Palmer is better than Roethlisberger?
I'm sorry, what?
Well well, Sportingnews.com has unleashed its Top 20 Quarterbacks rankings heading into the 2009 season, and its laughable at best.
Heres the Linky.
My comments after the flip
Well that was entertaining.
Peyton ahead of Brady? Not in my book. Peyton had been previously blessed with one of the most talent laden teams (Wayne, Harrison, Clark, etc) and has only one ring to show for it.
Brady, long did a helluva lot without much for talent (Givens, Branch etc dont exactly match up). I may not like him, but Tommy Boy can play, and at his healthiest, is hands down the best QB in the league. Peyton has stats, but Tom has Wins.
Drew Brees at #3 I'd agree with. He seems to be the most talented Quarterback not to win a championship, but I feel the Saints are Superbowl bound withing the next couple of years.
Now the part where I get angry. You cannot tell me Palmer is better than Roethlisberger. He had more offensive weapons at his disposal (Johnson, Housh, Rudi at his brilliant best), yet he has been hampered by a string of injuries, a lack of consistancy in big games/crunchtime games, and a lack of moxie (personally i think hes a bit soft).
Big Ben has wins. Big Ben has 4th quarter comebacks. And, Big Ben has 2 Superbowls, one which he did brilliantly to lead us to the Superbowl then flunked in the big arena (SB XL) and one where he was a MVP calibre player, coming out with the greatest game winning drive in NFL History.
After the Top 5 I dont really care, but i needed to vent : )
Let your feelings be known BTSC
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Rosy Palmer probably still has nightmares about Kimo Von Oelhoffen..
Bwahhahahahahaha
by SteelersFnRule on May 25, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions
+1
Love it
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 25, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
that ad of carson eating the hotdog immediately takes him out of contention
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
BS
That is total trash.
First off Peyton is below roethlisberger IMO. Peyton has a losing postseason record which to me should be the defining point of most QB’s.
Drew Brees IS excellent and the chargers are dumb for letting him leave and he could have actually made some noise in Whales Vagina.
I really do think Brady gets #1.
But please when was the last time Palmer finished a season with good numbers? He had like two good years and now his receivers are washed up/gone and he will have nothing at all.
OK... so I have to ask
If this is true:
First off Peyton is below roethlisberger IMO. Peyton has a losing postseason record which to me should be the defining point of most QB’s.
How can this be?
Drew Brees IS excellent and the chargers are dumb for letting him leave
What has Drew Brees done in post season? Not that I don’t think he is a good QB… but Give Peyton Manning his due. As I recall, we never beat the Patriots to make it into the Super Bowl those years, either…
Brees did get the Saints to the NFC title game in his first season as a Saint
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 31, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But he lost
If I understand Mechem’s point, Peyton is a loser because he has only made it to the Super Bowl once.
I’m just saying, you can’t have it both ways… either only rings count… or they don’t…
BTW, Dan Marino was a great quarterback, too…
Good to see that Steeler fans have no idea what they are talking about.
by KingRichard on May 25, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lol
Dont even start brohamdizzle.
Your famed QB didnt win the super bowl until he was 30+ and despite being excellent during those first 16 games, he has choked big meat all playoffs. His only real big win was the comeback against the Pats which I give him credit for.
Your recent ring was courtesy of the slippery fingers of Chicago who fumbled any opportunity away all game. Manning didnt do anything too amazing with his 1 TD and 1 INT. For cryin out loud you guys hadnt had the ball 3 plays and you were down 7-0 with a INT on your name. Plus you botched an extra point.
Chicago let you have that. Which is all fine.
But anyway ask yourself who has more rings, and then rank your players.
Your famed QB didnt win the super bowl until he was 30+
Who gives a shit? Dan Marino, arguably the best QB ever only made it to one Super Bowl (which just so happened to be his rookie season), does that make him less good? No. Your argument measuring QB’s on Super Bowl appearances and victories is stupid and extremely flawed.
despite being excellent during those first 16 games, he has choked big meat all playoffs.
Do some research before you start spouting crap off man. There’s only one playoff loss you can pin on Peyton. I’ll give you a cookie if you figure it out.
His only real big win was the comeback against the Pats which I give him credit for.
How is this an argument? Besides, what do you constitute as a “big win?” I’m sure it’s a totally subjective measuring tool that you just formulated in your head so you have something to argue.
Your recent ring was courtesy of the slippery fingers of Chicago who fumbled any opportunity away all game.
Says the guy trying to argue that Roethlisberger is somehow better despite posting the worst stats for a QB ever in a Super Bowl. Oh, and let’s not forget, who won his second ring due to a prayer thrown in the waning seconds of the game. Yeah, ok buddy.
Fact is, the COLTS won the game. Whatever happened in the game is irrelevant.
Manning didnt do anything too amazing with his 1 TD and 1 INT.
Refer to above. I can’t believe you are going to try and argue stats. haha wow
For cryin out loud you guys hadnt had the ball 3 plays and you were down 7-0 with a INT on your name. Plus you botched an extra point.
What the hell does this have to do with Peyton?
But anyway ask yourself who has more rings, and then rank your players.
Roflsburger has two rings because of his amazing defense and running game (and a prayer throw). Yet again proving just how ignorant you are.
Dan Marino?
Best QB ever? No. Montana was as still is in my books. 5 championships, and the fact that even as an old bugger he turned a dreadful Kansas City team into a playoff team.
Marino couldnt carry a team. He could just throw a lot of passes
And no, Ben has 2 rings, with the latter coming though ways of driving 80+ yards with some great throws, including the icer.
Flashback to 05 season playoffs. Who couldnt get his team 30 yards after we nearly fumbled the game away? Peyton. All he could do was get his team in a long range field goal, which was missed. Way to go Peyton, thats how you lead a game winning drive.
Great Quarterbacks are made in the championships. When push comes to shove, who can throw their opponent to the ground. A great QB is one who can play average for 59 minutes, but win it in the 60th.
Keep your Peyton, Im more than happy with our Ben.
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 25, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm.
Buddy, you seem to be lost in your own mess of quotes. You claim to say Peyton can only be pinned with one loss. Well, was he not a Colt the other losses? You also argue that your Colts SB game was irrelevant, well if it was, why bring it up? You say that BigBen won it on a prayer? Well that’s irrelevant. What’s relevant is the fact that he won it. Then you turn around and say that Ben only won because of his amazing defense and running game. First of all, thank you, our defense is excellent we know, but then you falter in your statement. Running game? What running game? We had one of the worst rushing attacks behind one of the worst lines in the league. This contradicts your previous statements because that means dear old Peyton only won his SB because his running game with Addai and his passing game with Wayne, Harrison, & Clark.
Point being, you the Colts fan will always love Peyton, we the Steelers will always love BigBen. You look at Lombardis, Ben wins, you can’t deny it. You look at career QB rating, Peyton has it. There are simply too many variables to make this argument.
However, you have to agree Roethlisberger is better than Palmer.
This is Pittsburgh Steeler Troy Polamalu getting knocked around by the Pacific Ocean in Hawaii yesterday...
Minutes later, Troy caught the ocean going over the middle and smacked it right in the mouth. The ocean fumbled, Troy recovered and ran it into the endzone. The ocean never messed with Troy again.
+1
I hate the “you had a defense” excuse
I didnt know defenses threw touchdown passes. I didnt know they make 3rd down completions and run for gains and avoid sacks.
Hmmm
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 26, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Lol……smartass
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 27, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Richard... listen up
Ok, you are right about Ben posting god awful stats in that SBXL. But here is something to consider. He only completed 9 passes. 8 of those were third down conversions. One of which, a 3rd and 27. He also ran one in, and had Hines Ward drop another. He showed he had clutch skills even in his second year.
My point about the Colts SB win is this, your team got down hard early and sucked and Chicago managed to still give it to you.
The pats game is a big win simply because he rose up and overcame an arch nemesis of sorts, and from a defecit. And it lead them to the Super Bowl.
I think Dan Marino would trade every damn stat record for a Super Bowl ring. Its why you play the game. So you measure greatness by how many of those are on your hand.
Oh and Ben had virtually no running game in this last super bowl. No offensive line whatsoever. Worst O-line to win the SB in history. And yet he never throws his line under the bus like your god Peyton did after Joseph Peezwald raped him.
Oh, and let’s not forget, who won his second ring due to a prayer thrown in the waning seconds of the game. Yeah, ok buddy.
