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The TD that wasn't?

I was re-watching some of the super bowl this evening, and was struck by how questionable Larry Fitzgerald's first TD looks. I went ahead and grabbed some screen captures for everyone to see and comment upon...

Now, before the inevitable comments start rolling in - this is not in any way sour grapes, I have no beef with the officiating, etc. This is merely to point out that while there were some questionable calls, they really went both ways, and I don't think there's any way to realistically say that the refs gave Pittsburgh the game...

Here they are:

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via farm4.static.flickr.com

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via farm4.static.flickr.com

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via farm4.static.flickr.com

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via farm4.static.flickr.com

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via farm4.static.flickr.com

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via farm4.static.flickr.com


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via farm4.static.flickr.com

Sound off!

Poll
Was it a TD?
absolutely no question in my mind
18 votes
probably, but it's a little iffy
59 votes
good chance it would have been overturned if challenged
67 votes
ARE YOU BLIND, REF?!?!??!
13 votes

157 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 35 comments |

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Comments

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Good Post, love the pictures…

I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!

by drinkyourmilkshake on Feb 6, 2009 7:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great post

I totally called that when I saw it live. It was obvious the ball hit the ground.

by SteelerBuddha on Feb 6, 2009 7:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

BTW I do think holmes had a TD

But have you guys seen the pics circulating? It was definitely very close

by SteelerBuddha on Feb 6, 2009 7:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That’s a great picture that the arizona whiners have cooked up. Personally, I’d prefer to look at the video, or maybe a picture that isn’t specifically cropped to make it look like he didn’t catch it. Feet down, ball caught:

Now for another picture…feet down:

You’ll notice that in the second picture and in the rest of them you can find around the NFL santonio’s shoes have grey in the middle. Why do the photos that are being passed around by the “opposition” have the bottom of his shoes being white? Maybe someone enjoys using photoshop a bit much?

Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.

by steelguy99 on Feb 6, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great pic

Oddly I couldn’t find this on a quick search yesterday. As I said, watching the game video it’s pretty obvious that he has both feet down when he makes the catch and that they stay down as he brings the ball down and gets hit. I am not sure if the pic is photo shopped or just blown up and taken after he is going down. But it certainly wouldn’t be hard to photoshop.

Let the whiners whine. Those disgruntled fans can join the seahawks fans who still can’t get over their SB loss.

by SteelerBuddha on Feb 7, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

proof!!!

again, you’re my favorite blogger for a reason

Why should I change my name? He's the one that sucks!

by NoCal-SteelCity on Feb 7, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a catch

The ball can hit the ground provided the player has control of it prior to it hitting the ground and maintains possession of it through the completion of the play. This was great coverage by Ike because he focused on the catching point by Fitz and tried to rake the ball out of his hands and then pull his arm away. The ball was loose earlier in the catch sequence but Fitzgerald gained control and kept control all the way through the play.

As for Santonio’s play, it was clearly a catch despite the photo above. This frame is later in the sequence when Santonio is falling out of bounds, but at the time of possession he had both feet on the ground.

Yes, both plays are close. Yes, the referees got the play right. Yes, end of story.

by steeler.lifer on Feb 6, 2009 7:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agree

Just pointing out how close the calls are…. the one above is out of context – I looked at the tape and its hard to find conclusive proof, but it sure as hell looks like he got both feet down with possession. You certainly can’t find conclusive proof that he didn’t. But that won’t keep people from making the argument.

by SteelerBuddha on Feb 6, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have it on tape

He didn’t control it because when he rolled over the ball was loose on his stomach for a brief time then he trapped it in his gut.

"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)

by PixburghArn on Feb 7, 2009 7:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This post ...

is an excellent synopsis of two calls being made properly but the referees.

by tenthmtnman on Feb 7, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's definitely questionable!

I was screaming for a challenge when this happened because I thought it was iffy when it occured. Personally, I would have thought if Santonio’s TD in the Baltimore game was overturned, this one could have easily been overturned as well, but you can never tell with the refs.

by Seano95 on Feb 6, 2009 9:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Tyree revisited

Just watched NFL films Live Wire of SB 43. Fitz trapped this ball between his left hand and right forearm. He did not have two hands on the football. Does he have control? Barely. Great catch.

by feworker on Feb 6, 2009 10:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If you get the frames after he rolls over the ball is on his stomach and not in his hand as well

It was not a catch

"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)

by PixburghArn on Feb 6, 2009 11:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

I too thought it was a catch but one that should have been challenged. Given the fact so many plays were replayed, why not try one more?

