Round 2 - Where's the justice Mr. Goodell (HR Perspective)? First Ben, now Deebo
Well, I am going to give this another try even though I am not a "normal" contributor so I will probably get ripped because I post in the wrong spot or something. Regardless, I have been personally interested in Roger Goodell's actions concerning discipline from a human resources perspective.
Part I - Violating Working Rules
Goodell is using HR rhetoric as his basis for handling these situations (i.e. violating The Personal Conduct policy). He is essentially referring to the "working rules" section of the NFL employee handbook and stating a player has violated a working rule just as you or I might face at any of our respective companies.
I do not wish to belabor the Big Ben suspension, but was irritated by the suspension when it was levied given the fact Ben was neither convicted nor formally charged with anything unlike Braylon Edwards, Cedric Benson, Vince Young, so on and so forth as we have all discussed endlessly. The original Personal Conduct Policy was enacted late 2006/early 2007 and focused on criminal activity (see sample of policy from old ESPN article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2798214) and then case interpretations led to the current, more hazy interpretation of harmful activity (see updated ESPN post from April 2010: http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/21598/nfl-personal-conduct-policy#comments).
Now, Old Man Farve will probably get off with a stiff talking to about sending inappropriate pictures. If that is the case, as a privately held corporation/trade association that is subject to national labor laws like any other corporation, the NFL would be running a risk of establishing inconsistent progressive discipline strategy. Apparently, a national business periodical (Forbes) feels the same way . . . http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2010/10/13/roethlisberger-farve-and-the-nfls-personal-conduct-policy/ (I also find the union/collective bargaining commentary in this article interesting).
Legally, I'm sure a lawyer can explain why their situations (Ben's & Brett's) are different and therefore not subject to the same discipline, but the NFL is still beginning to establish a line of inconsistent enforcement of rules.
Part II - Disciplinary Actions & The Investigative Process
Now, moving on to James Harrison - Goodell/the League is also stating there was a violation of working rules (in a basic sense) that results in a need for disciplinary action to "improve performance" (as a normal company might state). However, Deebo was not the only "employee" to violate the exact same working rule in the exact same manner (i.e. Robinson & Merriweather). However, for a seemingly similar violation, Deebo recieves a $75,000 fine for a hit that was while the two other individuals only received $50,000 fines.
HR policies primarily focus on establishing consistent, documented practices to ensure "the company" handles violations in a similar manner. Whenever there is a violation, common practice is to conduct an investigative process that begins with fact finding, interviewing the employees involved, documenting everything along the way, and then determining discipline based on the facts.
In this situation you have three seemingly identical "violations". I would be very interested to learn the quantitative measures that were implemented and the investigative process that the NFL used to determine and justify why Deebo's hit was $25K more valuable than the others. Watching all three hits, I would have an incredibly hard time pinpointing FACTS that differentiate a difference. Some might say he established "a pattern" after the hit on Cribb's earlier, but that was a legal hit that was not a violation of working rules or subject to discipline. To use this would be the same as heresay or speculation if you are conducting a factual investigation.
Conclusion
Regardless of how you personally feel about Big Ben or Deebo, if the commish or "the company" is going to discipline on a violation of policy, an investigative process that focuses on facts, and punishment should be consistent for ALL employees. . . at least, that would be how you have to legally apply it at any normal company. From a policy standpoint, this appears to be an extremely inconsistent application of rules and, if it was my company, I would be ethically upset. And, well, I am ethically upset as a fan of the game (not just of the Steelers).
73 comments
|
Add comment
|
15 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Is that the image we give off?
Well, I am going to give this another try even though I am not a “normal” contributor so I will probably get ripped because I post in the wrong spot or something.
I think we’re pretty open to new people joining up and contributing, just as long as they do it somewhat correctly.
Xbox Live Gamertag - IMIeursault currently MW2 and Madden 11.
Official BTSC representative in the Xbox Live Online Franshise 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/user/infamousxBouncers sub to it for commentary's of the games in the online franchise aswell as other Madden and Call of Duty gameplay.
by Josh Roberts (ESGB) on Oct 21, 2010 2:14 AM EDT reply actions
"Is that the image we give off?"
The Posting Evaluation Committee is fully operational these days.
"I don't want to injure anybody," James Harrison said. "But I'm not opposed to hurting anybody."
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
yes it is
And why I’ve reminded some folks and mods to be more welcoming.
Great post.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on Oct 21, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it is the image given off by a few
I love being the most-hated guy here. I love beating them while [their fans] are flicking me off. --Hines Ward
He's spot on about the "ripping" people get for posting places.