What kind of idiot are you? Downplaying the Superbowl 43 winning touchdown on a Steelers site? That was one of the most clutch plays in the history of the NFL! There’s no debate on that. I guess you’re just not used to seeing clutch QB play being a colts fan.
And BTW, yes postseason play and SB wins do define QBs. Nothing else matters.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Please elaborate. You seem so much more informed than the rest of us. Could you enlighten our simple minds, if only a little?
Got a problem with Harrison, why not take it up with him? Oh you know why!
by SoCalSteelerFan on May 25, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Brees better than Big Ben????
this is insane!!! First Brees plays in a dome 8 times at home plus at leat on on the road in Atlanta..no weather problems to deal with which will inflate his numbers…also, what is his playoff record? He had a very talented charger team with LT in his prime, and gates too and they lost to Chad and the Jets…same with Peyton with the dome, 8 home games and at least one road game..this will inflate numbers…I will say this, Brady one and Big ben 2…BB will pass him up very shortly…also, Tommy boy had the cheat going for him too…see what the Giants did to him?
Valid
I agree on the cheater. I hate cheaters and they stank.
Brees didnt have the greatest setup in the world though in San Diego.
LT was on point, but NOBODY at receiver and the defense left much to be desired. It sucks to throw 4 TDs and lose.
When Mike Tomlin goes into work....
he walks by six Lombardi Trophies, not six Most Valuable Quarterback articles from Sporting News.
And Big Ben has helped win two of the Lombardis in three years.
That’s all we need to know about this one.
by Homer J. on May 25, 2009 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Right-o
Oh and your QB got a Co-MVP which is like gay, and the one last year was pretty much the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. With Drew Brees nearly breaking records, and Silverback breaking bones, why did Manning get that MVP…
NFL is too scared to give MVPs to Defensive players
Drew Brees was MVP in my mind. He still nearly broke records without having Colston and Bush for a good portion of the season. He still managed to bail out the NO defense with an 8-8 record (mite have been 9-7, cant remember)
Without Brees, that team would be a bottom feeder.
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 26, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
That to me was a tough 8-8 team and its a shame they have virtually no defense. Brees was the only thing that made that team even semi-useful.
And I think if Silverback had just a few more sacks and maybe another TD or something he could have gotten it. I think it was almost a near miss on DPoY and Ware was at his tail.
I also think we should give out the MVP at the end of the season. There should be a season long MVP in addition to the SB MVP. Because if you ask me, Manning didnt look like the MVP after the Chargers won that game. Simple as that.
+1 homer j.
this ends the argument in my mind….it is the perfect example of how I feel about ben
I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!
by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on May 25, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
LMAO!
Carson Palmer
TD-INT: 107-67
15, 630 Career Passing Yards
173 Career Rushing Yards
2 Career Rushing TD’s
88.9 Career Passer Rating
2005 FedEx Air Player of the Year
2X Pro Bowl Selection (2005,2006)
2006 Pro Bowl MVP (Wow)
Palmer has played in one career playoff game (against the Steelers) where he completed one pass for 66 yards for a 118.7 passer rating before being knocked out of the game with a torn ACL (thanks Kimo).
Both QB’s regular season high for TD’s is 32.
Both QB’s have been starting since 2004, though Palmer was drafted #1 overall in 2003.
Ben has played in 72 regular season games while Carson has played in 65 regular season games.
Ben Roethlisberger
TD-INT: Regular Season:101-69 Playoffs: 15-12
14, 974 Regular Season Passing Yards Playoffs: 2,239
616 Regular Season Rushing Yards Playoffs: 125
10 Regular Season Rushing TD’s Playoffs: 2
89.4 Regular Season Passer Rating Playoffs: 87.2
2004 NFL Rookie of the Year
Most Wins in a Season, Rookie QB — 14 (2004) (Including Playoffs)
Highest Passer Rating, Rookie Season — 98.1 (2004)
Highest Completion Percentage, Rookie Season — 66.4% (2004)
1 Pro Bowl Selection (2007)
Most Regular Season wins as a starting quarterback in first five NFL seasons (51)
Youngest starting QB ever to win Super Bowl
2X SUPER BOWL CHAMPION
Most Importantly….
Ben’s Career W-L Record: (59-22) (Including an 8-2 Playoff Record) Did I mention 2 Super Bowl Rings?
Carson’s Career W-L Record: (32-34) (Including an 0-1 Playoff Record)
Obviously, Ben has played on some better overall teams than Carson. One could surely argue Palmer has had better receivers to work with. But no elite QB wins by himself. Even Manning and Brady have had good defenses (not 2008 Steeler good) in the past and offensive lines far more talented than what Ben has had to this point. I don’t see why Ben should be penalized for playing on a team with traditionally good defense. Besides, it wasn’t the Steelers D that drove them down the field 80 yards for the winning TD in the Super Bowl. But seriously. Now I’d like to hear a Cincinnati fan make the argument that Palmer is better than Big Ben. LOL.
Source: Wikipedia
boys....
lmao at these arguments, thank you :)
Memorial Day entertainment.
Bottom line: I could be a great QB if I had an O-line like Brady.
He has a freaking day and a half to throw….
Ben, in my mind is #3 behind Brady and Manning though (in that order too).
Really.
And, as everyone beat to death above: it WAS Ben, along with some great receivers who won the SB in the greatest, make me rock back and forth biting fingernails, 2 minute hustle ever.
But hey, who wants to watch a boring SB? Not me, as long as my team has more points at the end :)
You guys are hard core over here at BTSC. smh
Steelergurl
No kidding
I dont mess around.. I stick up for how I truly feel. I cant justifiably allow some friggin Cults fan to come in and slip a comment on these boards and just let him do it without a fight.
I wanna see some respectful debate.
Same goes for me
Im all for debating opinions respectfully, but he crossed the line by throwing around immature names and pathetic arguments
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 26, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Ones with at least an IQ of 60
You so far are the most intelligent one I have found. Which is like finding the smartest kid on the short bus. :D
Boring SB
I’d prefer to see the Steelers win 24 to 7 but not as much as 35 to 3. Though it would be hard to choose between a SB win at that score and a beatdown of the rat brids at that score,
by steelerstyle on May 29, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It's all opinion
No one is ever going to agree on this kind of thing.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
Very true, but when people start name calling and completly disregard a fan bases football knowledge and opinion like the guy did above, well thats when it gets personal, and arguments happen
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 25, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Logical
They also rate no Steeler OL player in the top 20. That seems logical by me.
by steelerstyle on May 29, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
No QB suits the Steelers better than Ben
Name another QB who could take the physical pounding that Ben has? You can’t. There is none. Name another QB who can keep plays alive, usually by having to evade or pull away from the grasp of a defensive player, and make big plays down the field? No one to the extent Ben does. How many active QBs can produce a late-game TD drive when you need it? Maybe only Manning. No one can do all of what Ben does on a regular basis. Eli Manning did it once in the Giants’ SB win over New England and everyone went gaga over both his determination to keep the play alive and Tyree’s catch. Ben does that every game. Name another QB who makes an open field tackle on a DB on his way to a 99-yard fumble recovery for a playoff-winning TD? There might be a few, but not Brady or Manning. They might be better quarterbacks but they’re not better football players. Ben simply doesn’t put up good enough numbers to be ranked above Brady, Manning and probably Brees. But I doubt any of those guys would have led the Steelers to a SB win last year. None of them could have made a positive play out of that first-and-20 Chinese fire drill courtesy of the offensive line that started the game-winning drive. They either get sacked or throw the ball away.
For the Steelers, there is no better QB than Ben and that’s really all that matters.
by steeler.lifer on May 25, 2009 11:47 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
You nailed it
“They might be better Quarterbacks, but they’re not better football players.”
Sent a chill down my spine brother. Ben is the only QB of this group qualified to play MLB, SS, QB, and FB. He has all around game sense.
You forgot punter.
This is Pittsburgh Steeler Troy Polamalu getting knocked around by the Pacific Ocean in Hawaii yesterday...
Minutes later, Troy caught the ocean going over the middle and smacked it right in the mouth. The ocean fumbled, Troy recovered and ran it into the endzone. The ocean never messed with Troy again.
Rec'd Steeler.Lifer
Big Ben is a perfect fit for the Steelers and absolutely represents how Steeler Football should be played.
No Excuses.
No Finger Pointing.
No Giving Up.
No Mercy.
No one plays the position like Ben. Period.
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 26, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Amen.
I wouldn’t trade Ben for anyone….but with the beard. (kidding, really)
Steelergurl
by Steelergurl on May 26, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
When you look at a pure QB to QB comparison
Take away the teams, o-line, receivers, Ben’s SB rings, everything, and just look at Carson and Ben by themselves. Then take the things that make a good QB and compare them.
