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Around SBN: 2011 In Extreme Home Runs

I had a Dream I was Kevin Colbert's Assistant!

It was neat.  It was one of those dreams you don't want to wake up from.  Anyhow, you all know how dreams are. Things can be really silly and way off base.  Anyhow, thought you'd be interested in how mine went, even if it was off base.  Kevin and I were in the office alone, and he trusted me unconditionally.  He was grooming me for a GM job down the road.

MR:   Kevin, can you explain the philosophy of the draft to me?  Need vs. Best Player Available?

KC:   (laughing) That's like nature vs. nurture.  It gets argued with no clear answer.

MR:  But you always come out every year at this time pounding your fist ensuring the media that we draft purely on BPA?

KC:  That's standard procedure.  It keeps the media off my back.  If I indicate the inclusion of need, I'll get pounded as to what those needs are.  Keep it as simple and as ambiguous as possible.  Drafting is a very, very tight-lipped procedure around here, around everywhere really.  Besides, why would I tip off our competitors by narrowing our focus?  Let them think the universe is our availability.  Don't give them any information whatsoever.

Star-divide

MR:  But you said that we would draft BPA, except for a quarterback.

KC:  I like to throw the media a small bone when I can, as long as it's harmless.  Pollian tells the folks in Indiana that he'll draft BPA, except for quarterback and tight end.  That's not tipping your hand, when it's that obvious.

MR:  OK, so what's the deal?  Need or BPA?

KC:  Both.  They're ranked in hierarchy then measured against each other.  In essence, it is done on a sliding scale.  The talent is measured against the need.

MR:  Excuse me?

KC:  Well, we start by ranking each of 12 positions in order of need, from 1 to 12.  This year it is OT, CB, G/C, ILB, S, DT, DE, RB, WR, OLB, TE, QB.  Of course, that assumes we sign every one of our current players. That hierarchy changes if we lose folks.  Then we rate every available player and assign an efficiency number.  The numbers go from around 60 to 100.  Then we construct our draft board.  Our draft board is a ranking system of players we would take if it was our turn to pick.  In other words, the first guy on our draft board is the guy we would take if we had the number one pick, etc.

MR:  So how does the player efficiency numbers relate to the need hierarchy to form the draft board?

KC:  We look at the highest rated player, the best talent, and then look to see how that fits need.  If the highest player matches our highest need, that's a no-brainer.  But let's say the best player available is a 94 at outside linebacker.  If there's a guy who ranks 93 at offensive tackle, that guy will be higher on our board because the need gap would be much greater than the efficiency gap.  The board has to take into account both gaps.  Sometimes, the difference in efficiency is razor thin, while the difference in need is wide.  Other times, the BPA must be taken because his superior talent trumps need.

MR:  Can you give me an example?

KC:  Yeah, Rashard Mendenhall.  He was high on our board.  Willie was coming off surgery and these days you need a second running back if the first guy is aging or has any injury issues.  Actually you'd like two regardless.  Mendy was also a great talent with good size, so we ranked him high.  When he fell, we had other needs, but his talent level warranted us to grab him.  BPA trumped need in that case.

MR:  Can you give me an example of the opposite?

KC:  Heath in 05.  He wasn't the best football player when we took him.  He was one of the best remaining, but not the best.  Our need at that position was so high, the difference in talent was a sliver.  It was a no brainer.  Logan Mankins and Michael Roos were still were still available, and they were actually a bit higher BPA-wise, but again, we felt a huge void at tight end.

MR:  Have you ever had a situation where the highest need happened to be the BPA?

KC:  That only happens under two conditions.  First, if you have a very high pick, you'll get both, but we don't have many of those, fortunately.  Second, if your highest need/BPA falls in a draft, you might trade up just to hit the jackpot.  Actually we did that twice recently, once for Troy and once for Tone.  It's got to be the perfect situation, since you pay a high price for moving up.

MR:  So, once you construct your board, which takes into account both BPA and need, you stick to that board no matter what?

KC:  Absolutely, just like Mendenhall, Heath, Ben, everyone.  But, after you make your first pick, the board immediately gets adjusted.

