Is Brett Keisel's Contract Extension Another Example Of Steelers Players Accepting Less Money To Remain With NFL's Most Successful Franchise?
by Michael Bean on Sep 2, 2009 5:06 PM EDT
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PrintI wanted to hold off commenting on the re-signing of defensive end Brett Keisel until the actual terms of the deal were released. My initial reaction to the news several days ago was one of relative shock. I thought for quite some time that Keisel would be one of the prominent mainstay veterans that wouldn't be retained for the 2010 season and beyond. Instead of Keisel, I thought it was more likely that Justin Hartwig, Ryan Clark, Casey Hampton or Jeff Reed would be offered extensions before Keisel. That said, I thought the wild card in the situation might be Keisel's willingness to accept less money than he might otherwise earn on the open market after becoming a free agent at the end of this coming season.
So, what are the terms of Keisel's extension?
Keisel was offered a 4-year extension that will keep him with the Steelers through the 2013 season. Keisel was schedule to earn $3.25 million in 2009. The new deal pays him a total of $18.888 million over the course of the next five season, for an average of $3.78 million per year. Keisel also received a $5 million dollar signing bonus which will be prorated over 5 years at a salary cap hit of $1 million per year.
Bottom line? That's not much dough to keep around a high-energy, great locker room guy who will at worst be a very, very good reserve linemen for the next half decade.
So what does the signing mean? Well, at first, before seeing the terms of the deal, I was concerned that the Steelers might be veering away from their organizational philosophy of not overpaying for past performance to players who've likely passed their prime physically. I'd say Keisel, who turns 31 this year, is neither over the hill nor still in his absolute prime. There was of course the re-signing of James Farrior to a long-term deal when he was past the age of 30. Same for Hines Ward. Farrior and Ward, however, got larger deals than did Keisel. That's fitting considering their contributions to the team compared to Keisel's.
Ward and Farrior are also the heart and soul of the team. It made sense to pay for that extra something that both players undeniably give the organization. For Keisel, it might be a bit harder to justify paying top dollar for, even though he reportedly is as good as it gets in the locker room and a fine player himself. The Steelers didn't have to pay top dollar though to re-sign Keisel because he didn't demand it. I believe this is why the organization tends to do these contract extensions a year before they expire rather than after. By doing them a year early, the organization is able to see which players are interested in staying in Pittsburgh for a reasonable price before the pressures of outside offers roll in to tempt players to move on. It's a good litmus test of character and loyalty to the franchise - in Keisel's case to a team that drafted him as a 7th rounder and stuck with him early on while he developed. And it's a good way for the organization to save some precious salary cap space by not having to push the upper boundaries of what they offer to players.
What's great about this signing to me is that it suggests that players are perhaps sacrificing a bit more money to remain with the NFL's most successful franchise. I was personally shocked that Heath Miller was signed so early in the process considering the potential labor issues looming in the future. But he was, and for a price that likely was quite a bit lower than what he might have garnered elsewhere after this season. Miller seemingly wanted to remain with the Steelers.
Now Keisel has inked a deal for what I feel is probably a bit less than his going rate. Not as big a discrepancy as the contracts signed by Max Starks' or Miller - I think those two players really left money on the table. But still, I think wanting to remain with such a well run, successful franchise like the Steelers factored in to Keisel's decision as well.
What a beautiful thing if that trend is indeed true. And what an even more beautiful thing if it were to continue in to the future as the futures of other key Steelers players are eventually discussed and determined.
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Maybe, or it may be the reverse
I agree, but i’m also thinking that perhaps the steelers tend to sign players who have the kind of character that allows this to happen?
We got rid of plax because of his arrogance…and knew he played for himself from the early on. Not because we couldnt afford him(which I always thought before). But we do pay top dollar in comparison to other teams when need be(big ben, polamalu(highest paid DB at the time), harrison) etc.
I feel that in general, the steelers pick players who are not overly greedy, petulant, and arrogant.
I’ll never forget when Hampton said that he was playing a child’s game, that he grew up poor and was being very well compensated here and would never complain. if the coaches had a problem with his weigh the’d deal with it but that in the grand scheme of things it wasnt anything to get pissed about.
Thats basically the atitutde the guys have here. that they know they’re getting paid a lot of money thats really not commensurate with what they do for our society as much as say a physician or someone, yet they play to the hilt, and play with a humble attitude. Thats important.
by surag238 on Sep 2, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
agreed
i think that definitely plays in to it. thats why im kind of shocked that clark hasnt signed. he seems to be one of those humble, non-demanding/no-ego type guys.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
Just not enough money this year.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it gets done next year, Mundy doesn’t look like the future.
I seem to constantly disagree with your analysis of guys taking “cuts” to stay with the steelers. I don’t think this was a steal. I do think it’s a better deal than Miller was, and I do think that keeping Keisel is important at this juncture.
