2009 Steelers War Board
by Blitzburgh on Apr 22, 2009 11:38 PM EDT
68 comments
The following is a list of 285 prospects put together by BTSC reader manosteel and a few of his buddies over at a CBSSports forum they created. I begin with an explanation emailed to me about the process before opening it up to him to share the list. Many thanks to him for this great material! - Blitz-
Michael,
The process was long and arduous!
It took 5 of us about 3 months, and countless hours of downtime at work, to prepare this list. We separated the prospects by their positions and then scouted and ranked them within those positions based on their fit with the Steelers. Then, we each created our own overall ranking and cross referenced them to make one average list. We spent about 3 weeks moving players up and down the board based on our own personal belief in their fit on the team. Once that was done, I removed the round separations since they are unimportant. On draft day, this list will tell us who the highest ranking player still available is when the Steelers are on the clock, based on what we believe the team is looking for in a prospect.A handful of the top prospects, expected to be drafted in the top 10, have been left off this list for obvious reasons.
1. Jeremy Maclin WR Missouri
2. Everette Brown, OLB, Florida State
3. Michael Oher, OT, Ole Miss
4. Malcolm Jenkins, DB, Ohio State
5. Alex Mack, C, California
6. Andre Smith, OT, Alabama
7. Aaron Maybin, LB, Penn State
8. Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia
9. Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU
10. Chris Wells, RB, Ohio State
(Players 11-285 after the jump)