MR:  Why is that?

KC:  Because once you add a player, the need immediately lessens for that position.  After we got Ben first in 2004, all quarterbacks immediately dropped, regardless of BPA.  The next year, after we grabbed Heath, the tight ends dropped.  When we picked second, Alex Smith was actually the BPA, but after Heath we went in other directions. 

MR:  So the need drops once that position is added to the team.

KC:  Often but not always.  In 2007 we got Timmons and then followed up in the second round with Woodley.  First, they play two different positions within the linebacker position and second, there are four linebacker positions to begin with.  The fewer "spots" there are, the more need drops after acquisition.  After a quarterback, the need drops off the map, but with positions that make up three or four players, the need not might drop much at all.

MR:  Boy, this discussion would shock the "BPA purists" out there.  They think BPA is absolute.

KC:  Let them think that, and besides, BPA is critical in the equation.  You're always looking at BPA, but it's certainly not exclusive or absolute.  And remember, we'll never get hounded if we keep the company line, and keep the public message simple.

Comment 130 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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Wow.

My dreams are nothing like this. I usually start off at Taco Bell and end up floating in a sea of yogurt.

Great explanation of the process though.

by Phantaskippy on Jan 26, 2010 9:52 PM EST reply actions  

Really?

I suppose it is better than the usual “I have to give a big presentation and discovered I’m wearing my pjs” dream, but couldn’t it at least be Morten’s and Haagen Daz?

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 26, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t post what happens between, I tell you I have dreams one should only have on acid.

by Phantaskippy on Jan 27, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Mmm Taco Bell...smunchy

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice dream. I think that’s pretty much how every team operates. BPA with need also factored in. Except for the Raiders, i have no idea how they construct their draft board.

by Cols714 on Jan 26, 2010 10:00 PM EST reply actions  

The raiders draft assessment=

step 1: speed
step 2: ???
step 3: Profit

by Phantaskippy on Jan 26, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

*sings*

“We won’t stop ’till we have a 4.2 player! Yum, dum, dummy, dum, hey!”

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

is this legit?

i have honestly never seen a dream this logical in my life

by hasay on Jan 26, 2010 10:07 PM EST reply actions  

I think that MR

was looking for a nice way to shut up those of us who quoted Kevin Colbert. He did a great job too – thanks for the explanation. I’m finding the draft even more confusing and drama-laden than the season.

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 26, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks Momma, I was trying more to be safe than nice, but if nice came across then I’m glad. Like everyone else, I am not behind closed doors so I don’t really know anything. By having a “dream” I have license to imagine without sounding dogmatic. I had another dream a couple weeks ago about Bruce Arians meeting with Tomlin and Rooney and the whole line situation, running the ball, etc.

When I see all these posts that imply that the “Steelers will draft the best available player, period, end of discussion,” I am desperately hoping that is wrong. Are the Ravens really going to draft Jahvid Best if he’s technically the highest-ranked player available? The Colts a tight end? The Steelers a quarterback? The Browns a left tackle or another center? I really want need to be more of a factor than the BPA purists think that it is. I want to think that drafting an offensive lineman in the first round is more than a 1 in 12 chance, which is all it would be if BPA was pure, since there are 12 positions on a team.

It’s been said here that you never know when a guy is going to get hurt. That’s true. Maybe Ray Rice, McGahee and McClain will all fall of the earth, but do you really tie up that much money to a bench player on the chance of injury? And yes, things change quickly. What you don’t think is need in February becomes need in October, but you can’t have a football team that is stockpiled with excess talent in one area and badly in need in another. The NFL landscape doesn’t work well that way these days.

Bottom line is I am more of a “need guy” than maybe most of you, but that’s only if the difference in talent is marginal. And I’m hoping the Steelers, behind closed doors, are the same way. If the talent differential is slight, I think drafting a stud O-lineman in the first round is the way to go.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 27, 2010 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Are you in politics?

:)

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

He must be

That came so naturally.

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Smooth as silk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what she said...

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

What is it with guys?

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Um...We're stupid?