This one could have gone either way.

My logic here. You as mentioned can let the ball touch the ground if you have complete control. But here the ball is kinda held from the side, and not real tightly. Half of one arm at best.

Still I would say if Its me ruling it I give it a TD because he clearly got more control than he had when the ball was at his helmet. The ball was not even in his hands at first, then he managed to semi-tuck it.

Plus it didnt drop out and it didnt bounce off the ground without at least some part of the Fitz on it.

by Mechem on Feb 7, 2009 12:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, about challenging.

Tomlin could have challenged, he didn’t. Too bad for us, but we won.

Arizona challenged Holmes. He caught it. Get over it.

Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.

by steelguy99 on Feb 7, 2009 8:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this is off topic a bit...

but i haven’t heard or seen anyone talking about ben’s overturned touchdown. i have re-watched it numerous times, and i fail to see the “conclusive evidence” that ben’s knee was down. the only place i have seen anyone address this was over at “yinz luv da stillers,” which is hilarious by the way. i don’t know where to go to find pics of this like acrollet did of the fitz play, but if you watch the tape it sure as heck looks like you can see grass between ben’s knee and the shadow his knee is casting on the ground. i will admit that it is very close, but i don’t see how it was overturned. again, i’m not complaining about the officiating, but it just shows me that the calls were very close and didn’t all go in favor of arizona as so many people are saying. anyone else have thoughts on that play? i’m interested to hear some other perspectives…

...die trying
http://www.agentorangerecords.blogspot.com

by agentorange on Feb 7, 2009 1:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I took a look at that one too

there definitely appeared to be a shadow under BB’s knee at one point, but there’s another point where his knee looked down to me and the ball wasn’t yet over the line. I don’t have too many complaints about it being overturned. the pics of fitzgerald above came from screen captures – I have an hdtv card I use to record the games for myself… (those I can get in dallas anyway…)

by acrollet on Feb 7, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed on the shadow

To me, there was no way in hell you had CONCLUSIVE evidence. I thought that was bullshit.

But at the same time I do agree he could have been down.

But you are supposed to stick with the call on the field if the evidence isnt all there and that irritates me when officials feel like they have to do something.

by Mechem on Feb 7, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Indisputable Video Evidence

To me, that means, if it’s close, and you have to think about it, the play on the field stands. But maybe they had better images.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Feb 10, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily his knee

The way he was tackled (with a defender pressing down on his leg) Ben’s calf would’ve hit before his knee.

by Varmint on Feb 8, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ben's rush TD

It could have gone either way IMO. I see #7 knee actually get pushed toward the turf as a result of the defenders knee rolling into the crook of bens knee. If this doesnt happen its a touchdown. As a result, I think his knee did touch the turf, barely, and for just a split second. Kinda of a fluke play, because ben and hartwig were seeing to it that the ball crosses the plane.

by feworker on Feb 7, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Very close

It all comes down to what you see versus what you WANT to see. Yes, the ball eventually does cross the plane of the goal line. Part of Ben is over the goal line when his knee approaches and probably touches the ground. Where is the ball at that moment? I’ve yet to see a single camera shot (still or video) that shows conclusively where the ball is at the point Ben’s knee is (probably) on the ground, but the officials use composite video and stop frames to come up with a better determination than fans or TV analysts.. I’m a photographer and projecting from the angle that shows Ben’s knee (probably) on the ground, I would say the ball was short of the goal line by as much as 6-8 inches. I can’t remember exactly where the ball was placed after review. I think we have to trust the officials’ view of it because they have access to more visual information than we do as fans who WANT to see a TD, and who KNOW the ball eventually did cross the goal line.

by steeler.lifer on Feb 7, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes but...

You use the word probably a lot. Probably should never be overturned. I think it’s much the same as ben’s TD in XL. There’s no visual evidence one way or another.

by Chicago Steeler on Feb 7, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably because ...

