and without. I have a feeling he is able to play more aggresively when Troy is in that when he is not. Hard to be aggressive when you don’t have faith in the safety covering you deep. Gay’s don’t surprise me at all, and I really haven’t seen him play differently with or without Troy, huge cushion, can’t catch, falls down a lot. Horrilbe, never like to see anyone injured but can’t be too many out there who hope he even suits up for the stains.
Put Hope and McFadden back there again and we have one of the top secondaries in the league. I don’t think either was worth the money but in McFaddens case especially it was like going from average sports car to a yugo. Playing DB is almost like playing on the line, your confidence in the guy next to you definitely affects how you play.
I love the term "shut down" corner...
There is really only one in football today, and we just played against him on Sunday.
Other than that, there are no CB’s that consistently shut down WR’s. Because you can’t cover a man stride for stride, with no contact, on a regular basis anymore, the rules don’t allow you to do anything but watch WR’s from a close perspective and maybe knock a passs down or pick one off from time to time. We are caught up in the biggest big picture we can find and forget this is a game of matchups. Can Ike cover his man more often than not? That’s all there is to it. Don’t worry about him being the 30th or 40th best cover guy according to the numbers. He’s a solid corner having a below average year in his standards. I’d still take Ike over most corners in the league right now.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
Asomogha may be best CB in the game
However, I’m not too certain about that. You cannot rotate your best receiver away from Ike Taylor (although you don’t need to this year) and throw to him because Ike follows that receiver. You cannot throw away from ChaWoo because Al Harris is on the other corner.
The Raiders asinine scheme has Asumogha planted firmly on one side of the field. You never have to test him because you just send your go-to guy to the other side of the field or the slot. Look at the stats of Santonio and Hines last week. Both had big games because even an OC as inept as BA can just avoid Nnamdi.
Since Nnamdi is always in the same spot, you can easily avoid him. That is the reason for his otherworldly low-target numbers. If Nnamdi followed Santonio all game, I GUARANTEE he would have been targeted more often. But there is no need to target Nnamdi.
There is a reason scouts watch games, not stat sheets. Nnamdi doesn’t shut down anyone (although he probably could), receivers just get rotated away from him. Last year, McFadden’s numbers would have been a lot worse (and Ike’s a lot better) if the Steelers played this sort of defense.
by CarlWeathersMustache on Dec 9, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Fair points...
I’ll have to take a closer look at him on Sunday. (God bless Sunday Ticket). I knew his target numbers were miniscule, but if what you say is true, that is a clear reason why. I’m sure it is, because the old antiquated system of CB coverage would be exactly what Al Davis would want. I’ll keep my eyes on him. Thanks Apollo.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Dec 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Corner Comparisons
You cannot rotate your best receiver away from Ike Taylor (although you don’t need to this year) and throw to him because Ike follows that receiver
That is not true. By using motion, shifts and formations, an offense can get a given receiver aligned against a given defender. You are also assuming that a CB is going to cover a WR simply because he aligns over him. That is only true if the WR stays in that CB’s zone, or if he is in man coverage.
Ike plays over the opponent’s #1 WR because that is what LeBeau wants him to do. He will end up covering their #1 more often than the other corner. Why? Because the Steelers don’t have another corner – they have one corner who is mediocre to good on any given day or play. After Ike, the talent level and size drops off considerably. I would take Asomogha over Ike Taylor in a heartbeat.
Corners are worth their weight in gold. In the pass-happy, no-touchy NFL corners are worth much more than when LeBeau played and will continue to be very valuable. The Steelers need a good corner more than any other position going into the draft.
"Franz" in NoCal
I agree with you
The rules are very favorable to WRs right now, as I have seen 1 or 2 offensive pass interference calls this year and countless defensive ones. I think we have to adjust the definition of the term “shutdown” as it applies to NFL corners under the current rulebook. Last year, Ike was a damn good CB and probably as close to shut down as we could have asked for.