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't say stupid

but I might say obsessed…

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

We're a little more open with our obsession than women

Trust me I have studied….am I was surprised but pleased with the results of my studies.

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

am=and

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

They make me walk real funny

Make me spend my money…

Chantilly lace, and a pretty face.

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Congratulations...

On the first Big Bopper reference I have ever seen on BTSC. Well played good sir.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 27, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It wasn't hard trust me

I know, I know…

That’s what she said

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

SMH

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok next time I'll just let someone hit it off the tee

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I expect you were.

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's more fun to have a tigress revealed

rather than advertised. The surprise is part of the fun.

I need to stop. This is going down hill fast.

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess what I should have said was

we find stupid humor funnier than intellectual humor, for the most part.

Errr…We shouldn’t talk about this anymore. We might get accused of threadjacking….

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a bit late for that.

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a viper in our ranks

But Dr. Del is kind of taking care of that.

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

lol to the early comments

Nice MR.

Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)

by Michael Bean on Jan 26, 2010 10:27 PM EST reply actions  

I dreamt last night that penguins were teaching me how to play the harmonica underwater

I think Billy Bob Thorton was there too. Are you sure you’re dreaming this and not just getting into deep though? I’ve never had a realistic dream in my life.

"People hate the Patriots because they cheat. People hate the Steelers because the Steelers are everything that they want their team to be."

Xbox Live Gamertag- Alf Ardanyu

by SoCalSteelerFan on Jan 26, 2010 11:29 PM EST reply actions  

did the pirates teach you underwater basket weaving as well

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: DIck Lebeau, Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
I want to have sex with this moment. And get this moment pregnant. VAsaintsfan after the 2009 NFC championship game

by WVPiratesfan on Jan 26, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Pirates hate under water basket weaving

They love shuffle board.

"People hate the Patriots because they cheat. People hate the Steelers because the Steelers are everything that they want their team to be."

Xbox Live Gamertag- Alf Ardanyu

by SoCalSteelerFan on Jan 27, 2010 2:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Great post

But uh, my dreams never make sense, but at the same time, they’re not those completely spontanious ones that you see in cartoons. Much more of just a bunch of random jumbled images.

BTSC Obituaries

OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.

by Tim Mullhaupt (HSS) on Jan 26, 2010 11:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Same here

Dreams pretty much consist of things that can never happen.

But if I were Colbert’s assistant I would demand that we sign LeCharles Bentley this minute.

by StoneColdSteel on Jan 26, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

"People hate the Patriots because they cheat. People hate the Steelers because the Steelers are everything that they want their team to be."

Xbox Live Gamertag- Alf Ardanyu

by SoCalSteelerFan on Jan 27, 2010 2:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Frued would say differently...

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

How do I embed a video youtube here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU2Xtf8VkbU

Andy Kaufman Sings Rose Marie by Slim Whitman

After his amazing Drum Dance

LOL

by lightningrod on Jan 26, 2010 11:42 PM EST reply actions  

In my dreams, I jump into my na'vi body

and then play football. Troy doesn’t need such a body to keep up though.

by SteelersVT on Jan 27, 2010 8:04 AM EST reply actions  

Na’vi jump into Troy-like bodies to play football

by barnerburner on Jan 28, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

MR Dream

  An excellent job! Kudos MR

by steeler junky on Jan 27, 2010 8:12 AM EST reply actions  

In My Dream

I’m in a hot and sweaty scene with Fergie. Football has nothing to do with it.

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Jan 27, 2010 9:07 AM EST reply actions  

at my age

she looks pretty good (and young). It is all about perspective sometimes.

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 28, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Did you follow the link to see the Fergie I was talking about? Need a nitro tablet yet?

When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen

by 5020 on Jan 28, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha, I did follow link, then i googled

Apparently she has a history of peeing herself on stage. odd.

by SteelersVT on Feb 1, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice Article MR...

I assume you read through that rather large thread of draft comments that occurred in the front page article yesterday. A couple of us, myself included, got into a big debate over BPA and “need” based drafting. I completely agree with yours and “Colberts” assessment on the proper approach to the draft. And I am sure something similar to this actually occurs.