He wouldn’t say it if he didn’t feel it, and reading the rest of his post makes you think that, yeah, he may just be pretty well educated. Not to mention, writes better and uses grammar more proficiently than do most of the posters here.
If you really want to get pissed at someone, don’t get pissed and cranky about people posting in the wrong places; rather, get pissed at people who have no clue about the difference between “were” and “we’re” and “where,” or the use of “irregardless,” (not even close to being an actual word), or the use of extraneous quotations, or when a player “resigns.” Last I checked, that means they quit playing ball. Apparently, most people here think it’s when you get “re-signed.”
Just saying. But he’s right….the “Posting Place Nazis” exist here in full force. And they don’t even get paid for it.
I'll be hiking the Pacific Crest Trail from May, 2011 to Sept., 2011, to raise money for charity. Please visit: http://thf2.wordpress.com for more info.
by Fifty-Eight on Oct 22, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
their & there....hate that
but not as much as I hate when someone says, “Hey, come over to are house.”
[bangs head]
Some people think football is a matter of life and death...I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
-Bill Shanky
by Blitz-burgh on Oct 23, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm afraid that if we start requiring perfect grammar,
spelling, and punctuation, we’ll eliminate everyone on this board. Speaking as a grammar fiend who used to make my kids look up words they used incorrectly in the unabridged version of the Oxford English Dictionary, I say maybe we should all try to ignore stuff like that. And if you bang your head over someone’s egregious error (as I have been known to do) please do it gently, because otherwise you might get a fine from SB Nation, at least if Roger Goodell hears about it. And while we’re at it, maybe you can all excuse my excessive use of ellipses…
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 23, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
OED - hahaha
I also have the Oxford English Dictionary. unabridged, and the magnifying glass that comes with it. I have referred to it often. I also was taught to write down any word I did not understand whenever I read a book, and then to look the word up in the dictionary. The best way to increase your vocabulary is to read.
I love being the most-hated guy here. I love beating them while [their fans] are flicking me off. --Hines Ward
If I get fined....
I’m going to sit down and have a serious conversation with the owner of this blog. tomorrow and see if I can actually post in BTSC by SB rules and still be effective…….If not, I may have to give up posting.
I really truly hope it’s something that can be done, but the way that things were being explained to me today and the reasoning for it, I don’t feel I can continue to post and be effective and, like I say, not have to worry about hurting someone’s feelings or risking getting my own hurt.
-——————————————————————————————————————-
Some people think football is a matter of life and death...I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
-Bill Shanky
by Blitz-burgh on Oct 23, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I can read type-o
Doesn’t bother me too much. I know I often type quickly and miss some mistakes I make. My brain works faster than my fingers.
But one of my biggest pet peeves is “could of” ummm, it’s could HAVE.
:)
I love being the most-hated guy here. I love beating them while [their fans] are flicking me off. --Hines Ward
irregardless is a word
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
by John Stephens on Oct 24, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
So is ain't
But it’s a grammatically incorrect word.
Some people think football is a matter of life and death...I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
-Bill Shanky
by Blitz-burgh on Oct 24, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I did not say it was grammatically correct. I was just saying it incorrect to say it is “not even close to a word”.
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
by John Stephens on Oct 24, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
it is*
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
by John Stephens on Oct 24, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Seano, thanks for the perspective
In the future please place contributions of this sort in the fanpost section. It is worthy of the greater exposure.
Oops, my bad. It IS a fanpost.
Sorry, keep it up. I look forward to more of your contributions, rec’d.
Well played, sir
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 21, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
This was a GREAT post Seano95!
You have a lot of patience to spell all of this out. The discipline against the Steelers this year has been very inconsistent and has not been supported by any precedents. That’s why it’s so frustrating. You try to explain that to fans of other teams and they just laugh and point and say ‘rapist rapist’ or ‘put the animal in a cage’.
I appreciate your rational, professional opinion on the matter.
As an example of how reactionary this week’s nonsense was, don’t they usually put out the fines on Thursdays after they’ve had time to review hits around the league thoroughly? Why was this week different? I don’t get it.
"I don't want to injure anybody," James Harrison said. "But I'm not opposed to hurting anybody."
"It was an attrition football game and you know we like that."
don’t they usually put out the fines on Thursdays
more-so that’s usually the i’m safe day, if you will… its typically, if you don’t hear by the end of the day thursday your safe, but the fines come out all throughout the week before that, depending on how stern they feel they need to be…
that all looks kind of scatter brained above, hope you understand what i’m getting at, flu meds making me dizzy….
