BTSC Mailbag- Does Michael Vick Deserve To Be Reinstated To NFL?
by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on May 19, 2009 11:17 AM EDT
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Print[Editors Note:] Good Morning BTSC, I just received a great email from a long time reader and it sparked Blitz & I with an idea. We wanted to introduce a new feature to the site that will hopefully translate into some additional interactivity and better content thanks to the input of our faithful community. Blitzburgh & I want to encourage you to write us with questions, comments, concerns, or complaints so that we can help continue to improve and fine tune Behind the Steel Curtain.
So please email Blitzburgh at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com, or myself at btscmilkshake@gmail.com. We will start including funny, interesting, or thoughtfull emails from time to time and try to work your suggestions and contributions into the site. -DYM- (Frank)
"Is there a way to post a survey/poll on the site? I think that would add some fun and possibly promote more interaction from some of the patrons? I'd like to see what the BSTC crew would return on a Mike Vick poll. I see the responses to Piratefan13's post and know their would be some interest. Just checking, thought you might know. I enjoy your posts. You and some of the others put a lot of time, effort and thought into the forum, I appreciate that. -jharmon64
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I don't think he should..
But I’ve hated him even back to his VTech days. He is simply a thug. He is not even a good quarterback, by conventional definitions.
I dont think he should
But i think he will be reinstated, just because Goodell cares about money, and Vick, his play and his publicity is all worth dollar signs $$$
Goodell also playing God bugs me. Dont like any of his propositions
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 19, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions
I don't get it
Why is it that if I fail a drug test at my work, I get fired. If a NFL player fails a drug test, he gets a slap on the wrist? What makes a NFL employee so different than any other employee? You break the rules, you don’t play. It should be that simple. No double standards, no debate.
job1 != job2
Not all jobs are the same. Many don’t have drug tests, and wouldn’t necessarily fire you if you were high.
I’m not aware of a double standard — can you point me to other NFL players who went to jail for the same offense, and weren’t allowed to play again?
good call, my point exactly
I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!
by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on May 19, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The double standard I was referring too was job to job. Not within the NFL. How many chances does a person deserve? The playing in the NFL should be a privelage, not a right. It just seems some players don’t see it that way.
by OHSteelerfan on May 19, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So you believe if you were caught fighting dawgs you would get two years and jail?
Like his peers were and they have been released. While he sits…
Life is not fair man… and you are not the same as an NFL football player. You may want to ask your employer whay you would be fired…because last time I checked the organization makes the rules…not every job fires employees for a first time drug test failure…some do give slaps on the wrist to imposing drug counseling.. like most of us your job probably isn’t as sweet as being an NFL player….
Funny professional fact
Depends if the offense my effect your job performance. For instance, you can’t lose a medical license for being convicted of solicitation.
There's gotta be a joke...
…about the Cleveland Browns and the Dawg Pound here somewhere.
I’ll leave it to someone funnier than me…
Look Deeper.
What is disturbing to me, more so than the dog killings, is the manner of the killings. Torturing animals is how serial killers get started. What happens if he escalates? Next time is it a woman? A child? What?
I too never thought much of Vick. But what really alerted me was the behavior of his little brother, Marcus. His actions were not those of a young man getting good guidance from a star big brother. They were the actions of a criminal in training. And, it turns out his big brother is a criminal.
This is not an isolated incident. The family has a culture of poor behaviour according to the standards of our society. He didn’t step over the line to get a taste, he lived over the line and thrived there. In the end, he is just a criminal, from a criminal culture (one that would be hard to supress) with athletic ability.
People are saying that he has done his time and he should be reinstated. Yes, he has done his time, but he is still a criminal influence on the sport I love. I say “Hell no!!” he should never be allowed to influence other players or impressionable fans ever again. You see, it is not just about never dog fighting again, it is about his culture changing from a dirtbag with money and athletic ability to a good and moral human being. It is about changing the very fabric of his character. I don’t believe that will happen.