Willie Colon - top 2 RT in the NFL
i (for the most part) agree with you
i think some players are willing to take some level of “cuts” to stay with the team. but i agree it’s not a steal cuz he’ll be costing us about $4 mil a year to probably be a backup DE, even though this was the right move & he’s worth the money. and i also agree clark will be a big priority after the season.
i said earlier before training camp, i really think clark is looking for a big payday. he’s starting to get up there in age & despite being a starting safety for one of the best defenses in the league he hasn’t made that much money over the course of his professional career (with respect to other professional players). for ex) while keisel’s made over $10.4 million in the last 3 years alone, clark’s made about $6.4 over his entire CAREER. and he’s no spring chicken & has never been able to play all 16 games in a season. heck, even reed has made more money than clark during their careers & they’ve spent the same number of seasons in the league.
and if you want, you can add another 5.5 mil to keisel’s total for this year and 1.7 mil for clark. that brings keisel’s 4 year total to 15.9 and clarks career total to 8.1. funny thing is they’ve been starting with the steelers for the same amount of years.
sorry for the extended rant, but it wouldnt surprise me if that’s whats keeping the deal from getting done with clark. he’s looking for top dollar because he’s never gotten it & knows his years left in the league are numbered and the steelers don’t wanna pay him that much cuz he’s injury prone. and i really hope we keep him beyond this year.
generally, DLineman have higher salaries than safeties. But I see what you’re saying. I think that there’s definitely something to your argument. And I would argue that Clark deserves somewhat of a big payday…I’d rather have Clark over Hope, and Hope got a pretty decent payday in Tenn.
breathe in deep feel your heart beat, just to know that life's worth livin'. feel your feet on the earth, better love it while it's still here spinnin'.
by NoCal-SteelCity on Sep 2, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think
the biggest reason why they opted to extend Kiesel over Clark is that extending Clark would probably have cost us more against the cap. Extending Kiesel has almost certainly reduced it.
We also, I think, don’t have the actual details for Kiesel’s contract yet? It uses the words $5m guaranteed and $18.88m over 5 years? Well firstly, that doesn’t necessarily mean that $5m is all signing bonus. It could, and most likely is, a combination of his signing bonus and his first year salary being guaranteed. I would also think that included in the $18.88m somewhere is a roster bonus, which could come as early as next year perhaps. That roster bonus is in effect an option on the future years of the deal. If Kiesel’s a backup by that point we don’t pay the roster bonus, he hits the market and he may at some point come back on backup money. If he’s still starting and contributing by then they may opt to pay it and keep him on that deal. Regardless of what ever else happens though I suspect there’s big salaries in the final 2 years of that deal he’s extremely unlikely to ever see.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 2, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
if extending keisel would’ve saved us money against the cap, then we would be able to pursue extending someone else also. i’m pretty sure kiesel’s salary cap value increased since we signed him.
With his new contract, Keisel’s cap hit for this year is $3.25 million. Under his old contract his cap hit this year was almost $5 million. One of the ways that the hometown discount helps the Steelers is that veterans who want to stay here take extensions that allow the team to lower the cap hit and use that temporary accounting saving to sign other players.
by steeler.lifer on Sep 2, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
well..
Kiesel’s new cap hit according to Steel Depot is around $3.5m. Before his extension it was $4.998m. So as you can see extending Kiesel saved us a fair whack, roughly $1.5m
We’re under the cap right now but there’s a few things to be aware of.
Firstly, I think the current cap total is the top 51 cap hits of the 75 guys on the current roster. When the trim downs happen all 53 players will count against the cap. That may put us closer to the cap.
What is of bigger concern to us this year is that because 2010 is scheduled to be an uncapped year any unlikely to be earned incentives which are earned during the season will count against the cap IMMEDIATELY. So guys on incentive laden deals who meet their incentives could start to cost us a lot more on the cap than they currently do. So renegotiating an extension with Kiesel doesn’t give us money to re-sign someone else (though it may help) because we may need that money by November so we don’t have to cut someone because James Harrison got his 20th sack and Big Ben threw his 30th TD of the season!
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 2, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Without knowing the LTBE it’s impossible to predict exactly how much money is available under the cap but that is a given with every team. Fans never know exactly how much was available until after the fact, so it’s hardly something to worry about in advance. The team continually amazes us with signings that we didn’t think were possible given the best information available to determine cap space. Given that history it’s more likely the opposite is true, that the team in fact has more money available than we know rather than less. The bottom line here is that Keisel’s new contract probably creates $1.75 million (Steeler Depot has his cap hit now at $3.225 million, down from $4.998 million) of extra cap space at this point in time. In all likelihood the team already knows exactly how it intends to spend, or not spend, the estimated $7 million in cap space it has at this point.
by steeler.lifer on Sep 3, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Damn accounting
One thing that isn’t accounted for in Steeler Depot’s figures is that under his previous contract Keisel was due a $1.7 million bonus in 2009. Since that bonus still has to be accounted for, it probably has to be added to the $3.225 he is due to make this year (on paper). Next year, Keisel’s cap hit will be about $1 million less, about $3.9 million. At least that’s the way it looks to an amateur. Seriously, the money stuff is much harder to keep track of than sacks and much less fun. All the more reason to be thankful the Steelers FO really does know what they’re doing.