Very interesting post,
And thanks for all of the helpful links
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 21, 2010 8:52 AM EDT reply actions
Oh, and rec'd
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 21, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Good post
I said the same things about Ben – how does he get suspended 6 games on innuendo (no charges, no DNA) and other players get convicted and get slapped on the wrist. If Farve sends lewd pics of himself to multiple employees and gets nothing…grrr.
The thing that bugs me about Harrison’s hit is that Massachappaquiddick :) ducked his head! As much as Harrison, he caused any helmet contact. If this is going to be a point of emphasis, why not teach your “defenseless receivers” to duck their heads in hopes of drawing the penalty.
Goodell is more concerned with image than fairness and that’s the kind of shit that WILL come back to bite him in the ass. He’s inconsistent and that’s a horrible thing for football.
Excellent and informative post
Well written and informative. No violation of the BTSC personal conduct policy here. Well done sir, well done.
"...and that you can print!.... Jeff Bebe "Almost Famous"
by OhioYinzer on Oct 21, 2010 9:31 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Lucky for him
or there would have been a suspension and a big fine.
Oh, wait, Michael Bean runs this, not Roger Goodell…
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 21, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure ya have...
He’s the british guy with the tiny car and bowtie that carries around a teddy bear!
Some people think football is a matter of life and death...I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
-Bill Shanky
by Blitz-burgh on Oct 21, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Post 95
Keep them coming and NEVER let some of the elite on the site make you think twice about posting. This is still a free country. Rec!
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
This post
is unnecessary and out of place… lol
Steelers football is 60 mins. The final 15 have been re-constructed with re-enforced steel and ready to withstand punishment and deal out some itself. HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 21, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
What's really sad
is that people sitting behind a computer screen can actually think that being “elite” on a blog is of any actual value whatsoever. It’s amazing. To self-build an ego and add to the length of one’s self perceived e-peen by being a poster longer than someone else, and ripping others for being new to the site and not knowing the etiquette, is quite pathetic. They consider themselves entitled because they’ve been a member of a blog longer? Are you kidding? If they had a real life and knew what common courtesy was when dealing with other people, maybe they wouldn’t be so pitiful. But that’s probably the problem, no one in real life can stand them, so they simply can’t learn that concept.
"I don't want to see anyone injured, but I'm not opposed to hurting anyone" - James Harrison
by LifelongSteelerFanInVa on Oct 24, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
My understanding is that the NFL and NFL properties is a privately held company.
If the employees want to contest the matter, it is their prerogative, just like it’s the NFL’s prerogative to subjectively interpret the rules.
Great post
This was very well laid out and explained. You defended your points very well with intelligence and facts.
Things can always be worse....
Steelers are on the NFL's radar screen for sure.
As long as we keep winning, they’ll try to make examples of our players (in negative ways). You’re right that it’s unfair, but unfortunately that’s just the way it is. If we sucked, nobody would care what our players did.
Perhaps
it is a secret plot in search of parity. How dare our team be outstanding? Off with their heads! (A possibly unfortunate metaphor, given the circumstances…)
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 21, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the "us against the world" mentality
Just makes it that much sweeter when we beat them all.
"SteelFever gets #93. Just like Ron Artest. Great game just keep an eye on him that he doesn't go into the stands after a fan."
- 5020 on my making the BTSC active (riot) squad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC0NCHq4v3I
quality post
gj.
Do we really want to go there?
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
Not even sure we have three "seemingly identical violations"...
A lot of commentary has outlined already how the Merriwether hit was more egregious than the other two (three if you count situations).
"I am a sinner who does not expect forgiveness, but [Thank God] I am not a government official" Francis Wolcott in "Deadwood", Season 2
by Flying Polamalus on Oct 21, 2010 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
Actually, that is a very good point, and another item that would be identified if an investigative process had been followed. The case being, Merriweather was actually called for leading with his helmet (if I remember correctly) making the inconsistency even more disparaging. How is one who is actually penalized for “poor performance” subject to less discipline than an employee who was not penalized . . . you would need to have excellent documentation to prove that discrepancy!
Welcome to BTSC
Super first post! rec’d and appreciate your thoughts!
When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. Shut up and play!
Great Post!
Do you study/practice law?
"He was popping off down there the first time they were about to score. So you run your mouth, expect to get something. Everything's between the lines, so he got what he had coming. He was running his mouth and getting in the way of the train, and the train wasn't coming off the track."