11. Peria Jerry, DT, Ole Miss
12. Vontae Davis, CB, Illinios
13. Rey Mauluga, LB, USC
14. James Laurenitis, LB, Ohio State
15. Brian Cushing, LB, USC
16. Clay Matthews, LB, USC
17. Darius Heyward-Bey, WR, Rutgers
18. Donald Brown, RB, UConn
19. Darius Butler, CB, UConn
20. Ziggy Hood- DT, Missouri
21. Connor Barwin, DE, Cincinnati
22. Larry English, LB, Northern Illinois
23. Alphonso Smith, CB, Wake Forest
24. Sean Smith, DB, Utah
25. Ebon Britton, OT, Arizona
26. Hakeem Nicks, WR, NC,
27. Percy Harvin, WR/KR/IR,
28. Clint Sintim, OLB, Virginia
29. Michael Johnson , DE/OLB, Georgia Tech
30. Kenny Britt, WR, Rutgers
31. William Beatty, OT, Conn
32. LeSean McCoy, RB, Pitt
33. Brian Robiskie, WR, Ohio St.
34. Robert Ayers, DE, Tennessee
35. D.J. Moore, CB, Vanderbilt
36. William Moore, S, Missouri
37. Ron Brace, DT, Boston College
38. Brandon Pettigrew, TE, OK State
39. Duke Robinson, OG, Oklahoma
40. Eric Wood, C, Louisville
41. Jarron Gilbert, DE, San Jose St.
42. Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma
43. Phil Loadholt, OT, Oklahoma
44. Louis Delmas, S, Western Michigan
45. Josh Freeman, QB, Kansas St.
46. Jairus Byrd, CB, Oregon
47. Andre Brown, RB, NC State
48. Herman Johnson , OG, LSU
49. Patrick Chung, S, Oregon
50. Jared Cook, TE, South Carolina
51. Shawn Nelson, TE, Southern Miss
52. Jamon Meredith, OT, South Carolina
53. Max Unger, C, Oregon
54. Paul Kruger, DE, Utah
55. Cornelius Ingram, TE, Florida
56. Sen'Derrick Marks, DT, Auburn
57. Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri
58. Fili Moala, DT, USC
59. Mike Mickens, CB, Cincinnatti
60. Rashad Johnson, S, Alabama
61. Cedric Peerman, RB, Virginnia
62. Keenan Lewis, CB, Oregon State
63. Andy Levitre, OG, Oregon State
64. Macho Harris- CB, Va. Tech
65. Sherrod Martin- CB/S, Troy
66. Gerald Cadogan, OT, PSU
67. Jonathon Luigs, C, Arkansas
68. James Casey, TE, Rice
69. Derek Williams, WR, PSU
70. Lawerence Sidbury, Hybrid, Richmond
71. Rashad Jennings, RB, Liberty
72. Marcus Freeman OLB Ohio State
73. Mike Thomas, WR, Arizona
74. Kraig Urbik, OG, Wisconsin
75. Alex Magee, DT, Purdue
76. Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama
77. Fenuki Tupau, OT, Oregon
78. Chip Vaughn, S, Wake Forest
79. Troy Kropog, OT, Tulane
80. Mitch King, DT, Iowa
81. Dorell Scott, DT, Clemson
82. Shonn Greene, RB, Iowa
83. T.J. Lang, OT/OG, Eastern Michigan
84. Tyronne Green, OG, Auburn
85. Michael Hamlin, SS, Clemson
86. Mike Wallace- WR- Ole Miss
87. Louis Murphy- WR- Florida
88. Mark Parson, CB, Ohio U
89. Jarret Dillard- WR, Rice
90. Chris Clemmons, FS, Clemson
91. Travis Beckham, TE, Wisconsin
92. Darry Beckwith ILB, LSU
93. Jason Williams LB, Western Illinois
94. Kevin Barnes CB, Maryland
95. Nate Davis, QB, Ball State
96. Asher Allen CB, Georgia
97. Frantz Joseph ILB, Florida Atlantic
98. Zach Follett OLB, California
99. Cody Brown OLB, Connecticut
100. Joel Bell OT, Furman
101. David Bruton FS, Notre Dame
102. Tyrone McKenzie OLB, South Florida
103. Jonathan Casillas LB, Wisconsin
104. Javon Ringer RB, Michigan St.
105. Ricky Jean Francois DE, LSU
106. Coye Francies CB, San Jose State
107. Trevor Canfield OG, Cincinnati
108. Terrance Knighton, DT, Temple
109. Austin Collie WR, BYU
110. Darcel McBath FS, Texas Tech
111. Marko Mitchell, WR, Nevada
112. Christopher Owens CB, San Jose State
113. Scott McKillop ILB, Pitt
114. Ramses Barden WR, Cal-Poly
115. Johnny Knox WR, Abilene Christian
116. Morgan Trent CB, Michigan
117. A.Q. Shipley C, PSU
118. Dannel Ellerbe ILB, Georgia
119. Jarraud Powers CB, Auburn
120. Brandon Tate WR, UNC
121. Kory Sheets RB, Purdue
122. Captain Munnerlyn CB, S. Carolina
123. David Velkune, DE, Hawaii
124. Xavier Fulton OT, Illinois
125. Kyle Moore DE, USC
126. Sebastian Vollmer OT, Houston
127. Jasper Brinkley ILB, S. Carolina
128. Kenny McGinley WR, S. Carolina
129. Jason Watkins OT, Florida
130. Emanuel Cook SS, S. Carolina
131. Kevin Ogletree WR, UVA
132. Derek Peques FS, Miss State
133. Gerald McRath ILB, Southern Miss
134. Phillip Hunt, DE, Houston
135. Cornelius Lewis, OT, Tenn. State
136. Glen Coffee, RB, Alabama
137. Brandon Underwood, FS, Cincinatti
138. Brandon Williams - DE, Texas Tech
139. Courtney Green, SS, Rutgers
140. Roy Miller, DT, Texas
141. Matt Shaugnessy, DE, Wisconsin
142. Anthony Parker, OG, Tennesee
143. Corey Irvin, DT, Georgia
144. Tony Fiametta, FB, Syracuse
145. Glover Quin, DB, New Mexico
146. Mike Goodson, RB, Texas A&M
147. Dudley Guice, WR, Northwestern State
148. Vance Walker, DT, Georgia Tech
149. Jamie Thomas, OG, Maryland
150. Jason Phillips, LB, TCU
151. Ladarius Webb, CB, Nicholls State
152. Richard Quinn, TE, North Carolina
153. Nic Harris, OLB/SS, Okalahoma
154. Arian Foster, RB, Tennessee
155. DeAngelo Smith, CB, Cincinatti
156. Michael Bennett , DE, Texas A&M
157. Brandon Gibson, WR, Washington State
158. Darrius Passmore- WR, Marshall
159. Sammmie Lee Hill, DT, Stillman
160. Jerimiah Johnson, RB, Oregon
161. Lee Robinson, OLB, Alcorn State
162. Quinn Johnson, FB, LSU
163. Daniel Holdsclaw, LB, Eastern Michigan
164. Myron Pryor DT Kentucky
165. Ian Campbell, DE, Kansas State
166. Javaris Williams, RB, Tennesee State
167. Domiquie Edison, WR, Stephen F. Austin
168. Cornelius Griffin TE, Florida
169. Domique Jackson- CB, Jackson State
170. Roger Allen, OG, Missouri Western
171. John Phillips, TE, Virginna
172. Lydon Murtha, OT, Nebraska
173. Nick Reed, ILB, Oregon
174. Davon Drew, TE, E. Carolina
175. Clinton MacDonald, DT, Memphis
176. Louis Vasquez, OG, Texas Tech