Only thing I disagreed with:

Well, we start by ranking each of 12 positions in order of need, from 1 to 12. This year it is OT, CB, G/C, ILB, S, DT, DE, RB, WR, OLB, TE, QB.
But I guess us assuming what the team doesn’t and does need is purely speculation to what they think. Sort of like how many of us thought OL in previous drafts and the Steelers didn’t grab those until later rounds. We shall see though, I personally would be surprised if the first pick is not defense based on this draft class and our needs.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 9:18 AM EST reply actions  

Actually Johnny I read some of it, but then was engrossed in writing the dream thing and didn’t catch all of it. I’m sure it overlaps quite a bit.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 27, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Either way

I am glad you wrote this article. It is excellent.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, the ranking of positions from 1 to 12 is a stretch. Maybe they have three groupings, high need, medium need and low need…Whatever, I just really hope they account for need more than the strong BPA folks believe.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 27, 2010 9:22 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed!

We’ve been on the same page on everything since the end of the season.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree there

First of all this is probably the best piece of sportswriting that I’ve read all year — very well done!

I’ve tried to get these points across so many times without a tenth of the elegance with which you explain them.

On the needs, I think Percentages are the way to go. mutiply position need % versus player efficiency% and you get the draft board in short order.

After you pick somebody, you change a number in the spreadsheet and you get a new draft board.

the one other thing I suspect is a slight forward look to see if you’ll see good value later in the draft.

EG. If you say top needs this year are OL, CB and NT, then when picking at #1 you should perhaps evaluate the chances of filling those needs in later rounds. This way you can account for scarcity and make a slight reach if the circumstances dictate.

by Steely McSmash on Jan 27, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Trading down

Personally, I favor the BAP philosophy. However, BAP must also include trading down. Since the Steelers are comfortable with their situation at quarterback they don’t have to draft a QB even if he is the BAP on their board when it is their turn to pick. However, they should trade down and recoup the value of the pick instead of reaching for another player.

by hritzm31608 on Jan 27, 2010 10:03 AM EST reply actions  

Everyone would agree with this, except that trading down is harder than you think. Otherwise every team would be trading down and it doesn’t happen that often.

BPA with need factored in is how pretty much every team drafts. There just isn’t a much smarter way to do it. Taking the BPA only approach, you could theoretically end up drafting 7 RBs in the same draft. It’s just not how it is done.

by Cols714 on Jan 27, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

If you were our coach and draft guru

We’d have a football team full of QBs.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we tried the 11 TE offense, maybe it’s time to give the 11 QB offense a look.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 27, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The question is

how many balls would be allowed on the field?

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

2 each

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I've sometimes thought when watching some players

that they had a lower limit than that

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 27, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

ouch!

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill

by PixburghArn on Jan 27, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Tommara Brady takes his off before games...

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey there would be no need for offensive linemen

1st round 2 time SB winning QB gets hurt you just put in another 1st rounder.

Steelers football is 60 mins.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 27, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Now that wasn't nice

If you were our coach and draft guru, you would endorse passing on Chris Johnson because your need was at defensive back.
BAP is the way successful teams do it.

by hritzm31608 on Jan 27, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said you pick only on need basis

You assumed that. I said, like MR alluded to in this article, that you have to consider need when picking by BPA. That was my entire reason behind saying it would be absolutely absurd and a waste of a pick if the Steelers drafted a QB, unless it was a very late pick.

Yesterday, I also mentioned it would be pointless for the Steelers to draft a TE over a DB or MLB because that TE is just a little bit better of a player. It makes no sense when you desperately need a DB or MLB in the next year, but could go without drafting a TE.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

No

You said that you could find a serviceable back in later rounds. Sure take the serviceable player, I’ll take the game changer.

by hritzm31608 on Jan 28, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Unless he is like the RB version of Hines Ward

and clears a lane for himself by the sheer force of his super powers. Then we could have the distinction of having the league’s “dirtiest” WR AND the league’s “dirtiest” RB…

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 28, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I hang my head in shame

to even think about it. (NOT!)