by steeler.lifer on Sep 3, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
no
it’s different this year because of 2010 being scheduled to be an uncapped year. LTBE incentives will already be known and they’ll have accounted for them already. It’s the Unlikely to be Earned incentives that will be dealt with differently. If 2010 were a capped year then ULTBE incentives which are earned in the coming season would get added onto the cap for 2010. But, because there is no cap this year ULTBE incentives which are earned will count against the cap in 2009, as soon as they are earned. This is why teams need more spare cap space this year and do not know exactly what the cap hits of their current players will be. It’s an unusual set up this year but depending on what incentives are in players contracts it’s possible they could need several million spare to get through the season without having ti cut someone for cap reasons.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 3, 2009 6:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand that kiwi, but what I meant was that it’s impossible for fans to know at this point what the incentives are for all the players without knowing all the contract details. The team does certainly know exactly what the potential payout could be for all LTBE and ULTBE incentives and will obviously keep cap space available to pay them because of the uncapped season ahead. It figures that some teams will have higher ULTBE incentives than others. The need for extra cap space heading into the uncapped year might indeed be a factor in whether or not they have room to add a player or renegotiate another contract, but we don’t know that without knowing the full amount of potential incentive payouts. My point is that any contract that could be renegotiated to provide a lower cap hit must to some extent help the cap space, whether it’s space the team feels it needs to pay out incentives or in fact provides room to sign another player. Outside the FO, no one knows exactly how much cap room the Steelers have, but in the meantime they have made a lot of progress this season getting new contracts done for players who might have become free agents next year. The only significant players left who they otherwise can’t control via RFA are Clark, Hampton, Hartwig and Reed, and two of those could be franchised. All in all it’s been a very productive summer for the FO especially considering the uncertainty of an uncapped season in 2010.
by steeler.lifer on Sep 3, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
see thats where you are wrong
1) steelers depot is nice and is the best play on the internet right now (i’m working on getting my stuff together) but it is far from completely right (he didn’t know that vet min counts less against the contract than the actual salaries or about the rule of 51 until i emailed him. & there are plenty other mistakes he has as well but i’m just tired of fixing his mistakes when he wont even bother sending an email saying thanks back so i’m just going to do my own. but thats besides the point). the guy forgot to include the last fourth of keisel’s signing bonus from his contract he signed 3 years ago because it still hasnt been counted against the cap.
2) the cba states that any signing bonuses that go past this season (since it’s the last capped season as of right now) must be finished prorating against the “cap”, even if there isn’t one, by 2012. so keisel’s 5 mil signing bonus is really prorated over 4 years, not 5. so, based upon the numbers thrown around above, that’ll put keisel’s hit this year about 5 mil.
3) even when the next two ppl are added on to salary cap, it will only add 900K to the salary cap if the team keeps the highest 53 paid ppl. because those ppl salaries will be around 450K.
4) are you sure the ULTBE incentives work like that? and if so we knew about this all year and were taking this into account.
i dont have much time right now since i have to get back to class but i’ll read the cba about that and get back
I don't think Steelers Depot's #'s are complete
I think he’s guessed on the signing bonus there. It kind of alludes to it in stating as per news reports $5m is guaranteed. He’s then assumed that $5m guaranteed is all signing bonus. It might be but I suspect his signing bonus is actually smaller, that his salary this year has become guaranteed (which is looking like standard operating procedure in the NFL these days, rather than the big Signing bonuses of previous years) and that the missing chunk of money will probably be a roster bonus due a couple of years down the line. That would fit in much more with what I’ve been seeing in NFL contracts this year. I also noticed he wasn’t counting the unprorated chunk left over from Kiesel’s last contract. But because I figured Steeler Depot was probably overestimating Kiesel’s signing bonus on this extension I figured by the time all is said and done KIesel’s cap hit will probably be less than $5m and most likely somewhere between $3.5 and $4m for this year. Obviously I’m making my own assumptions as well about his deal based on other people’s recent deals and extensions but whilst Steelers Depot and I arrived at the values via different assumptions, I don’t think his final figure will be way off.
Even if his cap hit does approach $5m this year and he saves us nothing against the cap it still won’t be costing us more against the cap. I think were we to do a new deal with Ryan Clark that his cap hit would increase, not decrease or stay the same. Besides which if there is no CBA next year we’ll have 2 franchise tags to use. Safeties are amongst the cheapest to franchise tag (circa $6m this year, versus DEs who are $9m). Only Tight Ends and Defensive Tackles are cheaper to franchise.
2. I’d forgotten about the 4 year thing. Thanks. But given that I think Kiesel’s signing bonus may be around the $2.5m mark it doesn’t make a massive difference.
3. the two extra people may of course even save us money, say, for example if they opt to keep Sonny Harris over Travis Kirschke, that’ll be a cap saver. But yeah worst case scenario is a million difference tops.
