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The Combine: My Thoughts

The combine was originally created as a cost cutting move to save the teams money.  Instead of the teams sending hundreds of scouts criss-crossing the whole country looking at prospects, it made much more sense to have a centralized meeting place. 

 Initially, the combine was mostly for teams to check players out medically.  They didn't have all this physical "testing" that goes on today, it was mostly a way to physical examine the prospects and check out old injuries etc.

Now we have a bunch of tests that gives us lots of information but tells very little about what type of football player a guy will be.

1. 40 yard dash:  I'm amazed how much stock gets put into someones time.  Yes, I know it can indicate how quick a guy is...but...football is not played on a track, with track shoes, and in shorts and a T-shirt.  I don't care how fast a guy is in that situation.  If I want to find out how fast he is on the football field, I'll turn his game tape on and see if he runs away from people or not.

Hines Ward and A. Boldin (throw in Jerry Rice) are just two current examples of pro bowl players whose stock dropped because they ran "slower" forty times.  I would love to see the long list of "faster" WR's drafted before these guys.  Again, I don't care what his track time is...you know what I want to know? ...can the guy make a tough catch in the middle of the field, in sloppy field conditions, lose a shoe, and have a defender have the angle on him, and the guy still scores a TD...remember Hines doing that a couple years ago? 

Don't GM's, scouts, coaches get it?  I know they all say they place much more emphasis on a players production than what they do at the combine...but...just wait...some future pro bowler will run a slow forty and see his stock drop while GM's/scouts will elevate a lesser talent with less production because he ran a tenth (a tenth!!) faster. 

2.  Bench press.  Again useless test.  There is never a time during a game, where any player, at any position would ever be in the bench press position and need to perform a bench press manuever.  There is an enormous difference between weight room strength and FUNCTIONAL football strength. 

I'll give a personal example.  I played RB at a small 1-AA program years ago.  I was about 180 LB's and could bench about 315-320 LB's, which was pretty good for my size.  My roommate and best friend was a D-lineman,  6'2" 250 LB's, big burly guy but could only bench about 300 LB's.  Again, we're talking about weight room strength.  So, one day were wrestling in the dorm, and rolling around, and I'm thinking I'm going to try and pin him...I'm feeling all good because I can bench 320 LB's...yeah right!... he literally lifts me up in the air off of him, with ONE arm, picks me up off the ground with my feet dangling, my arms flailing, and threw me in the air across the room about 15 feet, like a rag doll, and into our couch (he could have thrown me into the wall or where ever he wanted to, I was completely helpless!!)...we laughed so hard and I NEVER told him I was stronger than him again...that is FUNCTIONAL strength.

The fact is whether a guy can rep 225 LB's15 times or 30 times it's no indication of what kind of functional strength he will have on the football field. None whatsoever.  For example, a player  may have extremely long arms, which would be an advantage at some positions (OT, CB etc) on the field but is a distinct disadvantage with a weight room manuever like the bench press.

As an aside, the weight training programs for football players has always been a pet peeve of mine.  Since my playing days, almost 20 years ago, very little has changed with mainstream strength and conditioning coaches.  90% of them say the same thing, do the same thing and teach the same thing as 20 years ago...bench press, squats, dead lifts, over head presses etc.  We know physiologically that is not the optimum workout for a football player...it's not about bigger muscles, (btw, muscles trained this way often become overly tight and more prone to rips/tears), it's about faster twitch muscles, explosive muscles, functionally stronger muscles that transition to the players position.  I know Troy P. understands the proper way to train to be a football player (I also read where Troy refuses to drink Gatoraide, he only drinks water to replenish his body...yes he get it...all those 'sports drinks" are all crap...it's a bunch of junk science replacing your lost vitamins and minerals...there all sugar water...it's all about the marketing dollars...so listen to Troy, just drink water and save yourself the money) ...his trainer gets it...I know his off season workout was posted last year...as do maybe 10% of the overall trainers...the rest go along with the crowd because everyones teaching the same crap.  And it's why they will continue to use the bench press as the ultimate test of strength...when it actually means very little.

3. Vertical jump.   So?

4. Shuttle run.  So?

5. Broad jump. So?

6. Positional drills.  Can offer some benefit to see players throw catch, throw etc.  But what QB won't look good with no pass rush while throwing in shorts?  Yes, you can see what "zip" a guy has, but I say just turn the film on!