Character is Key
WyoFan…your comment on character hit the nail on the head. There is an issue with Vick that is larger than the dog fighting…it’s his overall character. IMO, the reason why Goodell isn’t so quick to re-instate Vick once his jail time is up is that Vick – on numerous occasions – lied straight to Goodell’s face. My father taught me a long time ago that it’s one thing to do something bad…but it’s another to lie about it after the fact. My worst whippings as a kid were for lying…and I’ve since learned that being an honest individual is one of the best character traits that I can possess. If my word is no good, neither am I.
As it relates to this particular debate, Vick wasn’t truthful in this situation until he was forced to be. He lied and lied and lied some more until his associates fessed up under the threat of additional charges. Absent a DA who wisely knows how to use leverage, Vick might still be lying about this situation to this day. Goodell is smart for making Vick go further before allowing him the priviledge of stepping back on to an NFL field.
Wow...your name must be Roger...
So your the man that decides what a good human being does huh…ok… I will not make excuses for his behavior but I will not compare dog fighting to possibly killing humans. I do realize there are those of you that may not know this….. but people fight dogs in very rural and very urban areas. True it is against the law but it is also overlooked in many cultures..Again I do not think it is right at all, but when you talk about a criminal influence in the sport you love I do take offense…. we all love this game..its sad that you believe that this grown man can influence other grown men to do anything to break the law if so..why not cut him some slack for being influenced by those who actually were fighting the dogs? I think we all know killing dawgs is wrong but to say you need to change the fabric of his character is scary….
Read what I said...
and then look it up. The torture of animals is a very disturbing trait in a human being. Many times it is a precurser to escalation to humans. It is not the dog fighting that is worrisome, it is the manner with which he dispached some of the animals. Again, look it up and you will find that Vick not only participated in the dog fighting, he participated in the torture of dogs.
Where did I say “I” needed to change the fabric of his character? I think my point was that the fabric of his character is that he is a lying criminal. By saying that it is the “fabric of his charicter”, I’m implying that it can’t be changed. Please read more carefully next time.
And, yes I know the difference between a good human being and a bad one. I was tought values, ethics, truth, honesty, hard work and many others, and these are the standards that I use. I’m not even close to perfect, but, I would not associate with a criminal and I certainly would not hire one.
Wow
I live in St. Louis and watch Leonard Little who killed a person and then gotta another dui after…. and he still plays on sundays… I think the fabric of character is not an issue that should be in question….I just dont get why he is worst than any of the other player that screw up
Same poll, different spot...
ESPN has the same poll up on the main page. As of 3:55 pm ET here’s their results:
Yes: 79%
No: 21%
38,000+ votes.
Just a wider scope of votes, thought it would be a nice addition. If you have any strong opinions either way, hit them up too. After BTSC of course!
Ray Lewis is in
That is your precedent! He didn’t knife somebody but he knows who did and he is playing on Sundays. Leonard Little has had duis that cost people their lives and he was given chance after chance. These guys killed man not mans best friend. The crime is awful but very forgotten unless you are a PETA member. We live in a forgiving society – enhance that statement by leaps and bounds for athletes. We don’t care if they take steroids, beat their wives, get drug violations, get in fights and carry unregistered weapons – All they have to do is play well and sometimes ask for forgiveness and we give it. Vick will be playing sooner than later and I truly do not care.
Have you ever seen Mike Tomlin and Omar Epps in the same place at the same time?
by cleveland sucks on May 19, 2009 5:16 PM EDT reply actions
You can't legislate morality
I am not a M. Vick fan at all. In fact, I thought he was an over-rated QB (exceptional athlete obviously) who would have continued to struggle.
With that said, he committed a crime and did his punishment. End of story.
We can pontificate all day long about character and morality, (all of which sounds really nice) but in the end you can’t legislate morality. You certainly have rules, regulations, and laws in society (and organizations like the NFL) that govern one’s behavior and when someones crosses the line, they are punished.
But, please spare me the "changing to a good and moral human being’ or the “changing the very fabric of his character.” Who decides what behavior is “good” and what isn’t from a morality perspective? Who decides what the fabric of ones character should be? Do we add a morality test at the combine, subjectively graded by the ’morality" police?