4. I’m pretty sure on the ULTBE incentives. I’ve read it in several articles this offseason. It’s hard to take them into account if you’re the Steelers, we don’t know the types or amounts of incentives on offer to the players but for example, James Harrison last year had a stellar season, his new deal may contain incentives but as he very likely met most of them based on last season the league will treat them as LTBE so they should already be counting against our cap. It’s guys like FWP and Big Ben who last year had somewhat down seasons and will probably not have met many of their incentives last year. So more of their incentives will be ULTBE this year. SO say Ben duplicates his 2007 numbers, throws for 30 TDs and 4000 yards (unlikely but hey), we could be looking at some substantial incentives hitting the cap in December. I’m guessing of course that he has big incentives in his deal but you see where I’m coming from. It’s tough at this point to account for exactly what ULTBE incentives players may meet but whereas in most seasons teams would probably carry a couple of million in cap room into the season to deal with having to pick up players to cover injuries, this year they might want to have much more cap room, dependent on how incentive laden it’s contracts are, to be on the safe side.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 3, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
but....
1) its 5 mil GUARANTEED. that’s the different from a normal roster bonus cuz if you cut someone before they get the roster bonus, then they dont get it & it doesnt count on the cap. even if its, for example, a 5 mil guaranteed “roster bonus” 3 years down the road year & we cut him before then, once we cut him it would all count against the “cap”. but let’s remember you’re going by what you “think” is the signing bonus, meanwhile the pittsburgh post gazette reports its a 5 mil bonus
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09244/994643-66.stm
but what i’m saying is, even if you’re right about the ULTBE incentives have to count against the cap this year, the steelers knew that going into this offseason and have had that taken into account since the beginning of the offseason. the front office knew we had X amount to work with on the cap to sign ppl to extensions going into training camp. & predictions by ppl in the know claimed we had enough room to sign one more person. after keisel was signed these ppl said we can’t sign anyone else. so if keisel’s contract didnt touch the cap at all, then why are these same ppl saying we dont have anymore cap room to sign ppl to the cap?
Kiwi
I don’t know if you are new to the steelers but please allow me to say that the steelers don’t operate that way. And what I mean is that it would be outright unthinkable to suggest that the Rooneys would let a player go just so they could sign him again for a cheaper tag. Please read a recently posted article by Maryrose on The Chief and you’ll see what I mean.
by The_Nation_in_Mexico on Sep 3, 2009 12:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I believe I read in the Trib this week
that Clark has said he wants to stay in the ‘Burgh. His wife does too. That’s usually a good sign of an impending home town discount.
I remember when brady signed for a relatively hometownish amount in new england. I thought about how that was the most dangerous thing for the Steelers – players taking a discount to play for one of our rivals. Now the tables have turned…
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Comments the Steelers Ryan Clark made to Ed Bouchette that appeared in the Tuesday editions of the Post-Gazette:
His words:
``The organization is going to do what’s best for them from a business standpoint, and I think they’re trying to do the best they can in keeping the core together.
``As for me, you just finish playing football. Nothing I can do. I want to be here; I made that known. I’m tired of moving, my wife is tired of moving, my son plays tailback and free safety on his little community team, I’m excited to watch that.
``We love it here, we want to be here and we’ll see what happens."
``In this situation, I hold no cards. My job as husband and father is to provide for my family and this is the way I do it. I’m not going to pitch a fit and not show up. I love the guys I play with, I love this organization and more importantly I have a responsibility."
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bobsmizik/default.aspx
Let’s hope Clark has a productive, destructive, and injury free season and the Steelers and he can come to mutually beneficial terms in 2010.
I am happy to see Diesel kept on the payroll as I think he could still improve and it seems like these older guys can be kept around longer with a solid rotation. That means more fun with Ziggy, Hoke and others.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
There's also a Burgh Comfort Zone factor
1) There is no better organization to play for than the Pittsburgh Steelers. Sure, some guys fly the coop on the principle that they should be making more money, but a great majority really want to continue playing for the organization. The pride of the Lombardi six-pack, the respect the Rooney family has internationally and the family atmosphere that the Rooneys have created are all very special. Perhaps my bias is showing, but I’d venture that the Steelers organization has more magnetism to its employess than any other pro sports franchise.
2) Steeler Nation helps. Those players know how revered they are. It’s hard to walk away from that. Again, a few always do, but to a man those players will tell you how special it is to walk into an enemy stadium and play a home game.
3) Pittsburgh is a really great place to live. I think I saw a recent poll declaring the Burgh one of the most liveable towns in America. You might be surprised at how many ex-Steelers stay in town after their careers.
4) Moving is no fun, especially after you’re finished with your 20s. I don’t know about you folks, but I dread the thought of packing up and starting over somewhere. Keisel has a wife and son. They might well want to stay in the current comfort zone and raise their kid.
5) There’s a winning/losing factor involved. Players want to win. Their competetive nature makes them hate losing. If you want that feeling after winning a Super Bowl, no place hotter these days than Pittsburgh.
6) Those guys hate to go into their last year with no contract thereafter. They can’t help fearing an injury that would bring it all to a sudden halt. Keisel just put $5 mill into his pocket at the very least. Security matters, especially for an underrated player who never gets statistics or the credit he probably deserves.