177. Chris Baker , DT, Hampton
178. Frank "The Tank" Summers , FB, UNLV
179. Will Johson, DE, Michigan
180. Jason McCourty, CB, Rutgers
181. Robert Brewster , OT/G, Ball State
182. Worrell Williams , ILB, California
183. Smokin' Joe Burnett, CB, Central Florida (return spec.)
184. James Davis, RB, Clemson
185. Brandon Hughes, CB, Oregon St.
186. Patick Turner, WR, USC
187. Maurece Evans, DE, PSU
188. Donald Washington, CB, Ohio St.
189. Darryl Richard, DT, Georgia Tech
190. Rhett Bomar, QB, Sam Houston State
191. Bruce Johnson, CB, Miami
192. Brandon Long, DE, Michigan
193. Troy Nolan, FS, Arizona State
194. Andrew Gardner , OT, Georgia Tech
195. Nadar Abdallah, DE/DT, Ohio St.
196. Ray Feinga, G, BYU
197. Curtis Taylor, FS, LSU
198. Everette Pedescleaux, DE, Northern Iowa
199. Mike Reilly, QB, Central Washington
200. Don Carey, CB, Norfolk State
201. Brooks Foster, WR, North Carolina
202. Andy Kemp, OG, Wisconsin
203. Kenny McKinley, WR, South Carolina
204. Kevin Ellison, SS, USC
205. C.J. Spillman, FS, Marshall
206. (Ambassador of) Quan Cosby, WR, Texas
207. Sammie Stroughter, WR, Oregon St.
208. Lee Robinson, OLB, Alcorn State
209. Cameron Morrah, TE, California
210. Zach Potter, DE, Nebraska
211. Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, Georgia
212. Antonio Appleby, ILB, Virginia
213. Anthony Hill, TE, North Carolina St.
214. Otis Wiley, S, Michigan
215. Augustus Parrish, OT, Kent State
216. Orion Martin, OLB, Virginia Tech
217. Derek Walker, DE, Illinois
218. Brannan Southerland, FB, Georgia
219. Kaluka Malava, LB, USC
220. Dan Gronkowski, TE, Maryland
221. John Phillips, TE, Virginia
222. Henry Melton, DE, Texas
223. Cedrick Dockery, G, Texas
224. Ian Johnson, RB, Boise St.
225. Jake Visser, Ferris State
226. Aaron Kelly, WR, Clemson
227. Jamarca Sanford, SS, Ole Miss
228. Ryan Stamper, LB, Florida
229. Tom Brandstater, QB, Fresno St
230. Carson Butler, TE, Michigan
231. E.J. Biggers, CB, Western Michigan
232. Adrian Grady, DT, Louisville
233. Devin Moore, RB, Wyoming
234. Vince Anderson, CB, Webber International University
235. Javarris Williams RB Tenn State
236. Jeremy Navaro, DE, Maryland
237. Garret Reynolds, OT, UNC
238. Ramon Foster OT/OG UTenn
239. Cecil Newton C Tennesee State
240. Ryan Stanchek OT WVU
241. Gatrell Johnson RB Colorado ST
242. Stephen McGee QB Texas A &M
243. Ra'Shon Harris DT Oregon
244. Tyrell Sutton RB Northwestern
245. Antonio Dixon, DT, Miami
246. Richard Quinn TE UNC
247. Brian Hoyer QB Mich State
248. Kevin Ellison SS USC
249. Bear Pasoe TE Fresno St
250. Josh Mauga ILB Nevada
251. Khalif Mitchell DT East Carolina
252. Deon Butler WR Penn State
253. Stryker Sulak DE Missouri
254. Michael Tauiliili ILB DUKE
255. Wopamo Gsaisai CB Stanford - speed - 4.39
256. Jackie Bates CB Hampton - speed 4.36
257. Adrian Grady, DT, Louisville
258. Kyle Link OT NcNeese St
259. CJ Davis G Pittsburgh
260. Matt Slauson OG Nebraska
261. Jamarko Simmons WR Western Mich
262. Andrew Hartline OT Central Mich
263. Vaughn Martin, DT, Western Ontario
264. Chris Ogbonnays, RB, Texas
265. Mike Teel, QB, Rutgers
266. Aaron Brown RB TCU
267. Pannel Egboh DE Stanford
268. Chris Pizotti QB - Harvard
269. Travis Bright G BYU
270. Greg Isdaner OG WVU
271. Stephan Hodge, LB, TCU
272. Manual Johnson WR Oklahoma
273. PJ Hill RB Wisconsin
274. Colt Anderson CB Montana
275. Ryan Delrosal OL Dixie State
276. Bradley Fletcher CB Iowa
277. Marlon Lucky RB Nebraska
278. Russell Allen OLB San Diego State
279. Spencer Adkins ILB Miami
280. Kory Sperry TE Colorado State
281. Jordon Norwood WR Penn State
282. Jeff Schweiger DE San Jose St
283. Michael Ray Garvin CB/KR Florida St
284. Rulon Davis DE CAL
285. Blake Schlueter C TCU
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Great job!
Can you clarify this, though?
You have Mack ranked at 5, Wood at 40. I remember Wood is much stronger than Mack, but Mack is considered a great signal caller (which I would love for our line). You put much more separation between these two than ratings of late.
What is Wood’s weakness in comparison?
by betelgeuse on Apr 23, 2009 12:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wood has moved up boards lately, but was widely considered a 3rd round prospect for most of the offseason. We all felt that Alex Mack was the best Center prospect in the last 10 years, and therefore, as a position of need, deserved to be this high on the board. It wasn’t a knock on Wood, he’s a fantastic player and I would loive to have him, but in the second round, not the first.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WR First
You spent 3 months on this and put a WR first? I must not understand your ranking process. WR is the riskiest position to draft in the first round, and many capable WRs will be available in the later rounds of this year’s class.
I guess it could happen, but with Sweed developing, and with 1 more year on Ward … I’d be amazed.
Then again, Mendenhall was a bit of a surprise, so who knows?
by PaulMorel on Apr 23, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Paul…I understand, trust me, I felt the same way. The reality is, though, by leaving the top players, like Crabtree, Smith, Curry, Sanchez, Stafford, etc. off this list, Maclin, by default, became the highest rated player. Can you honestly say you wouldn’t give it serious thought if he were there at #32? BPA, right? lol.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to have Maclin
That would give us a Holmes, Sweed, and Maclin Trio for the future. Could you imagine?