7. Wonderlic. Can have some relevance but I'd rather have him diagram some plays on the chalk board.

8. Interview

9. Medical exams.  I think these last two are the most important information gleamed from the combine.  I actually think the interview should be more than 15 minutes.  I don't know about you, but before I give a guy millions of dollars, I want to spend at least a day with him, questioning him, finding all about him, what makes him tick, strengths/weaknesses etc.  These prospects are so well schooled for the interview, they know what to say, what not to say...if you have a whole day with him they just can't fake it.  I know we bring a number of guys each year to Steeler facilities to work them out and spend time with them but I know there is a limit to the amount of players that can visit.  Bascially, I want as much time as possible with anyone I'm considering drafting.  As a side note, Limas Sweed was talking about how surprised he was the Steelers drafted him....he said he barely talk with any Steeler reps before the draft...I just find it interesting your second round pick you barely interview...maybe if they had interviewed him they would have found out he has an aversion to actually catching the ball!!...just kidding.

I think the combine is mostly for us football fanatics who can't get enough football.  In fact, I love the time leading up to the draft and the draft itself, almost as much as I love the season. 

 There was a player last year whose "stock was falling" and his comment was appropriate, "I don't how that can happen when I haven't picked up a football in two months.  I agree.

So while the combine offers us some stuff  to fill the "void" with in the off season, I just don't think it's all that important.  I think the reason the Steelers historically draft well is because we don't place too much emphasis on the combine 'numbers'.  Every year most teams seemed to get enamored with the dog and pony show and forget it's all about what happens on the field.  I hope most teams continue to fall into that trap...drafting the players who run the fastest, jump the highest, and circle the cones the quickest...and we'll continue to draft the best football players!

 

 

 

 

1 recs  |  Comment 14 comments

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Very well said.

I tend to agree with you on all points, especially the strength portion. It amazes me how much empahsis football programs and players place on weight room type strength and miss big picture of functional strength. A good example of this type of training is found in the military, especially special forces type training. That is how Army Rangers and Navy Seals train…core strengthining by a variety of exercises from swimming to push ups and sit ups and everything in betwee. Sewveral years ago I hurt my back severely enough to require surgery and have not lifted a weight since. To rehab and get back into shape I began swimming, stretching, and core strengthining (push ups, sit ups, mountain climbers, etc) and some cardio work on the eliptical. I am in as good a shape as I was 20 years ago as a young soldier. My bones and joints don’t hurt, my muscles aren’t sore and tight, and I have good functional strength. I feel great and my wife says I still look pretty good too…uh oh, this is starting to sound like an infomercial! Anyway, the point is that I agree with you that alot of this is nonsense designed to keep die hards like us coming back for more.

"Whaddya' mean all the beer is gone..?

by OhioYinzer on Feb 21, 2009 8:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Combine makes a small contribution

All good points SteelerMike and well explained. The hype about the combine from fans and media turns the whole exercise into a circus far exceeding its actual value to scouting. As you point out the individual drills have very little if anything to do with football ability. Nonetheless the combine does make a small contribution to player evaluation. On the physical side, it brings a lot of players to the same place for comparative evaluation and accurate testing of size, weight, strength and speed. This could be done another way but the combine makes it cheaper and more efficient. The combine also puts players into a situation that stresses them out in an environment far different from the protective cocoon of their homes or college campuses. They’re just a number, not a campus hero. As you also point out the interviews can provide a clue about players’ character and personality.

Only a very small number of these guys are already good enough to succeed in the NFL. They all have to improve to be successful pros or the impact player they should be if picked high in the first round. All scouts can see on film how good Player X is on the field in college, and how his skill set might fit into their system. But how do you evaluate his capacity for improvement? That’s an inexact science helped in a small but useful way by the combine. Some players have more room for physical growth, some are smarter, some have the strength of character to persevere through the inevitable struggles of their professional career. The combine opens a small window into all these areas. Some teams are better than others at evaluating what they see through that small window.

by steeler.lifer on Feb 21, 2009 11:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rich Eisen's Mug

The COMBINE gives Eisen and his NFL Network colleagues something to talk about and takes up 80% of the channels programming for a month…that’s really all its good for. It gives us a break from those played out re-airs…

by Heckler's Sports on Feb 21, 2009 1:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

word

especially on Polamalu’s training regimen, results were on the field, definitely.

by tkired on Feb 22, 2009 1:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

INSTINCT

The Steelers are best at drafting because they draft players who are BORN TO PLAY FOOTBALL!! Players who breathe and bleed football!! Players that have great FOOTBALL INSTINCTS!! For example, William Gay. Not tall or big, which is what most teams look for in a CB. But he had great INSTINCT for the game and decent speed at the position. He was a sure open field tackler and a ballhawk for us in 08!! Was the great Antonio Tall Chromartie celebrating a SB win?? NO!!