Arm strength and ability to make throws- Assuming that you have a Carson with a healthy elbow, this one has to go to Carson. Not to say Ben has a weak arm, Carson’s just got a a better one.
Size (ability to see over the line)- Push, both are tall QB’s
Decision making- This ones tough to call for me. Early on in his career, this was not Ben’s strong suit. He has definitely improved it over the years. If you want to look over the whole career of each QB, I would give it to Carson. But in terms of today, I would call it a push.
Leadership- you have to look at performance on the field for this one, and that one has to go to Ben. Carson has good leadership qualities, but on the field track record definitely favors Ben, though I would say it is close.
Work ethic- Both have good work ethic, but I would give the edge to Carson here. After he tore his knee up, he did not even miss a game. I don’t really think anyone expected him to be back for the start of the season.
Playmaking ability- Carson has better playmaking ability in the pocket, Ben is much better at extending plays outside the pocket. I will give a slight edge to Ben here, though I think this one comes down to want you are looking for in a QB.
Looking at those, I would say they are pretty close to even.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
On your criteria
Arm Strength-I agree Palmer wins, he throws a beautiful ball
Size – I think to call this is a push isn’t accurate. They may both see over the line well, but Ben uses his size to his advantage. He is seldom brought down by one man and can make plays happen on scrambles across the line. I’d say this one goes to Ben.
Decision Making – I’ll give you the push.
Leadership – I agree, Ben wins it.
Work Ethic – Really? Palmer worked his butt off to get back in and play after his knee got blown up and that’s admirable. However, I might remind you that Ben lost a fight with a car, had his appendix out and played a few short weeks after. This year he had a separated shoulder half the year. At best I’ll give you the push.
Playmaking – This is Ben’s strong suit and he’s a clear winner in my book.
Totals:
Ben – 3
Tie – 2
Carson – 1
by Chicago Steeler on May 26, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Heres my thing on the work ethic point- yes he did come back from the motorcycle incident and appendix removal, but the motorcycle incident reflects poorly on Ben’s dedication off the field to me.
As an NFL player, keep yourself healthy and taking care of your body is VITAL. If are going to endanger your body and get on the fastest production motorcycle available, put on a freaking helmet. I mean you get paid to do it for a living, it should not be that hard. Now he has obviously learned from that mistake and seems a lot more focused now, but Ben’s was more at fault for his own injury than Carson was for his knee. I admit they are close on this one, I would still give the edge to Carson though.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
You were judging on work ethic, not stupidity. Ben riding without a helmet was stupid, plain and simple. But it doesn’t affect how hard he worked to come back from that + an appendectomy. And there’s this year to consider fighting through a separated shoulder and still taking 47 sacks.
by Chicago Steeler on May 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
If we throw the bike accident in, then I would swing decision making back over to Carson lol
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
by Bengals FTW on May 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
And if you want to look at the stats since they both came back from the injuries the same year, Carson had a better year in terms of individual performance.
Carson-
4,035 yards, 28 td’s, 13 int’s
Ben-
3,301 yards, 17 td’s, 15 ints
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
by Bengals FTW on May 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but that was 06
Again it was a totally different set of injuries.
Palmer had his at the end of the 04 season, whereas Ben had his June 12 which is just 2 months before preseason.
Palmer just blew out a knee. Ben almost died.
And then Ben, soon as he looks better, needs an organ removed.
Add in the week 5 Boof in Atlanta (still waiting for the flag/fine) and he just never had a good straight start to the season.
I may be wrong, possibly out of line...
But neither of you are arguing about work ethic. This discussion is about the ability to bounce back from injury, toughness, perseverence (spelling, I don’t think I’m close). Work ethic, I thought, for a QB is putting the time into the film room, getting reps with your offense, and your ability to absorb the info you get from each. Not getting back to the field after injury. You both make good arguements for each side, but none of them is work ethic, persay.
Love the debate though, just semantics really on my part.
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 27, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
true enough
I was trying to play by the rules set forth in the original comment that dealt with Palmer’s recovery from injury.
by Chicago Steeler on May 27, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No prob at all man...
I was serious when I said it was a damn good debate. I see where you’re coming from though. It was as written. You both had some good points too, I was hoping my butting in wouldn’t end the discussion.
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 27, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I kinda think its silliness
to grade a QB without considering the team he’s on…
I mean, I get all your points, and I agree with Chicago Steeler below on who wins and how…
BUT, realistically, a QB is the sum of all the parts…
I mean, based on this criteria, you will tell me that Stafford or Sanchez will be outstanding QBs when we know that poor Stafford probably doesn’t stand a chance at least this upcoming season…and Sanchez, well, better…but…..
Bottom line…Ben’s a great QB. He’s a player. He does whatever he needs to do for the team.
it ain’t pretty, but it’s effective.
And dont take this to say Carson sucks, he doesn’t…he’s ok. Ben’s just better.
Steelergurl
Yes, the team a QB is on can affect their performance on the field. And how you rate QB’s is up to you. I just personally feel that to compare two QB’s, you have to remove some of the factors from the team they are on. It’s the whole Trent Dilfer vs. Dan Marino thing for me. Trent Dilfer has a SB ring. Marino does not. Are you going to tell me that Trent Dilfer is a better QB because he was on a team that won the SB? Eli Manning has won a SB and had more success with the Giants than Carson, but I would not even consider picking Eli over Carson.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
Subjective
Obviously all of these QB comparisons are highly subjective and all the stat comparisons won’t objectify the comparisons.
To me, the most important issue about QB’s, and the point was made above and I’ve made this point before is, who is the best QB for your particular team!! Not who is necessarily the best QB.
Clearly, positively, there is no question, none whatsoever, that Ben is the best QB for us. He epitomizes what it means to be a Steeler. It is the perfect fit…Big Ben…Pittsbugh Steelers QB.
My second favorite QB is Drew Brees. I really like everything about that guy. He just seems to have it all. But…a big but… there is no way he would as great a fit to be our QB. No way we win last SB with Brees, or any other qb for that matter, as our starting QB.
So, we can have all the QB comparisons you like, And by Bengals FTW comparisons, which I think is pretty silly, buy hey he’s entitled…it looks like he would choose Palmer over Ben. Fine by me. Just fine.
I will not deny that Ben is the best QB for the Steelers. He clearly fits in with the team very well.
And I would not choose Carson over Ben hands down. It would depend on what kind of QB I need. If I knew that I could put a good offensive line in front of my QB every year and not give up a lot of sacks, yes I would choose Carson. If I did not know I could do that every year, I would choose Ben.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
Bengals FTW
I understand your Oline sceanario determining if you pick Ben or Carson.
But, if I ask you, straight up, you have to pick one or the other to start a team…who do you pick?
I’m not asking a situational question, with if’s, and’s or but’s…just a simple question… with a Ben or Carson answer.
I pick Ben. Everytime.
true
In fact I’d be curious to see how good Ben’d be with a great o-line and better than terrible offensive coordinator. We see his particular set of skills because they’re necessary in this offense. Granted you can argue this with Carson that we don’t know how he’d do in the steelers offense. But his skill set certainly doesn’t seem to translate to it.
by Chicago Steeler on May 27, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben vs. Carson
I think on paper Ben and Carson are close – but Football isn’t played on paper.
Football also (contrary to popular opinion these days) isn’t played in fantasy football leagues. It doesn’t matter how many points your starting QB get each week. It tells you absolutely zero about them as a football player.
Football is a team sport and there are too many confounding factors to truly know if one player is better than another/ This comparison is especially difficult when trying to compare a player on a bad team in comparison to a player on a good team.
We will never know how well Palmer would have done as QB of the Steelers nor how well Ben would have done as QB of Bengals. For all of our conjecture there is just now way to make that comparison.
Having said that, the best we can do is ask – what has a player done in the context of their team.
On that level I think you can read Carson Palmers story on two levels. An optimist can say that Palmer took a team that had not had a winning season in 14 years and took them to the playoffs in his second year, before suffering an injury that may have kept him from taking them further.