Character, morality, telling the truth, being accountable and responsible, showing respect, living with integrity etc, etc, etc , etc, are all wonderful pursuits. But they are also uniquely individual paths. No one is perfect. No one is always on the right path in every single area of their life. That’s part of the falibility of being human. Our human journey is wrought with failures, mistakes, bad decisions, and immorality…but it’s through those experiences that hopefully we (meaning all of us) learn, and move forward as individuals who live with more integrity, honor, pride etc.
So, when people break the law, you punish the behavior and they should be adequately punished as determined by a judge, jury, or institution. But you can’t legislate morality…you can’t legislate how people think. Because invariably the people in charge force everyone to think like them…for your own good mind you.
Throughout history that thought process has produced the Crusades, Spainish Inqusition, Communism, Fascisim, Religious Extremists…not good!!
I don’t like M. Vick. But I dislike the idea of some sanctimonious, “morality police” of the NFL determining who plays and who doesn’t even more.
by SteelerMike on May 19, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
rec'ed from me. good take
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on May 19, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually they can
Vick is a representative of the NFL (was). The NFL, all though they don’t do it perfectly very well, does not want to be associated with criminals (See Ray Lewis not being the one to say “I’m going to Disneyland”). If they think a certain player in the league is not going to shed the right light they want on the league they have every single right to cut him from the league (or in this case, not let him back in).
You can legislate morality to an extent. If someone thinks its morally right to run around killing people I think we can step in and say “uhhh no.” He may not like it, but tough poopie (not sure if I can use the S word here).
I’m sure the majority of the league/nation would not be up in arms if they denied Vick the right to ever come back to the league.
I took my fair share of criminology classes in college and I fully believe once a criminal always a criminal. The criminal mind is not something that can be shut off like a light.
by John Stephens on May 19, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Question
So you don’t believe you can learn from a mistake?
There is a difference...
…between a mistake (maybe stealing something) but breaking a dog’s back over your knee is a little different. That is a kind of mind, a chemical imbalance, that can not be fixed by “learning” from it.
by John Stephens on May 19, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I never read up on the specifics...
if that’s one of the things he did, then it proves beyond a doubt that he has absolutely no feelings for others. The kind of mind that enjoys seeing any sentient being in pain, is the kind of mind we should seek to help. We as a society should be dong more to limit the kind of influences that lead to that sort of emotional (dis)development.
It gets worse than that too
I watched a special on it, although I do not remember all of the specifics. They’d break their legs then throw them in the pool. Or add electrical currents to water and throw them in the water. Its really disgusting.
by John Stephens on May 20, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
A few flawed arguments here...
For those stating that you can’t legislate morality, this is not an issue of what is legal in a domestic court of law. This is the NFL, and Goodell has been assigned the task to “legislate” as he sees fit. It seems to me that he’s still pissed that Vick lied multiple times to his face (and the the general public), and it’s going to take some doing before Vick is allowed back to the NFL. Whether or not Vick has paid his debt to society is irrelevent to whether or not he should be playing in the NFL.
For those bringing the likes of Lewis and Little into the argument….I don’t know that it’s the best idea to justify bad behavior by comparing it to worse behavior. Lewis and Little are separate cases that have little to no bearing on Vick and his status as an NFL player.
At any rate, we can piss and moan about Goodell all we want…but he’s still the man in charge, and what he says goes…unfortunately for some.
by Weegie on May 19, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
rec'ed good wise take
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on May 19, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Look.
Michael Vick has now paid his debt to society. People need to move on and let Goodell make his decision. But what bothers me more about what I have read so far is that these victims were dogs. Dogs. Lets take a look at the deaths that occur frequently with people who drive motorized vehicles while intoxicated, A human life should have much more value and concern than dogs. I dont care what you say, this is a societal double standard. Iam a dog owner myself and I love it to death but come on people its just a dog. And antother thing. What’s a thug by your definition. Is Fomer Pesident George W. Bush a thug? Go Steelers!
Who is comparing it to drunk driving?