It's true what they say...Even the NFL's Big Wigs hate the Steelers. On the plus side, I can now tell my future grand kids about Hines Ward and how the NFL made rules because of him. Roger Goodell, you make me sick.
by HighSchoolSteeler on Apr 23, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ruling out a WR at #32 would be pretty short sighted. There is some serious depth to the position this year and there are plenty of guys I love in the later rounds, like Mike Thomas, Juaquin Iglesias, and Brandon Tate(who may fall into round 5 or 6, thanks to that positive drug test). That said, WR is a position of need. Ward is 33, Sweed has some bust potential and you don’t sign a QB to a $100 million contact and not surround him with weapons.
I would prefer a different position, like O-line or CB, at #32, but if by some miracle a guy like Maclin fell to us, I would look long and hard at that pick before passing him up.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The steelers have shown time and time again that they will not pass on talent that falls into their lap. I cannot see the steelers passing on a very gifted receiver that is a fantastic receiver with the speed to easily make us forget Nate.
As the draft board…the steelers will not pass on Maclin at 1.32. You can take that to the bank, but he’ll never fall that far.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
We will draft Maclin if we get the chance, although I’d still think if it was between him and Oher or Smith, we’d take the tackle. Maybe Jenkins, too, although it’s all hypothetical anyway.
On the other hand, there’s no way we’d draft Wells, Moreno, or Brown in the first. I can also almost guarantee you that at least one of the 8 LB’s (including Barwin) you have in the top 22 will be available at our pick, but we’ll pass on them for a guy like Butler, Heyward-Bey, or Hood.
That’s actually my worst case scenario – a ton of RB’s and LB’s that no one really likes all that much being the top values at our pick. Because of our escapades last year, we’re really stacked at some positions and understocked at others. It seems likely that we could see a trade.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Apr 24, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m actually on the fence about a RB. I have never been a big believer in drafting a RB in round 1. Their careers are too fragile and you can usually find good RBs in the middle rounds. Having said that, RB is certainly a position of need. Willie Parker is in the last year of his contract and isn’t likely to be back in 2010. Rashard Mendenhall, while talented, has proven only that he may be fragile. I’m not a big Beanie Wells fan because of his injury history, but if Moreno were there, I’d take more than a cursory glance.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 24, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. Obviously in putting together something like this, there’s a lot of conflicting thoughts that get averaged out.
I will say this, though: right now we have 3 RB’s I’d feel comfortable starting on a given week. RB is one of the easiest position to start at as a rookie, so if we need a RB in 2010, we can think about first rounders then or just find a cheap FA or mid round pick then.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Apr 24, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your logic is sound Maafala so I won’t argue with you! lol. We just couldn’t, in good conscience, leave prospects like Wells and Moreno off the list.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 24, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, could be a good scenario
Having a few first-round rated guys drop to 32 like Harvin, Wells and Laurinaitis drop to 32 could be a good thing. Most of the guys I like for our first pick are ranked in the middle of Round 2, between 40-55. Best way to get two out of that group is to trade down, then use the extra pick(s) along with our second-rounder to move up from 64.
by steeler.lifer on Apr 25, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wood stronger than Alex Mack?
Here is something I found at:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/profiles/alex-mack?id=71375#profiles-tabs:players-overview
A few of the highlights to that article:
The two-time finalist for the Rimington Trophy.
His power clean lift of 374 pounds is a school record for all positions.
Mack was recently awarded the Draddy Trophy
He was named the Pac-10 Conference’s Scholar-Athlete of the Year in 2008
Mack is usually the last lineman off the field after practice, always getting in a little extra footwork and hand work while other players grab some Gatorade
he is surprisingly quick. He can run the 40-yard dash in 5.0 seconds, a feat only four linemen at the 2008 NFL Combine surpassed. That quickness and Mack’s brute strength have terrorized opposing defensive lines.
Mack was named the Pac-10 Conference’s Morris Trophy winner in 2008, it marked the second time he had received that honor
In 2006 he earned All-Pac 10 first-team and Academic All-League second-team recognition
Mack received All-American and All-Pac-10 first-team honors in 2007.
Mack was again awarded with All-American and All-Pac-10 Conference honors as a senior. He was a finalist for both the Lombardi Award and Rimington Trophy and received numerous national honors for academics. On the field, he started all 13 games in the pivot. He again paced the Bears with 92 knockdowns/key blocks and matched his junior season total with 11 touchdown-resulting blocks.
by imike29 on Apr 23, 2009 8:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
from draftcountdown.com - your scouting mileage may vary
Mack and Wood have virtually the same pros. Nasty, hard working, smart, agile (with mack moreso). Now lets look at their weaknesses:
Mack:
Does not have great balance and spends too much time on the ground…A little stiff in the hips…Not real light on his feet…Shorter arms than you’d prefer…Can be too aggressive at times…Will get out of control … Susceptible to being overwhelmed by massive defenders.
Everyone has weaknesses, his are pretty minor. Now for
Wood:
Looks a little stiff…Isn’t overly powerful…Can get pushed backwards in pass protection…Not a true road grader in the run game…Is not a natural knee bender…Average awareness…Has trouble with enormous nose tackles…Does not always use proper leverage…Upside is limited.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way I read the draft board for centers, and your morning poetry:
If you aren’t going to get the best, might as well wait for the rest.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steelguy99
Like the piece from draftcountdown.com, thanks!