A pessimist would say that Palmer took over a team which had gone 8-8 with Jon Kitna in 2003 and only once lead them to a record better then 8-8. I tend to think the truth is somewhere in between. Palmer is better then Jon Kitna, on the other hand, for many reasons (team culture, injury, etc) Palmer inherited a mediocre team on the rise and never really took them beyond being mediocre. I know that might sound a bit harsh to Bengals fans, but I honestly have yet to see proof to the contrary.
In contrast Big Ben’s story is all about transforming a franchise. Granted Ben took over a solid franchise, but it was a franchise with some serious recent struggles. In the previous 6 years – prior to Ben the Steelers had 3 winning seasons and three losing seasons. Even in their winning seasons they had suffered heartbreaking losses in the playoffs. It is fair to say that many of those losses were at least partly a result of poor QB play during the big game.
In 2003 the year prior to Ben’s arrival, the Steelers were 6-10 under Tommy Maddox – a QB that had some fans in Pittsburgh excited due to his impressive passing stats.

When Maddox went down with injury in the second game of the season – the Steelers had barely beaten a weak Raiders team and were down 20-0 to a decent Ravens team. With rookie Ben Roethlisberger at the helm they would win out the rest of their games – until being overwhelmed in the AFC championship game by a talented Patriots team that may or may not have been stealing their signals.
While the national media called Ben a game manager and laid the success of the team on Pittsburgh’s running game, there was no doubt amongst most (except the most dense) in Pittsburgh that Roethlisberger was responsible for the Steelers success. Sometimes it seemed that Ben single handedly willed the Steelers to victory in a close game. In his first year alone 5 or his 14 victories involved 4th quarter comebacks.