Again, everyone is different. Foote wanted badly to be a first-stringer so he returned home. Faneca got his nose out of joint when the Steelers chose to throw their larger dollars elsewhere. McFadden could make too much of an increase elsewhere, etc. But this deal is very solid for Keisel. Add in any or all of the above six elements and you’ve got a happy number 99
Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history
I think Pittsburgh won the most liveable big city award last year
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
Napoleon Bonaparte
by LV Steelers Fan on Sep 2, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
reading too far
Every year there are 1,696 players on the active roster, and every year a fair number of those finish their contract. A limited number will garner attention throughout the league, with teams salivating over the prospect of them reaching free agency. Many of them will have played their last year in the NFL, deemed “over the hill” by the collective NFL braintrust. Then lastly there are guys like Keisel.
Most teams have a Keisel, guys that no one outside the organization (especially fans) really considers. If the guy hits free agency, he’ll probably make decent scratch, but they aren’t going to hit the jackpot. The NFL is a business, and players are people.
If I’m in my mid 30s working as a lawyer in Pittsburgh (which I am not, but there are many), and an offer comes through from a NY law firm, then I have many of the same questions to answer as keisel. Do I like where I am living (point 3 in your post)? Do I like my job (point 5)? Do I want to move (point 4)? Am I taking a lucrative job offer and losing security (point 6)? Am I appreciated at my job (point 2)? Is my company doing great things (point 1)?
Like any job, the answers to those questions are going to strongly affect how a player reacts. I suspect that Keisel has good answers to all of these questions, and a nagging wife to back them up.
However, I think much is made of players in Pittsburgh taking “home-town discounts” as if that is somehow special. There are players a lot like Keisel in a lot of organizations that sign deals with the same team to end their careers with little fanfare. Much like Miller, Keisel took a deal that could be argued to be good for the team and good for him personally. There are players elsewhere who are also happy with their situation and aren’t exactly falling over themselves to come to Pittsburgh. They are staying where they are. It’s all about the Benjamins, but it’s also about the points that you laid out.
Willie Colon - top 2 RT in the NFL
by steelguy99 on Sep 3, 2009 6:25 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
good stuff Rec’ed
I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!
by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on Sep 3, 2009 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
While the points I laid out sometimes apply and sometimes don’t apply everywhere, I think they apply a little more with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Those points don’t apply evenly across the NFL landscape. When you have a winning team, stable ownership, liveable city and rabid Nation, the hometown discount comes more into play than a place with lesser elements. I don’t think I was clear on that.
Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history
No they do not, but you are interpreting them in a certain way for certain people. For Keisel and A. Smith, Pittsburgh might be a place they want to stick around. That is because of who they are. There are a lot of players that are much happier to stay in Denver, because they would much prefer to live there (I know one player in particular who does not). A lot of players hate the cold, a lot of players wives hate the cold. This city is not for everyone for many reasons.
Players want to win/lose, but not everyone thinks the steelers have the best shot. Players at NE might be very content to stay there because they think they have a better shot at winning consistently. Every player when faced with Keisel’s questions comes up with different answers, and whether they give a slight, big or no hometown discount will depend on them, Keisel has given a slight one.
Some players might prefer living in Phoenix. Some players may prefer playing for the NYC coaches and staff. Some players may think NE has the best shot. These questions and answers aren’t unique to the Pittsburgh steelers. To all of us, the steelers are our favorite team. That doesn’t mean that fans of other teams have somehow chosen poorly (except for Detroit) or should change their mind, and that doesn’t mean that we are the only special team in the NFL.
Willie Colon - top 2 RT in the NFL
It is simply smart, effective & honorable
negotiating that understands what the other party wants and then creates a solution that wins for both sides.
The Rooneys
I think a big thing is that the players know that the Rooneys have a history of taking care of former players if they have serious injuries. Just a part of the whole family atmosphere that you mentioned. I’m suer that also plays into it.
For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.
by WolfpackSteelersFan on Sep 3, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Coming Back
After reading the thread I would agree for the most part that Keisel was easier to sign. Although I would have prefered to get a deal done with Clark b/c our Safety backups are suspect, it was going to cost to much. If we lose him and Hampton in the same year we’ll be in some trouble. Let’s hope something gets done to pay one and franchise the other.
Maryrose mentioned Foote and I think he may come back to us next year. I think Farrior might hang ’em up and Foote could be the starter all over again.
Alright, okay, I don't dance, no way I just take my Terrible Towel out and wave it around in the air!!!!
Keisel...
if i was a slightly above average player i’d stay with pittsburgh for less money….but i’m biased
Keisel
is every bit as good as Aaron Smith. Just because the announcers and other press don’t talk him up doesn’t change that.
Also- he might have gotten a bigger contract elsewhere, but i think he knows he’s far more likely to see every penny of THIS one in PIT. Another team would likely cut him as soon as it found a cheaper, fairly decent replacement.
Brett is a specimin- big, fast, strong, smart, tough, and never hurt(knock on wood and bless the Football Gods!).