However, with Polamalu out this year, Ike has looked lost. I’m not sure if it is what daburgh suggests is our reliance on zone D, but it is alarming none the less. Troy cannot be God on the field and help Ike on every play. I’d like to have faith that he can stop a guy one on one 50% of the time with or without Troy’s help. That would be my idea of shut down. That would put him in the tops of the league for % Ct.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Troy is God like on the field
He makes the entire defense better, especially the secondary. When we play a big time tight end we put Troy on him, not Farrior or Timmons, I beleive he would have went out on Ray Rice on that 4th down play as well. Thats how the Steelers buitl their defense around a person to make unbeleivable plays, well that game plan goes out the window when he is not in here. The problem is not anyone in particular, instead it is our game plan.
When it rains it pours, one person does bad started spreading all over the defense. I cant really point out anyone our defense and say, wow I am blown away with how well he is playing.
That being said i think we should trade up try and get a stand out saftey such as Eric Berry, its a beautiful thought isnt it. Berry and Troy in the same defensive backfield, good lord that would be sick.
If we got Berry in some ridiculous situation
No one would ever be able to throw again against us.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Jphnny_s I think your avatar says it all
"From time to time gunfighters get shot."-Mike Tomlin the third greatest Steelers coach
Haha, another product of being a slow work week.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
The Steelers top 5 CB's have Zero Int's this year
What else have to be said, particularly when your D is no. 1 against the run in the league and no. 2 in sacks?
True that. It’d be nice to have a CB with an int.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 9, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Not only that, but examine some of the QB’s this group has faced:
-Kerry Collins having one of his patented flop years after a good year
-the human pick machine (not the Carolina one) Cutler
-washed up Daunte Culpepper
-Matt Cassel when his best receiver was suspended
-Derek Anderson
-Joe Flacco in the middle of the worst stretch of football in his career (did you see how terrible he was against the Pack?)
-Bruce Gradkowski.
There’s no Manning or Brees or Brady in this group. The only QB they’ve really made look bad is Kyle Orton.
I’m not opposed to the idea that sometimes statistics and numbers don’t accurately or completely tell the story. But I think that the subjective impression and the stats in this case are starting to line up pretty closely in concluding that either the group of Taylor, Gay and Townsend are either all having the anomalous awful year at the same time or they simply are not very good.
by pghnorthside on Dec 9, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Ike's problems could be...
my fault, at one point last season, I said “I wish Ike would stop doing that stupid Face Me thing.” Looks like I got my wish, because he hasnt had a chance to do it at all this season.
by indianasteelers on Dec 10, 2009 12:05 AM EST reply actions
Stopped
That 22 stops for Gay seems dead-on to me. Gay keeps his guy in front of him and makes the tackle, usually not for a first down. That is what the Steelers ask from corners.
But he has been playing as poorly as the rest of the defense lately.
Agreed
That is why we should look at him being a back up safety next year. He is not the greatest CB, but could do very well at safety.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 10, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
big plays
If you want to blame the big plays that the Steelers give up this year, unlike the last couple of years, I think Lawrence Timmons is the biggest reason.
Explain your logic
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
I wasn’t. These stats are related to coverage of the CB on a specific WR. Timmons is not really involved in that.
I actually saw a statistic the other day that our LB coverage has been better than our CB coverage. That surprised me. Apparently, we do the best against RBs, followed by TEs. We do significantly worse against #1 WRs, #2WRs, and #3 WRs.
Wall of Shame
-"I’m glad we play Pitt twice, and not Tenn this year." - Brownie's Year
-"BB is ok (slightly overated)…but he is NO Kyle Orton! I’ll take Kyle over Ben any day" - Bronco_Fan_Tom
-PIT 24 KC 27
-Mike Tomlin's idea of "Unleashing Hell"
by John Stephens on Dec 10, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I'm still for trying Sweed at CB
"Now that I'm here, I don't want to just be here, I want to be here for a long time." Hines Ward, 1998 4th round draft pick.
by kick him in the head on Dec 10, 2009 9:46 AM EST reply actions
Before KC, Ike was playing well
I’m not a Taylor fan and I’ve never considered him a top 10 corner.
But up to the KC game, I thought he was having one of his best years. Based on the ‘eye test’ he looked pretty good, even though he wasn’t catching any picks (something he’s struggled with his whole career).
But he’s really fallen apart the past three games in coverage.
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