To Steelers fans long accustomed to QB’s who managed a run first offense but fell apart when asked to do too much, it was clear that Ben was taking the team to another level.
If there was any doubt that Ben was leading the team in a new direction it was eliminated during an improbable 4 game road trip in 2005. The national media which was every much as obsessed with fantasy football as the common fan, looked at the at 2004 and 2005 season and came up with the following story line. The Steelers were a run first team with a bruising defense. Ben was a promising young QB, but he worked best as a game manager. The interesting thing is that it seems that the Steelers opponents bought this story as well.
In three consecutive road games Ben put up gaudy numbers and buried the opposition early. Neither the Bengals nor the Broncos ever stood a chance. The Colts shouldn’t have either, but a terrible call overturning a Poluamulu interception and an inexplicable goal line fumble by Jerome Bettis put Ben back on the stage.

As Nick Harper raced towards the endzone and what would have undoubtedly been the single most heartbreaking loss in the history of the Steelers franchise, Big Ben the QB became Big Ben the football player and quite literally single handedly won the game.

The Steelers would go on to win the Super Bowl with Ben playing one the worst games of his career. He threw two interceptions – one of them leading directly to Seahawks only TD. The biggest pass of the game was thrown by one of his receivers. Ben led his team to the biggest stage and then disappeared. The critics were back in full-force. In the mind of the public Ben was once again an decent QB on a good team.

Never mind the fact that Ben was the youngest QB to ever win a superbowl. Never mind the fact that there was no way the Steelers would have gotten there without him. Never mind the fact that Ben’s mistakes came early in the game and that his team won. The Super Bowl shaped public perception of Ben – but it shaped it wrong.
To some people the 2006 season proved that Ben’s start was a fluke. To many Steelers fans it proved that not only was Ben great but that he was tough as hell. Two months after a life threatening accident and appendectomy, Ben played football.

He struggled and the team struggled. The team would lose 6 of the first 7 games with Ben under center. That’s two more losses then Ben had in his first two seasons combined. While some saw this as a sign of Ben’s weakness – I think it was actually a sign of his value to the team. With Ben getting healthier the team went on to win 6 of the last 8.
The next year – with a new coach and new offensive coordinator Ben took his team to the playoffs again. Once there the Steelers were stunned by the Jaguars. Looking at the stat line it’s easy to blame the game on Ben. He threw for three interceptions in the first half. But the reality was so much more complex. The steelers had NO running game. Willie Parker was on the sidelines in a case. Najeh "Dookie" Davenport – managed a stunning 1.6 yards per touch.
Ben had no choice but to drop back and face a furious pass rush. He was sacked 6 times. He was hit many more. And yet he mounted one of the great 4th quarter comebacks of his career, leading his team to 19 points in the quarter. In the end it was some egregious interior holding and a slow footed back up safety that cost Ben his great comeback. One can’t help but wonder what would have happened if Ben was one the field in place of Tyrone Carter. You just get the sense that he would not have allowed it.