Anyone who thinks otherwise grossly underestimates the value of a good 3-4 DE.
Keisel is a good player
but he is not as good as Aaron Smith.
Anyone who thinks otherwise grossly underestimates just how good Aaron Smith is.
Do you LOOK for things to argue about, ..trip?
How about you impress me by explaining exactly how Aaron is sooooo much better than Brett? Aside, of course, from the fact that the announcers talk about Aaron more?
Also- Hood won’t be starting in place of Keisel anytime soon. I wouldn’t read too much into the idea of a “starter” at DE anymore anyways; it takes AT LEAST 3 #1-quality DEs for a top-level defense in the NFL these days. Who plays the first series isn’t an indicator-necessarily- of who plays the whole game on the D-line anymore.
Thanks for popping to disagree with me yet again, worldtrip. You sure are smart.
Smith simply dominates from his position more, requires more double teams, and plays the run better. Keisel might rush the pass a little better, but that is arguable. And frankly, hear Keisel get interviewed, he is the first to say he doesn’t hold a candle to Smith.
I don’t look for disagreements with you, it just seems to happen that way.
I do, however, get really really really annoyed when someone says “this is my opinion and if you don’t agree with my opinion, then you don’t know anything”. In case you don’t think that is what you said, I am going to quote you just below.
Keisel is every bit as good as Aaron Smith. (your opinion). Anyone who thinks otherwise grossly underestimates the value of a good 3-4 DE. (if you disagree with my opinion then you are an idiot)
by worldtrip on Sep 2, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is easy...
when Kiesel was hurt last year Travis Kirschke and Nick Eason stepped in and our defense didn’t miss a beat.
When Aaron Smith was hurt the year before our D could not cope with the loss.
I’ll take worldtrip’s assessment here. Kiesel is a good player but Aaron Smith is the best 3-4 DE outside of New England, and arguably the best in the league.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 3, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, he does seem to do that a lot, but he pokes at pretty much everyone without discriminating. And I’m with him on this one.
Keisel does get hurt – last season he missed 6 games because of injury and the wheels stayed firmly bolted to our defense. Aaron Smith misses two games the year before with a knee injury (first time he’d missed a game since 1999) and those wheels are already popping out of alignment:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07313/832457-66.stm
Not to mention the whole transmission falling straight through the engine block when he went on IR a month later for the torn bicep.
Smith gets recognition from other players for being one of the toughest studs in the division: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/1893/player-survey-top-qb-and-toughest-player
Yes, he only got two votes out of 32, but that’s two more than Keisel got. And consider that two guys on other AFC North teams felt so strongly about it that they cast their vote for Smith over the likes of James Harrison, Ray Lewis, Hines Ward, et al.
Smith absorbs double teams as well as Hampton does, if not better.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/highschool/football/s_597234.html
I’ve yet to find praise like that for Keisel from anyone in the league, let alone Dick LeBeau himself.
by barnerburner on Sep 3, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Smith vs. Kiesel
I love Kiesel, but Aaron Smith is more valuable. I’m sure we all remember what happened to the run defense in ‘07 when Smith went down. He eats up blocks and he can slide down on the nose when asked to do so. Don’t get me wrong — I think Kiesel’s a fine player and I’m glad we re-signed him. He’s one of those high-motor, high-energy guys who brings it each and every play. But Smith’s speed, toughness and impeccable technique make him the better all-around player. He’s the guy I’d take if I could only have one of them.
Tobiathan’s right about the DE rotation, though. With all of the passing and the specialized offensive packages, it definitely takes three these days. That’s why this is a really solid re-signing. The Smith-Kiesel-Hood rotation will sure serve us well over the next few years…
by cliff harris is still a punk! on Sep 2, 2009 10:15 PM EDT reply actions
I concur
almost completely….
….the only point i’m not completely sold on is the idea that Smith is so much better than Keisel. My inclination is to say that Smith seems so much more valuable only because we’ve all seen what happens without him for extended periods. Keisel, however(and luckily!) hasn’t missed any time since becoming a starter. Not that i remember, anyway.
c.h.i.s.a.p. might be right about Smith’s technique-impeccable is an excellent description- but i wonder if there’s really any major difference between the two otherwise? I’ve never seen Keisel out of position, and Brett falls back in coverage a LOT more often than Aaron. In all, Smith may be the better pure 3-4 DE, but Keisel is the more complete “athlete” and can even(and does at times) play standing up in a pseudo-LB configuration. Keisel is remarkably good at pass-coverage for a man 6’5"/300+lbs.
Exactly-
And it took two players to fill in for him in just a handful of games. Both played well beyond expectations, too. But- i doubt either could maintain that standard long-term. Both are decent DEs, though. Just not on par with Smith and Keisel.
Does anyone think Eason, Kirschke or even Hood could step in and totally replace an absent Keisel for most of a season?
Don’t lose track here: i never said Keisel was BETTER than Smith. Just that he’s equally talented and vital to the team.
Actually you said he is equally talented and vital, and if anyone disagrees with you they don’t know certain things.