As for Mack, BallsofSteel typed up a great piece on him here on our boards, I’ll repost it: (It concerned Mayock rating Unger and Wood over Mack)
“He hasn’t seen Mack play but I’m not sure it matters. It is curious that he ranks both of the guys that he has seen higher. After watching the senior bowl and the way BJ Raji absolutely dominated Max Unger I don’t want to touch that guy with a ten foot pole. I think Mayock ranks him high because of his position flexibility and solid technique and downranks Mack because he is more of a true center and less flexible. The problem is Unger isn’t physical enough to deal with what he will see in our division. He’s the second coming of Hartwig except without the experience.
I think Mayock downgrades Mack too severely for a couple of reasons here. I’ve seen him say multiple times that he’s on the ground too often, something I agree with. About half the time he’s on the ground though it’s because he is cut blocking and taking out multiple defenders, it’s actually a part of his repertoire. I don’t think that can be in his MO in the NFL, he will have to learn to stay on his feet. The other half of the time I see him falling from over pursuing his man, over commiting to a block, and losing his balance. I think that can be coached out of him, but the reason he’s on his ass isn’t because he’s getting handled, it’s because he’s over doing it. I’d rather have a guy with too much motor, rather than someone who isn’t physical enough to make that mistake in the first place. Either way I agree it happens too often but it’s not as big of a detriment when I look at it in that light. Mayock instead I think hasn’t seen enough of Mack but does see a possible huge flaw here and is wondering if this guy will go wonky in the NFL. Remember it is almost more important for someone in his position to miss the best player rather than pick the dud, and he has to go through a ton of players every off season. I rack this one up to not enough research.
Almost every other draft analyst has Mack as the best Center in the draft. I think he’s actually one of the best O-line available."
I could not agree more with Balls, Mack has a high motor, plays until the whistle every down, he is big, strong and a mauler. I think he is the best interior lineman availbale in this year’s draft. To get this guy at 1.32 would be a steal.
by imike29 on Apr 23, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d love to hear more explanation for certain players. I won’t disagree with anything here because the people who did it probably spent a lot of time on it, and I’m sure they took dozens of different factors into account. Also, it’s clear that they didn’t just go with the status quo for rankings, as witnessed by the Mack/Wood discrepancy and lower ranking / higher rankings for players that straight-up are rated much differently in the general draft board.
Well done guys, very complete set.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
steelguy…feel free to disagree! That’s what this is all about. The five of us disagreed on most of the prospects in some way and we are still fighting about some of the rankings. There is no way that we are all going to agree with every ranking. What we really tried to accomplish, was to take not a only a player’s ability into account, but his attitude, character and fit within our system.
I would love to hear some more ideas on who some think are too high or too low, that’s why I e-mailed this list to blitz.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, too easy to nitpick. For example, even if Chris Wells is available at 1.32 I sincerely doubt he would be on the steelers draft board above Davis. Not a big fan of davis, but some here are, and assuming he’s a legitimate CB the steelers are interested, I have to think the steelers go with BPA in an area of need instead of BPA in another. Two first round picks at RB for a guy who has dropped? Too much.
If you guys had a list of all the reasons that went into each pick I’d be interested, but it has to be impossible to reach a consensus on a whole draft board when it’s not your job.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, its virtually impossible to reach a consensus. Many of us thought of leaving the top RBs off the board completely, since it seemed very unlikely that we would draft one in round 1 this year. The problem with that is you leave yourself open to missing somebody that the team may value. Last year, we left Mendenhall off the list because we felt he wouldn’t be there at #23…oops! lol.
If you want to see the reasons for all the picks feel free to copy and paste this address…
http://steelers-war-board.groups.cbssports.com/mcc/groups/group/13754654
I hope that doesn’t violate any rules, if so, I appologize. Including any analysis of the prospects in this list would have been far too bulky for its intended purpose.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
course not.
now that i know the link myself, will include link in the post. thanks!
by Blitzburgh on Apr 23, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just so everybody knows, that link goes to the War Board group and has about 30 different threads that were used to analyze the different players. Feel free to read through it, some of the other guys in there are far more knowledgable than I.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would start the list with
the two top OTs in your top 10, Oher and Smith. If either of them were there at 1.32 I’d go crazy if the Steelers didn’t take them.
by Blitzburgh on Apr 23, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
blitz…you and me both. Although it would still be close between Oher and Mack. I think that both Andre Smith and Michael Oher have bust potential, where Mack is, in my opinion, the safest pick in the draft.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tricky one because center is our most solid position too, and Mack doesn’t seem to be too interested in guard. So do you have that play into tackle position on the draft board or not? Or do you just go for BPA on the O-line.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I agree that Center is a solid position for us. Hartwig gave up the most sacks of any Center in the NFL last year and he rarely got any push in the running game. We have Stapleton, who is really too small for Guard, behind him, but I think Mack is an instant upgrade in the middle or at either Guard spot. Starks is underrated as a LT but I would love to find a replacement for Colon on the right side. I would love to see Tony Hills take a big step this year and compete with Colon. I just don’t see Tackle as our biggest need on the line.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said Hartwig was solid, I said most solid.
Colon is lousy, Hills sucked last year and maybe takes a step this year, but who knows? Word is that starks is unlikely to be restructured, Colon plays out his contract this year.
Hartwig’s contract is done too, but he could be resigned reasonably and is actually worth doing so, and as you say Stapleton, who despite being undersized for guard did a reasonable job, could probably step into the spot.