I won’t recap the 2008 season, except to say that Ben played suffered a tough shoulder injury in game one

, got sacked 46 times, got hit about 200 times, played the toughest schedule in the league.

He suffered a brutal concussion in his last game….

And through it all – of the 14 games the Steelers won 7 featured 4th Quarter comebacks or game winning drives – including what will go down as one of the greatest drives in superbowl history capped by one of the greatest plays in superbowl history. What’s more, there is no doubt that these drives could have been accomplished by any QB that ever played for the Steelers and very few who ever played the game period.

While some still complain about Ben’s presence in the pocket, his descion making, his tendency to hold on the ball too long, his intelligence, his penchant for women with Big hair, his cockiness or the size of his chin. There is no one who can make an argument about his ability to win football games – infact his ability to almost will his team to victory in close games.
Remind me again when somebody has said the same about Carson Palmer, or Drew Brees, or Jay Cutler, or any of the other media darlings out there that put up flashy numbers, and get nominated for the pro-bowl?
I will give Brady his due. He deserves it. He is a great QB. I will give Peyton the same honor.
But like so many here in Pittsburgh, it’s hard to argue with what we have seen Ben do on the field. You won’t see it on the stat line. You won’t see it at the pro-bowl. You won’t see it in your fantasy football league, or read about it in sports columns. He doesn’t make good commercials and you are more likely to see pictures of him chugging beer with some trashy busty local girl then hanging out with TV celebrities or Giselle.

But the kid wins football games. Pretty, ugly, scary and beautiful. He makes his team better – by winning games that other QBs could not win. I am not sure what stat I can show you to convince you. The truth is that I don’t care. Despite the long diatribe, I actually prefer that all of you out there think that Ben is a mediocre QB on a good team. I would rather they keep giving Ken Anderson trips to the pro-bowl because he puts up big stats. The bottom line is that it makes Ben angry and unlike most QBs he seems to play better angry.
And when he plays well the Steelers win Super Bowls.