WHOA….took it too far there sorry i just love to return the hate to all those who constantly hate on the STEELER NATION!!

by BlitzKurtain on Feb 22, 2009 2:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

They're simply ...

indicators. Although as a coach, I’d be happier knowing that the guy I have trying to out leap Fitzgerald for a pass in the end zone can leap 36 inches vice 30 should that hypothetical situation ever arise. And in a way, it might be nice to know that one of my lineman can use his arm strength effectively shoving away large bodies with his arms, etc 25 times instead of whimping out after 10. Or that one of my players has the agility to shift directions and get back up to speed quickly.

Saw on the ‘net [bless Al Gore] this morning that Big Ben is one of the Combine’s “stories” having been inaccurate with his passes during his participation, consequently losing stock in the draft. Yet, here is is today as one of the Steelers two-time SB Champs. That said, is the story that his stock shouldn’t have dropped because of the performance results or is the story that his some times frequently erratic passing was foretold in the Combine results?

by tenthmtnman on Feb 22, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

They're simply ...

indicators. Although as a coach, I’d be happier knowing that the guy I have trying to out leap Fitzgerald for a pass in the end zone can leap 36 inches vice 30 should that hypothetical situation ever arise. And in a way, it might be nice to know that one of my lineman can use his arm strength effectively shoving away large bodies with his arms, etc 25 times instead of whimping out after 10. Or that one of my players has the agility to shift directions and get back up to speed quickly.

Saw on the ‘net [bless Al Gore] this morning that Big Ben is one of the Combine’s “stories” having been inaccurate with his passes during his participation, consequently losing stock in the draft. Yet, here is is today as one of the Steelers two-time SB Champs. That said, is the story that his stock shouldn’t have dropped because of the performance results or is the story that his some times frequently erratic passing was foretold in the Combine results?

by tenthmtnman on Feb 22, 2009 11:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

good questions...I'm glad Ben "appeared" inaccurate or we may have missed him

Another question , just because a qb appears inaccurate at the combine, is he inaccurate during games when it counts? Mmmm…how to find out…lets see…well, I got it…turn the tape on!!!

I know his stats were off this year, but I’ve always thought he was pretty accurate…I know his numbers last year were good and SB 21/30 is fantastic (yeah I know SB 40 wasn’t pretty) …but overall I think he always been up pretty high statistically for passing completion. Again, so whats the relevance of the combine drills if a qb “appears” inaccurate but during his 5 year career proves during games he is quite accurate…thank-you very much? Not much relevance…

Billick was saying the other night how it’s ironic that players spend so much time training for the 40 and teams are so concerned with the “number”…but once their drafted players literally will never be tested again in the 40. I don’t like him at all, for obvious reasons, but I do agree.

by SteelerMike on Feb 22, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

so

what about the guys who don’t get much playing time in college, because of backing up or whatever, and there’s a dearth of game film on them?

by tkired on Feb 22, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Billick has been very good on the combine coverage, and I was no fan of his either...

But who really surprised me has been John Gruden. I hated him as a coach, not sure why, but something about him just made me think he was scum. But he has been very funny and insightful on the combine coverage.

I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!

by drinkyourmilkshake on Feb 23, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've always thought Gruden was funny

That Bucs America’s Game was hilarious to listen to his and Warren Sapp’s points of view about that year.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Feb 24, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Billick's also a lot more likable

as former Raven’s coach than he was as Raven’s coach. :)

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Feb 24, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting

I’m sure there are a few exceptions.

Matt Casel was a backup. Don’t know how he did at combine, or if he even was invited. FWP, as we know was an unknow, not sure if he attended combine either. The reason the Steelers knew about FWP was b/c a Steeler scout, Dan Rooney Jr (?…I think it was a Rooney) lived in NC and remembered FWP from high school…so I don’t think the combine had much to do with us bringing him in as a fa.

I would suspect most players with a lack of game film won’t draw much interest and aren’t invited to the combine to begin with. If the team has an inside tract to a player (like us w/FWP), then maybe a super fast 40, or other impressive measureables may get him an invite as a FA.

by SteelerMike on Feb 23, 2009 11:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

SteelerMike

I generally agree, but I also think you may be putting a little too much credence in how much combine number impact a player’s draft position. In general, every year players are projected to go in a certain range based on their college careers and there are always a handful of players that move up or down based on their combine results. But, those are usually guys that fit into one of a couple of categories:

- Guys whose values drop due to showing up out of shape (or those who don’t workout due to injury, depending on the injury)
- Unknowns whose value goes up due to a great combine showing (usually from a small school, a la Joe Flacco)

Other than that, I think that most players are drafted in the general range that their tape indicates. Using Big Ben as an example. If he was projected top 10, you really can’t say that his sloppy combine workout caused him to drop significantly. He was taken 11th. If he had really blown the scouts away, maybe he would have gone 5th, possibly even 1st, but this isn’t like a guy projected to be a top 10 pick dropping out of the first round.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Feb 24, 2009 3:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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