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 28, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you watch the Steelers play prior to this year? Go review some of Willie Parker’s game tape and tell me you cannot find a good RB outside of the first round.

You take your game changer and I will take the defensive players to stop your one talent.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 28, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that the talent curve is shallow for RB’s, but if Chris Johnson was running behind our line, I think he’d do just fine. He’s like Willie Parker, only he knows where to run and how to catch.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 28, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s irrelevant though. We had the chance to take CJ and we passed. So, in our eyes, he wasn’t BPA, probably because he isn’t a power back. I haven’t seen Johnson block but I’d assume Mendy is ten-fold better at picking up the blitz. It is what is though.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 28, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is that, yes, valuable running backs exist outside of the first round, but the most valuable ones still tend to go early, and there is a significant difference in talent, value, and versatility, albeit slighter than some other positions, between the best RB’s and the average ones.

Despite having Mendenhall, our RB situation is uncertain, and if we want to be able to run the ball in the playoffs next year, we had better have another back in the fold. Keeping WP, signing a FA, drafting a middle rounder, or picking C.J. Spiller in the first will each affect the quality of a player we will need to count on at some point, as well as affecting the quality of players at other positions.

If we think Spiller is more likely to become an impact player than Dan Williams, Mike Iupati or whoever else, I think we’d be foolish to pass him up. He’ll get on the field.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 28, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

How many teams in the league have two first round RBs on their roster? Mendenhall is a good back who just needs to be taught how to approach contact. Even with a bad line, a pass first OC, and even tho he didn’t start the first 3 or so games of the season got 1,000 yards and a above average ypc. With a better OL and a few minor alterations in his game Mendy can be a “game changer”, IMO.

I just don’t see a RB being able to be as big of an impact player as a DB, OL, MLB, or NT next year.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 28, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

"How many teams have two first round RBs on their roster?"

Not trying to prove or disprove anybody, I just found that question interesting. Here’s what I came up with:

Indianapolis (Joseph Addai, Doanld Brown)
Miami (Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams)
New England (Fred Taylor, Lawrence Maroney)
Cincinnati (Larry Johnson, Cedric Benson)
Carolina (Jonathan Stewart, DeAngelo Williams)

Two that came very close:
Seattle (Julius Jones, Edgerin James [Released halfway through the season])
Chicago (Matt Forte, Kevin Jones [Either released or IR’ed and did not play this year])

Like I said, not trying to argue this either way, but I found it interesting and there were actually more than I thought. If I missed one, my bad, I was going off memory.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

*Donald Brown

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

So 5

And look three is no real correlation to anything there. Two very good run offenses, two awful, and one above average. Also, 3 of them just have a veteran balanced with a young guy.

Also interesting is that of those 5, 3 made the playoffs. And two of those made it on the arm of their QB and Cinci I would say made it because of their defense, but that can be argued.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 28, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree to taking Spiller or Dan Williams, if the FO deems them not just more, but signicantly more, of an impact player than the guard from Iowa. But if Spiller and Williams are considered A+++ players, and the Iowa kid is an A++, then I want the O-lineman. The difference in impact would be razor thin, while the difference in our need would be much greater. It’s not just one player or the other, whoever’s better, take him. To me you have to ask three questions: Who is a better player? How much better? And how does that difference weigh against whatever need we may or may not have with the positions involved?

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 28, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

No Spiller, thank you

The Steelers definitely need to improve their RB depth, but not with a first-round draft pick. I don’t care how good Spiller is, it’s too much of an investment for a half-position/depth player who is only two months younger than your starter and would probably be making more money. You simply would not be able to keep both of them for a second contract, if they both play up to their first-round status, and both of them might be so unhappy at split duty that they both want to leave. Chicago ended up with neither Jones nor Benson, and Carolina is going to have a hard time keeping Williams and Stewart, even if they decide they can afford both. Spiller is not the next Chris Johnson. He’s elusive and fast but not nearly as physical. Johnson is not only fast, he is a tough kid who takes on tacklers and often wins the collisions. He’s better than Mendenhall but he’s also two years older, more refined as a runner and also takes some hellacious hits. Let’s see where they both stand two years from now.

by steeler.lifer on Jan 29, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

OK Then

If we’re not taking a running back in the first round for the reasons you mentioned, and we’re not taking a quarterback, and we’re not taking a tight end, and we’re not taking a wide receiver, then need is obviously playing a major role in our decision.