by SteelerBuddha on May 27, 2009 4:12 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Dayam Buddha
You outdid yourself there lol this should be its own post!
Bleeding Black and Gold since 1989 baby, Blitzburgh is back, time for a repeat!
by Michael Hewitt on May 27, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This needs to be moved to the main page.
Wow, great read.
Wow
That’s incredible work, Buddha. Well played sir.
by Chicago Steeler on May 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT reply actions
thank you
I don’t know – I guess this conversation just gets me going. People really don’t respect Ben.
My sense is that most of these people are playing fantasy football. When they don’t see 4000 yard seasons, 40 plus TD’s 70% completion percentage etc., etc. they assume that Ben is not Elite. My guess is that most of these people haven’t seen a full game he’s played. Serious Steeler fans have watched almost every game. We have a very different sense of the man.
His stats may not be impressive, but as Kevin Colbert said this morning when talking about AQ Shipley
“but once we figure out a way to measure a heart, then we’ll be on to something.”
Oh – and just to recap from my previous comments on the topic:
Palmer is 30. He’s started 65 games. He has one winning season. His playoff record is 0-1.
Ben just turned 27. He’s started 71 regular season games He’s never had a losing season. His playoff record is 8-2. He has 2 rings.
by SteelerBuddha on May 27, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Great job Buddha
All I would add as far as Ben…The LEGEND continues to grow!!
That girl under Ben's right arm...
…ummmm, WTF? Girl to his left is smokin hot though.
he's done pretty well
Sure he hasnt had Jizzelle Panties a’ bunchin, but Natalie Gulbis, Missy Peregrym, and some random Burgh chicks aint a bad resume.
Not bad
A girl I know bumped into Ben in Pittsburgh, she’s not into sports at all so when he approached her and her friends, she treated him like anyone else. What cracked me up was that she told me she didn’t like him because he acted like it would be impossible for one of them to NOT go home with him. I’m not gonna lie, if I were Ben I’d be a total man whore.
by PolamalumightbeGod on May 28, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
They ALL act like that
meaning the players and thinking you will go home with them
There are groupies who will, there are “baller-wife” wannabes who sometimes will…
and then there are sports junkies, like me, who never will…
They know the difference…and treat each accordingly.Don’t believe me?
Ask Kerry Rhodes.
(PLEASE – NO hate mail, I do not condone any sort of rape or anything like that “No means NO” but as women, I really hate stupidity…and if you didn’t know why you left Manhattan to go the hour it takes to get to Morristown, NJ with a Jet and his friend in the middle of the night on a weekend, then you are WACK!! Be smart ladies!!)
Steelergurl
Of course the all act like that
Hold on, there is NO athlete that could bring you home? I mean I know it’s none of my business, but all I can say is that if Maria Sherapova started hitting on ME at a bar, we’d both be out the door in ten seconds flat
by PolamalumightbeGod on May 28, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope...
Not to sound like a prude or anything…
But I’m not meeting anyone in a bar and taking them home like that…hellz no.
I loves me some Hines Ward…and Larry Foote for that matter…
But even if I met either of them out, I am NOT going home with them, not that night.
I don’t even know those dudes…I won’t go home with someone I don’t know…
personal safety oath
More women (and men) should really have one, the oath that is.
Plus, the whole athlete thing…ugh.
You know it’s just trouble.
I like to stay out of trouble as much as possible.
I know..I know…I’m boring…sigh
Steelergurl
Nothing wrong with that
In fact, being that I know I’ll be one of those guys that has like, 6 daughters (punishment from God for some of the things I’ve done), I hope they all end up like you.
by PolamalumightbeGod on May 29, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Little Steelergurls everywhere
Taking over the world, 100 yards at a time.
I like that idea…
Maybe we’ll have a “Steelergurl” president in my lifetime lol
Steelergurl
Oh LAWD
hey now, remember there are other girls @ BTSC please!
You don’t hear us talking about all those smokin’ hot players do you…
oh…wait….
never mind.
kthxbai.
Steelergurl
by Steelergurl on May 28, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
the chick ben was married to in Talladega Nights was smokin…Flacco’s staying away from those yucky girls and spending his evenings watching game films like his parents asked.
lmao re: flacco and film
He’s going to grow into a good QB I think….but not before Deebo and Woodley sack him a few more times :)
Steelergurl
I thought he was staying home with his “heterosexual” life partner Ernie to look at their stamp collection together.
by Chicago Steeler on May 29, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Joe will be okay. We’ll see. I’m more interested to see if he breaks the world record for eyebrow length- 6 inches. Beebo or whatever he’s called is due to get into trouble somewhere somehow. I’m predicting illegal cat juggling.
That's SIR Deebo to you Mr. Raven
I think you should challenge Joey to the eyebrow growing – kind of like the hockey beard thing.
Do it.
Steelergurl
I see king dick has yet to come back and take his medicine
what a POS. I’m gonna hammer that joker every time he shows his avatar here. Moron.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Ben vs. "Place Name Here"
I love these arguments and comparisons about individual players in a team sport. I agree with Buddha when he says that, “Football is a team sport and there are too many confounding factors to truly know if one player is better than another.” But I will say this if we truly want to compare I would ask what would happen if we switched QBs? How would another QB perform behind our line? How would Ben perform behind the Colt’s line with the offensive weapons they have?
A lot of the national media love to point out that Ben benefits from our D but rarely do they point out what advantages other QBs have. Even more telling is when they ignore the disadvantages that a QB works with. When Ben doesn’t have a stout o-line or an exceptional running game or the lack of a consistent vertical threat. These factors never get mentioned. And the media loves to point out Ben’s performance in the 2005 SB but they fail to mention his play in the playoffs which got us to the dance.
Bottom line to me is that these writers can’t truly appreciate what Ben does because they see his stat lines or they catch him here and there. As fans we watch every snap and we see all the attributes and witness the intangibles when they come into play. We’ve seen him work his magic time and time again.
I would love to see Peyton, Palmer, Eli, Brees, Brady or any QB that consistently gets rated above Ben behind our line of the last two years and see how they perform. Personally I think it would be a disaster.
Carson is to Ben as Anderson was to Bradshaw
The Bengals have generally been a finesse and technical team while the Steelers have been a hard rock smash mouth team. Both of our QBs still fit that mold today IMO. Each of these QBs fit their teams just as Anderson and Bradshaw did. The Bengals are, for the first time in a long time actually rebuilding their team in a more smash mouth manner and the Steelers are becoming more technical. You couldn’t go wrong with either Carson or Ben if you were starting a team.
I, of course, am a Bengals fan – win or lose. As far as I am concerned if you ain’t loyal you ain’t shit. hat being said I love “hating” the Steelers but anyone with any class at all has to admire them. You are what we want to be. In fact the Steelers are a team every NFL team wants to be. There is a time to be humble. This is that time for the Bengals and their fans. You Steeler fans can talk all of the smack you want as your team’s performance has earned that for you. I have take it and eat it from you guys until we win, but not Browns or Ravens fans. OK maybe a bit from Ravens fans but the Browns fans need to shut the hell up.
I will say this – don’t look past the Bengals this year. You are the better team right now but the margin isn’t as great as the last few meeting indicate. Frankly I expect a split this year and, if things go right, we could be genuine contenders if not this year, though it isn’t out of the question, then next year. It is a long shot but with the schedule and the state of affairs right now no other division has the chance of having a div champ and 2 WCs in the playoffs. Now, tell me, rivals or not, wouldn’t that be cool? I hate you guys – but I love you too. Does that make sense? Consider this though. Both your QB and SB winning WR are products of Ohio.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
Good points
And the bengals do scare me a touch this year. I think they could definitely steal a game versus the Steelers. I don’t think they’ll make playoffs, but I think 8-8 would be reasonable.
by Chicago Steeler on May 29, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Doubt it