I think he is neither equally talented or vital as Smith. I don’t think it is really tremendously close. He is, however, a good player and I am completely happy the Steelers have him.
Also, Kirschke and Eason play some every game. It wasn’t that they needed two people to replace him, so much as those two just played more.
Keisel missed six games last year, during which the Steelers went 5-1. In the first three games Keisel missed, the run defense was actually better (Philadelphia, Baltimore and Jacksonville). In the last three-game stretch the run defense (against New England, Dallas and Baltimore) was actually pretty spotty. Keisel is a good athlete with excellent pursuit and the ability to tip balls at the line of scrimmage. He is used in some stunts to take advantage of his athleticism and to free up rush lanes for Harrison and Timmons. He does not have the same kind of anchor against the run that a top DE like Aaron Smith has, rarely collapses the pocket and almost never beats a blocker one on one to get to the passer. He can get worn down against a physical offensive line. But he is smart, unselfish and willing to sacrifice his body on just about every play. A nice complementary player on the line who understands his job and is a great teammate. He’ll provide valuable rotational depth and may actually be a bit more productive when he plays fewer snaps. A fine player but not in Aaron Smith’s league.
by steeler.lifer on Sep 2, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
cmon, you don't actually believe Keisel is equal to Smith?
Because Keisel took security over a slightly bigger contract next year doesn’t make him a saint in my book.
He’s an over thirty replaceable 3-4 DE. He’s not special, and he’s not young. He took the guaranteed money now, because next year, who knows? It’s not like teams would have been breaking down the doors to get him.
When the injury bug has come to our D-line, we are near collapse without Aaron Smith. No Keisel? No problem, we just plug in our back-up, and our D doesn’t suffer.
13 years and no playoff wins for the Dallas Cowboys... SWEET!
When
has Keisel missed time?
I don’t recall his missing any extended time since becoming a starter.
And “no dropoff”? That’s just not true; Keisel is a rare player given his size, speed and motor. I’ve no idea why people have this bad impression of him, but it’s just not accurate. Keisel is a HUGE piece of our current dominant defense.
The two together, Keisel and Smith, are the best tandem in the game in a 3-4 set. If those two weren’t very, very good at their jobs there’d be no way at all we’d have had two 10+ sack LBers last year. In the 3-4 DEs must occupy at least two offensive players each on most every play, indirectly if not head-to-head.
Brett Keisel wouldn’t be a starter or even resigned in the FO didn’t see a LOT of value in him.
I’m just stunned that anyone doubts his value….
Diesel > Smith
At least when it comes to bustin’ a move.
The Diesel is terrific athlete and has tremendous versatility. He’d probably make a better linebacker than Aa Smith, but Smith is better at being a DE.
Diesel missed almost 6 games last season. Prior to that he went without missing a start in all of 2006 and 2007. Including those seasons, he played in 51 straight games. Overall, not a bad attendance record.
All that matters is that the FO believes in him
Keisel missed games last year, and there was no discernable drop-off. If the FO thinks he’s important to the future, than there you go.
I don’t doubt he’s of value to the team, or else they wouldn’t re-sign. I do say that he’s never been the pass rusher they thought he would be, and those who back him up seem to play with a very similiar level of result. When Aaron Smith has been out, there has been no relief from the back-ups.
13 years and no playoff wins for the Dallas Cowboys... SWEET!
Versatility and leadership...
…seem to be Keisel’s most valuable qualities. He is a fine athlete for a 300 lb. guy and I’m sure Coach LeBeau deems him really valuable when cooking up his zone-blitz schemes because of his ability to play in space. More importantly, my sense is that the FO wanted to re-sign him because they knew he’d be a good mentor to Ziggy and because he’s one of those “glue guys” that keeps the locker room together. I don’t think you can underestimate those things. You don’t overpay for them (and we didn’t here), but you don’t de-value them, either. If talent and $ won championships, Dallas and Washington would have ripped up the league the past ten years. So from those standpoints Keisel’s an integral guy.
by cliff harris is still a punk! on Sep 2, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions
theory
I think signing of Keisel means we won’t keep Hampton next year. We move Aaron to NT and our DEs will be Ziggy and Keisel.
That’s why this year Hood practices exclusively in Smith’s side.
Just a theory
ya, Aaron Smith is not a NT…he barley 300 pounds..
All the 3-4 NT that are any good are listed at 330 lbs plus….
I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!
by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on Sep 3, 2009 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, Jay Ratliff can be pretty dominating at times and he plays slightly under 300. Although I’m not sure how that would translate to the responsibilities that the Steelers particular 3-4 would demand from an NT. That is, I’m not sure how he’d handle the run.
by BluegrassSteeler on Sep 3, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Ratliff gets press because he gets sacks and plays for the Cowboys, but he’s not much of a run stuffer. He’s basically a 3 technique tackle playing nose, which is one reason that they led the league in sacks last year and also one reason that they gave up 4.2 YPC against the run last year.