People who lean toward BPA think the need people exagerate need, and people who lean toward need think the BPA people exagerate BPA. That’s natural. We’re all on the need-BPA continuum in varying places. None of us really knows and all of us want to be the fly on the wall.

But I also think the BPA extremists are mis-led by Colbert coming out and singing the BPA fight song every year. The first thing they teach you in GM school, for a variety of reasons, is to stick closely to the BPA company line to keep the waters calm and your cards well-hidden.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 29, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Titans offensive line

Is lightyears better than ours and their offensive philosophy is entirely bsed on the run. He wouldn’t do much behind our line in our O. Nothing more than Mendenhall at least.

Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)

by Michael Bean on Jan 28, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Well yeah, because of the blocking scheme

NO runner, outside of The Great One (B. Sanders) could do very well without a power blocking scheme.

IMO, if this new line coach can get them back to power blocking, Mendenhall could very well be considered for the Offensive PotY award next season.

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 28, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't need a power blocking scheme...

Lots of players have done well in a zone blocking scheme. You just have to have the players to fit a zone scheme. Denver did it for years, Houston runs it well enough, Atlanta had a few good years zone blocking (I think). The players just have to fit the scheme your implementing, which in our case, I don’t think they did.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 29, 2010 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

My original comment was a jab in good fun. Not meant to be mean-spirited.

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Jan 27, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Great piece, MR.

But we here wouldn’t expect anything less. I once had a dream that the Steelers had become a finesse, passing team. Oh, wait ….

by datruth4life on Jan 27, 2010 10:39 AM EST reply actions  

Last night I had the strangest dream

I sailed away to China

The only managing Ben does is he manages to WIN games

by chewiesteeler on Jan 27, 2010 11:22 AM EST reply actions  

My dreams involve the things I enjoy most....

Donuts (is there anything they can’t do?), the Land of Chocolate, Duff Beer (you have a Duff, I’ll have one too!) and the ever elusive floor pie.

These are a few of my favorite things.

I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson

by Homer J. on Jan 27, 2010 11:27 AM EST reply actions  

Oh god! "OOH! Floor Pie!" Is one of my favorite oddball sayings

Another one is “OOH! Cake!” (from Clerks 2)

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

But the dog got the floor pie.....

…and I was somehow left hanging there. D’oh!

I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson

by Homer J. on Jan 27, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

That was the

“Science Project” episode, wasn’t it?

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe Lisa's science project was entitled....

“Is my father dumber than a gerbil?” or something like that.

I never did figure it out.

I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson

by Homer J. on Jan 27, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Thought that was

“Is my brother dumber than a gerbil?” She wired a cupcake to a car battery. (buzz) “Oh a wise guy, eh?” (buzz)

"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods

by Steel Spike on Jan 27, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Right you are...

…guess my mind is addled by too many Sprink-a-licious donuts. Oh, well. I imagine I’ll be nodding off soon, in the Land of Sleep – another favorite dream of mine.

I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson

by Homer J. on Jan 27, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Draft strategy

I agree with “Colbert” that there is a balance, but I think the role of need is grossly overblown by us fans. No, we don’t need a QB in the first. However, if Colbert really had Mankins/Roos ranked higher than Miller, then he should have taken the OL.

Need based drafting has less to do with which positions have the biggest need and more to do with which positions have the least need. It’s just about impossible to have 5 great OL’s, and even then the chance that one will get injured, old, or rich somewhere else means that a young OL will get the chance to contribute very quickly.

Even without the benefit of hindsight, there was enough uncertainty with every member of our OL to see that there would soon be a need there: Starks hadn’t started a game yet. Oliver Ross was gone. Simmons just missed a whole season. Hartings was getting older. Smith had already had some injury problems. I’ll give them a pass for not knowing the OG market was about to blow up the following year and make Faneca unsignable.