I dont see them doing even that.
Palmer hasnt played consistently well the last couple years, Houshamadilla is gone, Ochocinco is retarded and no good anymore.
There is virtually no defense to speak of, and the O-line is pedestrian.
The run game is a haphazard hodgepodge of castoffs much akin to a Reality series reunion show.
mmm...
The defense actually posted a decent year last year and as long as Glass-Jaw comes back as strong as he started last year that should give them a boost.
by Chicago Steeler on May 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Cincy's D...
12th in the league last year. So I’ve heard. 21st against the run, 15th against the pass (NFL.com)
by NYSteelersFan4 on May 29, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I dont quite get that one
i think that 12 doesnt feel quite right.
15th and 21’st makes bottom half of the league though in my book.
I can see your point in terms of overall performance
but if it does happen I don’t see it being those reasons.
I don’t see why people are under this idea that Carson has some horrible year in ‘07. Over 4000 yards, 26 tds and +6 td vs int. Threw a few to many int’s but could have a hell of a lot worse.
How can you say there is no defense to speak of? Yes they had a crappy year overall last year and the 12 ranking at the end of the year was helped by some weak opponents, but they did improve and have added a lot during free agency and the draft.
The running game I can agree with, Benson is going to have to prove himself and someone will have to step up to the primary backup role, but Benson was the #4 overall pick.
The o-line will be improved at least, you cannot do much worse than last year. Levi’s gone, Ghiachac is gone, and Smith is definitely a good fit at RT.
The one thing that has not been improved if you ask me is the OC Bratkowski. His play calling needs to be stellar or that will be our downfall.
It's still a good season if we go 2-14 and beat the Steelers twice.
Mechem
I am willing to bet you $100 that the Steelers don’t feel the same way you do. I hope I lose the $100 because if they do feel as you do we will beat you. Carson’s first bad year was last year – he only played 4 games and in the first 4 games when he played TJ and Chad were both injured. They couldn’t play to their potential, Carson had to hold the ball too long and the Oline broke down and Carson and our season went down. Our D was pretty good for Zimmer’s first year and it will be better this year – maybe not quite on par with Pittsburg or Baltimore yet – but it is getting there. I think our O line will be on par with our division – except maybe Cleveland and that is the only part of their team that shines. Benson has never had a real chance to perform and nobody knows how good he could be behind an improved Oline.
Hey I came here and posted respectfully and all you did in response was spout nonsense. Blind siding a guy when he isn’t looking and then calling him glass jaw! If TJ did the same thing to Troy all of you guys would see it differently. We lost two of out top players in recent years on plays from Steelers players on at least questionable hits. There has been a lot of debate about both plays. Carson and Rivers handled their injuries with class. Let me ask you – if one of our guys returns the favor and busts up Ward would you guys be OK with it? Believe me if the opportunity presents itself he is going to get some payback – big time. No it wasn’t an illegal hit – neither of them were. They were just classless – particularly Ward’s hit on Rivers. Wards intent was to injure Rivers IMO. Kimo may have been blocked into Carson – questionable but he gets a pass as far as I am concerned.. If everyone played like that all of the good players would be on crutches. So how is it going to be? Good hard nosed football or head hunting? The guy who takes out Ward will be a hero here in Cincy. Ward took his shot and I promise you that between the Ravens and the Bengals he had better be as tough as he acts because, sadly, he is a marked man. He is a tough player and a very good WR and if he goes down because of this meaningless and unnecessary hit what good is he to your team? Every guy who sucker punches someone feels good about it – until the other guy gets up.
I gave you guys and your team their props. I will ask the other posters here – does this guy reflect the level of class I can expect when I come here? If so let me know as I am interested in reading posts from people who are knowledgeable and can give an opinion in a civil manner. If I am in the wrong place – just let me know. I want to exchange with fans here who are as classy as the team you have. You guys are on top and humility isn’t a bad thing. Remember pride comes before a fall. Just because we root for different teams does not mean we can’t discuss the rivalry and our respective teams civilly.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
Hmm...
Well, I was the one who called him Glass-Jaw but was refering to him strengthening your defense so take what you will from that. You’ll hear a few people on here talking about the defense on your side being improved and decent. The offense we’ll see on how Palmer is with his elbow and how you handle the loss of TJ who was one hell of a great receiver and more dangerous against the Steelers than Chad’s ever been.
I disagree with your assumption that Ward’s hit was dirty or cheap. He blocked a guy who was trying to make a tackle. And he blocked him hard. And I don’t know about every steelers fan, but I for one if you hit Ward or Troy that hard, I’d salute the hit. I love great hits. I love great downfield blocking. It’s part of why I enjoy watching the Steelers. Hines takes a lot of ridiculous hits. You’ve got to love the guy for the fact that he comes up smiling everytime (or hate him in your case). He’s a receiver who is never afraid of the safety coming.
As to Benson he did have some shots behind a decent o-line in chicago. Trust me I’ve seen it. He’s already shown more with Cinci then he did with the Bears so it could be that he fits your system better and he may end up being a decent back for you. Who knows? But based on his time here in the Windy City I’d be amazed if he ever produces at a first round pick level.
You’re more than welcome here, but sometimes when you defend your team you’ll get snarky comments. Comes with being on a Steelers blog that you’ll find people that are over-protective of the Steelers. I hope you keep coming back and making good posts. Just have a thick skin when you do.
by Chicago Steeler on May 29, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The bengals already had their shot at revenge on hines in game 2 last year
and they took it out on Holmes instead. He got ROCKED on a pass over the middle. And he caught it. And with Ben’s help he walked off the field. NEXT
BTW JUNGLEJOHN, so far I have enjoyed your relatively respectful and insightful posting style. Please come back more often.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Bang On - Carson is to Ben ...
as Kenny Anderson was to Terry Bradshaw.
That captures it (almost) … Anderson had guts and played pretty tough on some pretty bad teams … whereas Palmer’s living off the memory of one good season that didn’t end so well … HA HA
Who dey?
So will Carson be our QB’s coach in 20 years too?
by NYSteelersFan4 on Jun 1, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Where you stand depends on where you sit
I did say that it was just my opinion when discussing the Ward/Rivers hit. Only Ward knows his true intent. Kimo knew Carson personally and I am sure he didn’t hurt Carson intentionally and I defended Kimo at the time much to the chagrin of my fellow Bengal fans.
BTW I have no idea how good the Bengals will be this year. Hell we could go 2-14 or 14-2. It will be what it will be. I am pretty sure however that we will be much improved over last year and should be even better next year. You guys don’t have a hell of a lot of room for improvement so we can’t help but catch up a bit. We are at least showing signs of trying to do it the right way but the Steelers weren’t built in a year or even two. They built a sold base and rotate older players out while bringing good young talent in after giving them time to develop a bit. That is the way to do it. We don’t have that luxury. Our draft picks have to get right in ther to keep us afloat. and even if thing go well it will be a couple of years before we can draft for the future.
You guys should be proud and happy to have your team. I would be a Steeler fan if I could but I just value loyalty too much. I am a Bengal fan – win or lose. It is just a burden I have to bear. Some of my favorite players of all time were Steelers. Can you say Lambert? Don’t get me wrong – I still hate you (comes with the territory) – but your organization has my respect. BTW I am a combat veteran and I fought for you guys as well as Cinci fans. You are all my brothers too. I only hate you as fans. BTW you guys suck ( have I said that yet?). LOL BTW, being an tOSU grad Holmes is my boy. I’m glad we didn’t hurt him too bad. Obviously we didn’t with his SB winning catch and all.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran

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