Our depth is deplorable, but our most solid position is Hartwig-Stapleton at the center position.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wolfley comment
I’ve seen the sack stat. Still I wonder what would make Wolfley say that Hartwig was just behind FHOF Hartings in his play last year. That’s high praise from a guy who knows the O-line well and was not afraid to be critical of other positions.
So is Hartwig just shy of great or just shy of sucky?
My own personal – not very professional -opinion is that he and Max Starks were far and away the most solid and reliable guys on a lousy offensive line. Playing in between Kemouatu and Stapelton, probably helped cause many of those sacks.
by SteelerBuddha on Apr 24, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that Kemo gets a bad rap. He struggled with his communication all year and that certainly affected the interior line play but saying that Hartwig’s struggles were purely because of the players around him is naive.
Justin Hartwig just isn’t enough of an improvement over “He who shall not be named.” He gets eaten alive by the better DTs in the league and the tape doesn’t lie about that.
As for Jeff Hartings…I’m sorry, but he isn’t a future Hall of Famer. If Dermonti Dawson can’t get into Canton, Hartings has no shot.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 24, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not my analysis
Again, like I said, this is not my analysis. It comes from former Steeler linemen and current analyst Craig Wolfley. I think he knows this line a whole lot better than I do. This is what he had to said about the line.
I thought Justin Hartwig was exceptional. He was just a notch below Jeff Hartings and mind you, this was his first year with a new team and new teammates. I thought Max (Starks) got better as the year wore on. He really grew into that left tackle position. Chris Kemoeatu has terrific upside, he really does, but he’s so darned inconsistent it’s frustrating. If the coaches can find a way to get more hot and less cold we could really be happy with this guy. Willie Colon is making strides and Stapleton got thrown into the guard position when Kendall Simmons went down. Considering Stapleton is really a center, he did better than I thought he would do.
I am guessing this guy understands a whole lot more about our offensive line than pretty much anyone posting on this board. The only linemen who gets unqualified praise from him is Hartwig. To me that speaks volumes. You are right about Hartings and the hall, but he was clearly an outstanding center.
by SteelerBuddha on Apr 24, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who am I to argue with Mr. Woolfley? lol. I agree with everything he is saying about Starks and Kemo, I just don’t see Hartwig as exceptional.
As for Harings, I agree, he was a great Center, he just doesn’t have the credentials for the Hall.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 24, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it's interesting
I am also certainly no expert. Hartwig’s play did not jump out at me one way or another this year. Unlike “he whose name will not be mentioned” who was visible on almost every play – usually because he was the one falling backwards into big Ben.
I was somewhat surprised by how high Wolf was on him. But I did find that to be an interesting assessment.
You also get the sense that he believes in Kemo but that he drives him crazy. Here’s a guy with all the physcial tools and then some and he just can’t get it together mentally.
by SteelerBuddha on Apr 24, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to tell what happens with Starks. I can see a deal getting done. If the Steelers draft a replacement in round 1, then maybe not, but I think his value is set. If the team feels he is a long term answer at LT, then a deal is very possible. Too many people think he would be unwilling to sign an extension because he’s guaranteed $8+ million this year. That’s not accurate. The security of a 5 or 6 year deal with $20 million in guarantees would be hard for any player to turn down in a sport as unpredictable and violent as football.
Hartwig is awful. Kemo should improve this year, he has the strength and the mean streak, he just needs some consistency. I’d love to see someone take over at RT, either Hills or a 2nd or 3rd round pick, move Colon inside to RG, and have Mack at Center.
Starks, Kemo, Mack, Colon, Hills/draft pick could be a serious upgrade to last year’s line.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we just have fundamentally different ideas about Hartwig.
You are the only person I’ve ever heard refer to him as awful, while I have heard that regarding every single other piece of our line.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think when I watch the tape, I see improvement over Mahan in Hartwig, but that isn’t saying much. Yes, the play of the guys on either side of him has been lacking, but the Center is the leader of the line. He has to be solid for our interior run game to be effective and Hartwig was anything but effective in the run game or the pass game. Perhaps awful is too strong a word, but I don’t think the rest of the line was any worse than he was. In fact, I think most of the problems the line had started with him.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think problems can flow from the outside in and the inside out. Communication had to be a serious issue this year with two guys getting replaced. Kemo looked lost and from all accounts is absolutely clueless, he isn’t very smart. Almost every center in the NFL is going to need help with the bigger NTs (no one, not many twos, can handle ngata), and Hartwig got undersized rookie support on his right. All the while it was clear that the communication between Colon and Stapleton was absolutely miserable, they were terrible at passing guys off. The only thing they could communicate on was when they needed a breather to false-start or hold a guy.
So much of the assigned stack statistic is difficult to calculate. I know Kemo blew assignments and at that point Hartwig is left dealing with a DT and a DE. Is it Kemo’s fault or Hartwig’s? Can’t say without knowing the assignment. Same deal on the right side.
In the run-game the only guy who gets consistent push is Starks. Kemo gets push when he gets his punch in, but he’s clumsy and misses a lot. A center will never be able to push the big 3-4s to the side in the run game, and Stapleton generates little additional leverage to help Hartwig. Lets just not talk about Colon.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we not mention Mahan ever again?
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we not mention Mahan ever again?