I like Miller, and he’s been very productive for us over his career, but I’m not convinced that our “need” for a TE should have had trumped our general and constant need for standout OL’s. This is all hypothetical anyways, but my point is that with the exception of positions where the players may not see the field for 3-4 years (for us QB, TE, and maybe OLB), the impact of needs should be a very small factor.

I would say for us that specific needs at CB, DE, NT, ILB, S, or OL should only impact rankings in rounds 1-3 to break a tie between two essentially equal players. I would slightly devalue TE’s and WR’s and only take one if I really liked him more than anyone else available (unlikely in this draft IMO). If an OLB was the best player left, that would be a tough one. I’d probably take him unless there was a close player in a position of more need. I wouldn’t take a QB in the first 2, maybe 3 rounds, regardless of quality.

As far as trading down, depending on how much I like who is left, I would listen to offers from teams targeting a specific player, which may or may not come. I wouldn’t trade down just for the sake of trading down, because we’d probably lose more value in the process than just picking the guy we like most for our team, even if they were a bit of a stretch.

If you want an example of a good time to pick for need, I’d look at the Timmons pick. The board was complete shit after Revis got picked, and I don’t think we got any great offers to trade down. All of the players were roughly the same, so we picked the one we liked at a position we probably needed most (other than maybe OL, which was an even worse value). Another time to pick for need is late in the draft when the differences between players are minimal and if you pick a player at a deep position, he’s unlikely to make the team. Humpal, Mundy, and Harris were all pretty decent picks for this reason, while a WR after round 4 would probably be a wasted pick for us this year.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 27, 2010 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

HA! HAA!

The joke’s on all of you. I, not any of you, am in deed and in fact Kevin Colbert’s Assistant and I and I alone have his confidence, I and I alone……what? Time for my med’s already?

by Marvin, The Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2010 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

Great Stuff

Whether you believe in need or BPA. I think its easy to say that the Steelers do a great job in the draft. I can’t wait to see what they have cooked up.

As much as I love for them to trade up and get Rolando McClain, I wonder what that would mean for Keayron Fox. He is a good backup ILB who might be able to start. Maybe if James Harrison’s age shows you move Timmons to OLB and promote Fox/Frazier (who ever earns it) with McClain to ILB, that wouldn’t be too bad. Just thinking. I agree with maryrose though, you have to draft both, BPA while considering need, and if the jackpot falls to a reasonable trade up position, you pull the trigger.

Steelers football is 60 mins.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 27, 2010 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

My dreams

are like this though. I had a dream where everything was in spanish. I was talking fluently, and it was like my normal day except everything was in spanish. Very Weird.

Steelers football is 60 mins.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 27, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

great job at drafting

I agree the front office and coaching staff evaluate talent extremely well. Not only do the evaluate talent well they do an even better job of judging character of players. The players we draft fit the system and the character of the org. The unity of the team is unbelievable and in my opinion unmatched. After losing 5 games in which they played hard all but one game (Cleveland) they stayed as one united front until the end and had a chance to win four of the five. The Colts and the rest of the AFC are glad our boys did not make it. Despite our opinion of need as fans. If the Steelers had made it to the playoffs we would have had a great chance of winning our seventh SB trophy. I look forward to draft weekend and I do not have ANY concerns because of our history. Keep doing what you are doing Colbert and Tomlin! All we NEED is to let that happen and we will be just fine.

by trusteelfan on Jan 27, 2010 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you

the stupidity was killing me.

by 13thieves on Jan 27, 2010 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

Or more clearly

The misconceptions about what Best Available means was killing me. Hopeful this post will clear that up.

by 13thieves on Jan 27, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

My dream was better.