No one ever said a dog’s life is the same worth as a human’s. I don’t believe that at all, but there are some people who would. Also, obviously, by law a human’s life DOES have more value/concern a dogs. That’s probably the reason Vick got out of jail today and is not in jail for life. (I don’t see the double standard).
A thug in my definition? Probably someone who was caught red-handed breaking the law and denies and denies AND gets a drug charge when he is on trial for a crime. He was saying he was sorry then, but still breaking the law at the same time. Thug. I’m not going to argue politics here, so I will ignore the Bush comment.
by John Stephens on May 20, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Roger Clemens a thug?
Maybe not the best question for an O’s fan, but he lied, lied and continues to lie, despite the fact everyone he was around has said he’s lying (not directly, but through testimony). He admitted his wife took ‘roids from the guy saying he gave Clemens ’roids, proving McNamme had and illegally injected others with ’roids. But Clemens didn’t do it. Just trying to find the line you have to cross to be a “thug”.
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 20, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhhh
Are you putting taking steroids and killing animals on the same level? Those are two monsterously different situations/crimes. Roid use is a crime against yourself, murdering a dog by cracking its back over your knee is a little bit more extreme. I think the line is very, very far from away from Clemens. Clemens is just an a-hole, who ruined baseball along with Bonds and Co.
Comparing Clemens to Vick is like comparing a sinner to the devil.
by John Stephens on May 20, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
No Roids to Dog Murder comparison...
I was just going by your qualifications for being a thug and was curious where the line was to cross. Totally different things, not even close. Based on this quote:
A thug in my definition? Probably someone who was caught red-handed breaking the law and denies and denies AND gets a drug charge when he is on trial for a crime.
Just wanted to see if Clemens fell under the thug category, no comparisons between crimes, just people. Odviously the drug chage part doesn’t fit, but the rest is fairly spot on.
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 20, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Hope you didn’t take the O’s fan comment as a jab or anything. I assumed that having your team play against him all those years, especially if he was cheating, would breed some resentment. I’m a Yankees fan, I despise Clemens, never wanted him the first time, or second, and was justified by the fact his true persona has finally been made public.
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 21, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Try this to get you started
thug /thug/ Show Spelled [thuhg]
–noun
1.a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
2.(sometimes initial capital letter) one of a former group of professional robbers and murderers in India who strangled their victims.
assuming he was in
would you want him to play for us?
not really
BUT, I do kinda want to see how Tomlin would handle a somewhat suspect character on our team, whoever that may be. I personally believe Tomlin could handle the situation but I suppose it might just be best to not risk it.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on May 20, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The Guy Served His Time
I’m willing to give a guy a second chance. He put his time in and now is out. Lets go Vick, become a better citizen and get back in there.
Oh!
Then by WyoFan"s definition George W. Bush is a thug. But lets get out of politics for now. I was watching Mark Schlereth mention yesterday that he thinks Vick could possibly go to the Steelers. Mainly because he thinks Tomlin could provide him the necessary structure for him to succeed. I personally would love the addition and I think the team would also.
Any thoughts?
i mentioned above
that i think itd be interesting to see how tomlin could handle a personality that was a distraction. doubt it’ll ever happen on scale of a michael vick type so long as rooneys are involved with team, but i do think Tomlin would succeed.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on May 22, 2009 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Piece of crap
The guy is a total piece of crap! What I really would love to see is GOD-ell reinstate him, only to have every owner decide to blacklist him and let him find other gainful employment. I’m sure his VA Tech degree (hahahaha) has prepared him to be an accountant or something. All that hard studying will finally be able to payoff!
Is he really going to be worth the PR nightmares that will be sure to accompany him to whatever team is retarded enough to sign him? A great pox on whatever owner that pulls the trigger on that deal! While the Steelers have had a few less then stellar citiczens, I think they do a decent job of showing them the door (see Burress, Plaxico) when the opportunity arises. I pray the Steelers are not even considering talking to this punk. We have done fine without him, and I would rather lose without him, personally.
"Steeler Nation= We are better than you!"
by il_steeler_fan on May 21, 2009 12:56 PM EDT reply actions
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