Smith would be a much better Steelers nose tackle, but I’m not sure if that’d be the best move to make. We may, however, be heading in that direction because we have 3 DE’s signed to long, sizeable contracts and no clear nose tackle next year. It would give our pass rush a boost, although I’d hardly say we need it. If Ziggy gets better against the run over the course of the year (and I think he will eventually be a force there), it could be a viable defense for a year or two.
charity standing orders
Smith at NT
Based on the off-seasons re-signings, it seems about 90% certain that Snack is gone next year. So the FO has to decide if they like Chris Hoke as a full-time nose or if they’re going in another direction. Shake is right: Aaron Smith is not a NT. He can play there in passing situations, though. So I’d bet they’ll give Hoke the bulk of the snaps there, use Smith there situationally and draft an NT early to groom as Snack’s permanant replacement.
Either that or they’ll lavish millions on the best free agent DT out there…
:)
by cliff harris is still a punk! on Sep 3, 2009 7:55 AM EDT reply actions
Vince Wilfork??
Not gonna happen but I believe he’ll be a free agent in 2010 as well.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 3, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Next years NT
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/8/31/1008700/keisel-close-to-5-year-extension
I posted this on the 31st, the day the extension was signed. In it I actually go over a bunch of these possibilities to include Wilfork. Give it a read.
The Keisel signing
I see the signing of Keisel as a choice between Hampton and Keisel. As you may remember Hampton was a starter day one, next year will be his 9th season as our starting nose tackles. History shows that nose tackles have shorter careers then defensive ends, that said I know that Keisel has been in the league around the same time, but do remember that Keisel wasn’t a starter for his full career, thus taking less of a pounding on his body, which probably pro-longed his career, so I think the Steelers saw it as less of a risk then anything.
The whole Keisel vs. Ryan Clark signings is irrelevant, it would be great to keep him but do remember, in super bowl XL we had a safety by the name of Chris Hope, he left got a decent pay day and the city was in chaos, we needed to keep him to keep the chemistry with Troy, its so difficult to play with Troy because he is all over the field. Well Ryan Clark pretty much made it clear that it wasn’t too hard to play with Troy. We can draft a safety next year or move someone from corner to play safety with Troy, also there is an option called free agency, which is the same way we got Ryan Clark.
Discount
I don’t know if 5 years @ $18M really constitutes a discount for Keisel. I think he’d struggl to get much more than that in another system. He’s not big enough to play a 2 gap DE in the Parcels’ 3-4 that most of the rest of the NFL runs, and he’s not really enough of a pass rusher to play 4-3 strong side DE. I’m sure he could find a home, but it wouldn’t be a 5 year contract. Not that this is really a 5 year contract, but still.
charity standing orders
Steelers wanted to keep him, Keisel wanted to stay so ...
A good deal for both. Keisel probably would have gotten more money in free agency, but he’d have to play the whole year worrying about getting hurt and not having that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I also think signability is a reason why the team opted for Keisel instead of Clark. Tomlin also went to the front office and pushed for the deal with Keisel, according to Wex. Apparently Clark wants more money than what the Steelers are offering him right now, so they’ve decided to let him play out the year.
I think the Steelers will wait and see on Big Snack and I think it is the right move for the organization. He hasn’t came into the season in the type of shape that Tomlin would like the past few years and he hasn’t been the Big Snack of old on the field. So, why not let him play angry for a year and see what type of year he has and what type of numbers he puts up? Personally, I think he’s going to have a monster year because he is extremely motivated and pissed off. Good. Put it on tape.
I am a firm believer in that it is good to have some players going into their last year looking for that next deal. I also think the Steelers did one heck of a job locking up all the people that they did, signing Ratliff and McDonald for nothing, and then having the draft this team had (which I think is Colbert’s best overall since he’s been with the Steelers).
If Clark, FWP and Big Snack have career type seasons, then that means our team will be that much better for it. If not, it means that the slides in their games have probably begun and the Steelers will be looking for their replacements.
I think any athlete wants to be with a team where they are fairly compensated, appreciated, and has a chance to compete for championships every year. Pittsburgh provides that type of situation.
I’m just fortunate that I picked such a winner as a team to support. A lot of my buddies are jealous. And I tell them all the time, “No need for me to argue with you about football teams, just kneel down and kiss the rings!”
I'm happy about a pissed off and motivated Hampton
Remember the holding call in New England and the nasty sack that it resulted in? Pissed off Big Snacks means happy Steelers fans.
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
Agree 100 percent ...
I think D. LeBeau’s decision to play Big Snack some in the nickel will pay dividends for Snack and this “D” this year. Snack plays better when he has an edge to his game.
The info we will never know
I think this is a good signing. To be honest I thought when the Steelers drafted Hood in the 1st round that would be the end of Keisel after this year. The Steelers would use this year to groom Hood, and maybe try to resign Hampton next year, but what I haven’t thought about is Smith. Smith is getting up there in age, and he has a lot of family things to think and worry about. Maybe Smith is thinking about retiring after this year. ( I hope not, but it is possible.) Under this scenario the Steelers could of lost their 3 starting defensive linemen to retirement and free agency.
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