The Steelers drafted 7 HOFers in 2010.
FS CB/KR/PR NT ILB DE
LT C

If you buy a foreign made product you give money to a person who will not be buying an American made produdt that you get paid to make. Think about it next time you're at the store.

by SNW on Jan 27, 2010 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Pat Kirwan said G Iupati reminded him of a young Alan Faneca ...

that can also play tackle, maybe even some LT in a pinch. With that endorsement, he might be in my top 2 along with Rolando McClain. NT Dan Williams is still in the mix for my no. 1 pick as well.

by datruth4life on Jan 27, 2010 1:43 PM EST reply actions  

Faneca also played a little LT in a pinch

For eight games in 2003, he shifted from LG to LT to fill in when Marvell Smith was injured.

by Steelin on Jan 27, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

When I talk to Kevin we also mention...

I love the ideas here MR. I think a smart draft is done as logically and pseudo-scientifically as possible. Thus attaching equations to the need of a position versus over all talent of the position is very interesting to me. A few additions.

1. What is the talent pool at that position? If there’s a lot of great CBs than it lessens the overall value of a CB.
2. Does everyone share your view of a player? If I grade someone an 1st rounder but know everyone else will grade them at a 3rd at best than I wait until the 2nd to draft him.

by Chicago Steeler on Jan 27, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

Here I dreamt I was an architect...

Sorry, Decembrists on in the backround, and it went with the theme so… yeah.

Great idea, and a great post MR. You made the point in a way almost anyone could comprehend.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 27, 2010 3:17 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, by the way...

Anyone who hasn’t heard anything by Colin Meloy (Tarklo, The Decembrists, his solo stuff) you’re missing out.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 27, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

*Decemberists

Fingers are quicker than the brain today.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 27, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

any particular album I should go for?

I dig on the decemberists already but haven’t heard any of his other stuff.

by Chicago Steeler on Jan 27, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not certain. It is buried somewhere with all my other cd’s (I use my mp3 player or pc for music) but it may be Outcasts and Castaways (iirc).

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 27, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Castaways and Cutouts...

Which is in my CD player right now. It’s got “Here I Dreamt I was an Architect” on it, as well as “A Cautionary Tale”, which I find to be just as funny as creepy (maybe not the right word.. eery? It’s got an unmistakeable sound, let’s put it that way.).

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 28, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ve had light exposure to the Decembrists. I liked their song on Dark was the Night, but then I heard an NPR interview which made them sound like pompus assholes (not that anyone on World Cafe comes off sounding any different) and listened to some annoying political song of theirs (like the 50 millionth knock on Bush – wait, Bush was a shitty president and the war was a huge mistake? That’s the first time I heard that…). I know a lot of people love them, but I don’t know if I’ll even be able to judge their music fairly going forward.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 27, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Crane's Wife is a good album

I haven’t been corrupted to them by either hearing them talk or seeing their politics stuff, but I really enjoy that album.

by Chicago Steeler on Jan 27, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Never heard any interviews, just dig the music...

But I’m not really surprised. The name The Decemberists is fairly political itself (Russian revolt in 1800’s I think). Understandable though, you can only take so much of that stuff, which is why sites like this are a welcomed escape.

'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin

by NYSteelersFan4 on Jan 28, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the Crane Wife is a good place to start. But all of their albums are pretty great. Listen to Picaresque as well.

by Cols714 on Jan 28, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Just wiki'd them

I’m pretty sure “Sixteen Military Wives” is the song that made me roll my eyes.

I usually do my music screening by typing the band into YouTube and clicking the first link. That strategy may have led me astray in this case. I also make a point to turn off NPR when they interview musicians, but I was like, “Hey, I’ve heard of them AND they’re not a banjo artist from Nigeria”.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Jan 28, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t care one way or the other about the politics, but 16 military wives is a pretty good song.

by Cols714 on Jan 28, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

What a fabulous summary

of so much NPR programming:

"Hey, I’ve heard of them AND they’re not a banjo artist from Nigeria"

I’m going to treasure that one…

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 28, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

What I learned from these comments is:

there is a very good reason Kevin Colbert is paid to do what he does

by klompus on Jan 30, 2010 12:23 AM EST reply actions  

+1

"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin

by Rebecca Rollett on Jan 30, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 more

"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight

by John Stephens on Feb 1, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

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