Lol! On the CBS boards we call him “He who shall not be named” I just wasn’t sure that would fly over here! Apparently it would! lol.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value at Center
I also wonder if we get good value by picking a center in the first round. I know that Mack is highly regarded, but center seems to be the easiest position to fill in the line. We picked up three HOF centers – none of them in the first round of the draft (although Hartings was a first rounder – just not for us).
I would love to pick up a guard or tackle in the first round. I am not sure that I would want to see us invest in a center – unless he was far and away the best talent left on the board.
by SteelerBuddha on Apr 24, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buddha…there was a time when Guards were considered poor value for the 1st round as well. Interior linemen have long been disrespected when it comes to draft position and overall value, but that trend is changing. You are seeing big contracts going to Guards and Centers now that would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. The Steelers had no problem spending 1st round picks on Guards Alan Faneca and Kendall Simmons in recent years and I don’t see any reason why a Center should be any different.
In my opinion, if you can get an impact, starter quality player in round 1 at any position along your offensive line, then you take that player.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 24, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trend
I do agree with you that we have seen a general trend in terms of giving higher value to the entire line. When left tackles become the highest paid players on a team, it’s hard to argue that the guys playing right next to them are not worth nearly as much.
Still, this draft seems very deep at center and since it’s our deepest position on the team (Hartwig and Stapelton) I struggle a bit taking another center with the first pick. I do agree that you go for the best guy available, and if Mack is clearly that guy in the eyes of our scouts, then you will not hear me complain. But just like I would be surprised with drafting a running back or wide receiver in the first round, I would also be a bit surprised by taking a center.
by SteelerBuddha on Apr 24, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How About......
Draft Mack, let him start at C from day 1. In round 2 draft Fenuki Tupou and put him at RT. Move Colon to G with Kemoeatu and leave Starks at LT.
We have a pretty soft schedule this year, and our two Ravens games are deep in the season. Start the young guys and get them seasoned.
Remember we have 3 OL in the final year of their contract; Hartwig, Colon and Starks. If they do not address the OL this year with young guys, we will either have to start inexperienced guys next year or resign the guys that we presently have.
Hartwig gets mauled by bigger guys (Ngata), he allowed the most sacks of any C and had a huge penalty in the Super Bowl. We need to restock our OL. Mack is probably the best interior lineman in the draft, great place to start.
by imike29 on Apr 23, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
imike…your thinking is sound. I think there may be a better RT prospect available than Tupou at #64. I would personally prefer Troy Kropog, but I think even he might be available in round 3. We have needs at CB and WR as well as the O-line. At some point we need to address the D-line too. I really don’t see us spending both picks on day 1 on the O-line, but I wouldn’t be disappointed if they did.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colon isn’t moving to guard, ever. Lets move on.
The biggest knock against all of the centers this year is they get mauled by bigger centers, and they don’t get any bigger than the boys we play. Citing Hartwig’s stacks is not indicative of his play. Even the best center is going to have a hard time when he has Kemo falling down and failing to pick up blitzes and Stapleton being pushed around.
Hartwig is not nearly as bad as you and manosteel are pretending he is. Guess what? Our line gave up a lot of sacks this year. Colon, Stapleton, Kemo, and Starks all allowed a pretty sizeable amount of sacks. Hartwig, by play, is easily better than Colon, Stapleton, and Kemo, whatever his stats are.
Mind you, I’m not against drafting Mack because Hartwig is very replaceable. On top of that, we aren’t going to be able to get a top tackle and the guards are “eh”. We have a shot at the 1st center, some whatever guards, and the 6th/7th tackle. Makes sense to go for the 1st center to me, but saying that center is more of a need than guard or RT is laughable.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RT is definitely a position of need, but is it worthy of pick #32? Who will be available there? One of the top Tackle prospects isn’t likely to fall to us and there are some solid RT prospects in round 2 and 3. Of course, guys like Caldwell and Luigs would be upgrades at Center and they can be had later on as well.
Part of me would like to see the Steelers address the secondary at #32. If Butler falls, or Sean Smith is there, I could see that pick, too. I just can’t imagine the Steelers passing on Mack if he’s there.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the whole point of my original comment re: hartwig not being the biggest need. Hartwig is not the biggest need, but along the OL he will have the best player available. Like I said, tricky.
Another tricky part is what you mention. Caldwell, Luigs, even Shipley are available as reasonable alternatives later. But the steelers haven’t developed any late-round talent to be anything recently, and the steelers need quality over quantity with this draft. Steelers need OL, DL, CB. The main reason I like OL in the first is 1, we can maybe get the best guy in the draft for a position. The steelers have a roster full of late-round CBs and DLs that are performing at a very high-level. How are our late-round OLs doing?
Colbert believes the CB class is deep, and the OLs are top-heavy (i’ll take him at face value, though he’s a friggin liar).
New stat I’d like to be kept track of: Amount of times opponent runs around Colon and forces Ben into the NT.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood, and good points, to be sure. I think we are only arguing semantics at this point.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BPA
I’m still not sure what we think “BPA” means is the same as what the FO means. Character seems to matter to the Steelers more than what other teams say, and drive or passion. Athleticism not so much unless it is accompanied by the whole “work-out warrior” attitude. Also, how other teams value a player comes into it. If we think we can get a guy in the third round we won’t draft him in the second even though he might be the BPA.