I use probably because I (nor anyone actually) has access to a SINGLE image that shows definitively when he was down, and where the ball was at that point. The officials had access to simultaneous images from different angles. I’m 99 per cent sure he was short, but that opinion is based strictly on a professional knowledge of visual perspective from a camera lens. The officials must have felt 100 per cent convinced upon viewing more (or better) evidence than any of us have, otherwise they wouldn’t have overruled the on-field call. The replay officials can make interpretation mistakes of rules (ie, the Polamalu fumble recovery vs. San Diego) but if they have better visual evidence than fans or viewers do, then they will make a better call than we can. It’s natural for us to be frustrated if we can’t see what the replay officials eventually see to make their calls. Won’t be long before we do because the fans want (and deserve) to know why.

by steeler.lifer on Feb 7, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"the officials must have felt 100 per cent convinced..."

right. because they are nfl officials. the same kind that overturned a polamalu interception against the colts in the 2005 divisional playoff game.

my point is that the system is certainly not infallible. i think that the idea that “you see what you want to see” applies not only to us but to the officials as well. the mind can play lots of tricks on you if you let it. i remain skeptical that there was conclusive evidence to overturn ben’s touchdown.

and to reiterate: i don’t really care all that much, other than i just want whiny cardinals fans and steelers haters around the world to shut up about how “all the calls went the steelers way.”

...die trying
http://www.agentorangerecords.blogspot.com

by agentorange on Feb 7, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agree on your last sentence

that was my whole reason for putting up this post :)

by acrollet on Feb 7, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no catch
Nice pics accrollet. Let me help you a bit though. If you use the replay AFTER the extra point and commercials but before the kickoff you can CLEARLY see the ball on the ground.It squirts out, hits his leg and rolls halfway onto its point before fitz rolls over and scoops it up. UIts not even close, you just stopped too soon.. email me at dphanner@mpsomaha.org and ill show you the pics. I took off a vcr and didital camera. Nowhere near the quality you have but still clear.

by GotSix! on Feb 9, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

As I said before I watched it on DVR and it’s not even a question.

"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)

by PixburghArn on Feb 10, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to argue

But the officials supposedly get the exact same angles that we do. For that very reason, they don’t want to over turn stuff with evidence the audience does not have. So if we can’t find any 100% angles that proved it the officials wouldn’t be able to either. I agree he was “probably” down. But I don’t believe there was any evidence.

by Chicago Steeler on Feb 8, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'll admit

that during the game i “wanted” to see a touchdown and that may have obscured by objectivity, but that is no longer the case. the game is over and we won, so i’m being objective at this point. what i am saying is that i don’t see any conclusive evidence that his knee was down. none. i’m not talking about where the ball was when his knee was down. i’m talking about his knee not being down at all. and i’m not saying it as an emotional fanatic (fan), but as an interested objective observer. i think it should have been a touchdown and i really really don’t think it should have been overturned. the thing that frustrates me the most is that i haven’t heard much talk about this. i saw perreira do his bit on the nfl network and they talked about the fumble at the end of the game and santonio’s celebration among a couple of other things, but this was not mentioned, and i would just like to hear the nfl explain this.

one more thing: i once heard perreira say that the replay officials are not privy to any video that the fans aren’t. in other words, we’re all looking at the same shot, so we don’t have to just “trust” the refs. i like this policy. and i think it should apply to composite shots, as well. if they can see side by side shots in time-coordinated paralell, then so should we. i don’t want to have to just “trust” the refs. we shouldn’t have to, in my opinion. transparency is the name of the game here. no secrets.

...die trying
http://www.agentorangerecords.blogspot.com

by agentorange on Feb 7, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I have yet to see a shot that looks like the knee is touching. Certainly nothing coclusive. V

by SteelerBuddha on Feb 7, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't it be crazy

if fans could vote on replays live to determine which call is made?

How nuts would things get then?

BTW-

 I think Fitz was juggling that TD, but i’m convinced he got the benefit of the doubt becuase of his reputation. That happened a lot with Cris Carter and Rice. If it had been any other WR, it would likely have been overturned. I’m glad we didn’t challenge it, though, becuse it would’ve just taken up time and AZ would likely have scored regardless.

 And ’Tone’s feet were down. Period.

by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2009 7:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

no catch

Nice pics accrollet. Let me help you a bit though. If you use the replay AFTER the extra point and commercials but before the kickoff you can CLEARLY see the ball on the ground.It squirts out, hits his leg and rolls halfway onto its point before fitz rolls over and scoops it up. UIts not even close, you just stopped too soon.. email me at dphanner@mpsomaha.org and ill show you the pics. I took off a vcr and didital camera. Nowhere near the quality you have but still clear.

by GotSix! on Feb 9, 2009 11:59 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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