I think the FO presents a real simplistic approach to the draft to fog the other teams. I feel certain that they shift tactics as the draft leans one way or another. This team has drafted too smart in the past to assume they show up with a list of players and tick them off as they are taken.
by 13thieves on Apr 23, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
13thieves…not only do they show up with a list, they show up with an exact list of how they see the first 2 rounds playing out. Their list is flexible, as all lists of this nature should be, but they will have 64 players on a piece of paper to ensure themselves of knowing exactly who they feel comfortable with at both #32 and #64. That list likely looks very little like the one above, but the structure would be similar.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Effort in this post
Rec’d
It's true what they say...Even the NFL's Big Wigs hate the Steelers. On the plus side, I can now tell my future grand kids about Hines Ward and how the NFL made rules because of him. Roger Goodell, you make me sick.
by HighSchoolSteeler on Apr 23, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I got ripped for taking Maclin
with Cincy’s pick. Interesting.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
by PixburghArn on Apr 23, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Cincy has far greater needs at #6 than receiver, but Maclin may not be a stretch as a top 10 pick.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really doesn't matter what Cincy gets
They aren’t going to be any good.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
by PixburghArn on Apr 23, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they’ll follow the browns league and draft a staph infection.
Don't worry about the haters. Haters only hate.
by steelguy99 on Apr 23, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or the Yankees and draft
a herpes epidemic?
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
by PixburghArn on Apr 24, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who would you take?
Okay, based on that list, I count 8 players not on it who are assumed to be long gone by the time the Steelers draft. So let’s then pretend that the first 23 players on this War Board are gone by the time the Steelers select. Who, then, would you take if you were the FO?
by JudeCooper on Apr 23, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Player #24 is Sean Smith and I would have no problem drafting him at #32 if the other 23 were gone. He has position flexibility, the other guys in our group feel he’s a safety, but I think he can play CB. I really like Ebon Britton as well and could see that pick over Smith if the FO feels he’s a better fit.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Terrence Taylor?
Ron Brace gets a 37 and TT isn’t even on the list?
Who knew?
by Concomitandt on Apr 23, 2009 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Roy Miller is in the top half?
I appreciate your work, but you gotta have Terrence Taylor on the list if Roy Miller is there. Miller is not the only guy with fine intangibles.
Who knew?
by Concomitandt on Apr 23, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh, sorry...
I know it’s supposed to be all in fun…
Who knew?
by Concomitandt on Apr 23, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Concomitandt…I should apologize. Terrance Taylor should definitely be on the list. As a matter of fact, I recall having him in my 4th round analysis in the early stages. How he was omitted from the final list I have no idea.
I have no editing control here, but I assure you he will make it back on the master list over on the CBS board.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just tell me where he should be and ill add him
by Blitzburgh on Apr 23, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just checking with the other guys on exact placement and I’ll get back to you. Thanks, blitz.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great debates
Enjoying the analysis here and appreciate the thought that went into this draft list. Obviously no one will ever agree on everytthing. I’d take Brandon Pettigrew ahead of about 28 of the guys ranked ahead of him, Eric Wood ahead of about 20 and Louis Delmas almost as many. Everyone has their favorites. I’d certainly take Maclin but he’s probably not getting out of the top 10 so it’s a moot point. I wouldn’t touch Everette Brown until the second round. There are 15-20 different guys the Steelers could take at No. 32 which makes this draft very hard to figure out. Colbert has pretty well ruled out only QB and RB but I think you could also add any of the top-ranked OLB “tweeners” to the list of those guys we won’t draft in the first round. Hard to see them adding a first-round salary at OLB on top of Harrison’s deal and the next one Woodley signs. The pick at No. 32, or perhaps the top pick traded down 5-10 spots into Round 2, could be very surprising. Colbert’s comment about the OT crop being top heavy is a good hint that they may take Loadholt as their first pick. Delmas is a possibility because he fits every physical and intangible criteria the Steelers have. I doubt they would pass on Pettigrew if he was available. The top pick could even be Brace. With all these extra picks, and with some salary cap limitations in place, don’t be surprised if Colbert is wheeling and dealing his way to about 6-7 picks overall.
by steeler.lifer on Apr 23, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lifer…I agree that there is a good chance we see some trades this weekend since there are not 9 open spaces on this roster. I don’t think Loadholt or Pettigrew are options at #32. Heath Miller is going into the last year of his contract, but I don’t see the team going TE in round one. Loadholt is very poor value at #32. I can’t imagine the Steelers reaching for talent like that. They would only take a Tackle if he were rated in the first round and I don’t see that in Loadholt. There will be too many higher guys on their board, in my opinion.
by manosteel9423 on Apr 23, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I don’t understand what people see in Loadholt.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
by PixburghArn on Apr 24, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what makes it interesting
Everyone will have a diffferent opinion. Actually, I think Loadholt will be taken before the Steelers pick by either Minnesota or Buffalo but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he is our choice. There’s no other RT later in the draft with his physical potential and it’s position of need from both contractual and performance standpoints. As for Pettigrew, he fits the BPA scenario to a T at a position the Steelers have frequently used on a first-round choice in the past and it’s important in our offense to have two, at least one of them being a good blocker. I tend to agree that Miller will be re-signed but it’s far from a sure thing.
by steeler.lifer on Apr 24, 2009 3:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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