-James Harrison on Kyle Orton
Employment Law
I work in the HR realm so I deal with employment issues on a regular basis. That’s what made me think it would be interesting to look at this situation as though the NFL was a “normal” company . . . I’m just glad some others found interest in it as well.
Oh yeah, totally
Lots of facts and details. Well done sir. :]
Chris Andersen could be in a porno with his 'stache. Too bad he still wouldn't know how to box out.
BTSC's little enforcer!
"God created a light, fluffy, white cake, named it "Angel Food Cake", and said, "It is good." Satan then created chocolate cake and named it "Devil's Food." -Tamera Mitchell-
Not even a Steelers fan/enemy
but this deserves a little gold star.
Tim Graham thinks Sanchez is an MVP Candidate. Seriously.
Nice work
I had avoided this post for a while cause I was tiring of the anti-goodell posts (i dislike his decisions as well, but think the horse is dead). But it was a boring friday and this has gotten a tremendous amount of Recs, so i opened it up. And I’m glad I did. it was a fresh take on the situation.
Sorry for the occasionally surly attitude us old-timers have to the new folk sometimes. This is a welcome reminder that first time posters can often bring up the best insights.
by Chicago Steeler on Oct 22, 2010 3:08 PM EDT reply actions
also as to Deebo getting 25K more levied against him...
I think the reasoning was not the additional Cribbs hit, but instead the previous times he’s been fined by the league for unnecessary roughness. This season he was fined for his pile driver on Vince Young.
So it’s kinda like an escalating scale of punishment. Only problem is that there’s no written down rule book on what leads to what. I’d like to see better documentation on the consequences rather than reactionary fines being levied.
by Chicago Steeler on Oct 22, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
Consistency has never been a strong suit of Goodell’s and I think it gets worse every time he has to handle one of the hot-button subjects in the NFL.
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
opinion from a less biased perspective
To be fair to the league, Ben was implicated multiple times in mis-conduct off the field. He deserved his suspension. Raping a woman or even being in the position to be implicated for raping a woman is unacceptable. I just dont see how you can argue he didnt deserve suspension just because he wasnt charged legally.
In the case of Mr. Harrison, Helmet to Helmet hits are dangerous to all involved in one. If thats the way he was taught to play the game, well then he was taught wrong. The point of playing football IS NOT to injure somebody. I cant believe how anybody would support a guy who says he wants to go out and hurt somebody. if thats the attitude he has, he needs to get the hell out of football. I hope it dosent take for him to injure a guy to the point that his life is ruined to realize that those hit are dangerous and should be avoided and not seeked.
I know that seems kind of harsh, but honestly if he changes the way he plays and tackles people the right way, then we have nothing more to talk about.
GO:Gators, Dolphins, Heat, Marlins, and Yankees
he who fears losing, has already lost
Josh Johnson for 2010 NL Cy Young!
Brandon Marshall is a Dolphin.....watch out World.
to supplement the big ben thing
I do believe Farve should be punished in some way or fashion
GO:Gators, Dolphins, Heat, Marlins, and Yankees
he who fears losing, has already lost
Josh Johnson for 2010 NL Cy Young!
Brandon Marshall is a Dolphin.....watch out World.
by Gatorfan4life on Oct 24, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
even being in the position to be implicated for raping a woman is unacceptable
That is a really awful policy to have. Any time you are with a woman you are in the position to be implicated in a sexual assault. The majority of us, who have gone over this topic a million times, believe it is a really dangerous path to start suspending people because of accusations. The problem with sexual assault cases is that they always become “he said/she said”. I just do not think it is fair to any player in the league if you start suspending people because of implications.
On Harrison, you are making bad leaps in logic. Harrison was not taught to hit people, helmet-to-helmet. That is not what he was saying. He was saying he was told to tackle the way he does and it is not his fault when the offensive player adjusts their body which causes the helmet to helmet hit. I think it is a really ignorant thought to believe that any defensive player goes out there and does not try to hurt their opponent. Do you really think your defenders are not thinking “I’m going to hit this guy hard so he thinks twice next time he comes into my zone”? They just were smart enough not to say it to the media.
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
by John Stephens on Oct 24, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe.
but i can guarantee you while they may think they want to hit him hard, they are not thinking “I want to injure him severely”
GO:Gators, Dolphins, Heat, Marlins, and Yankees
he who fears losing, has already lost
Josh Johnson for 2010 NL Cy Young!
Brandon Marshall is a Dolphin.....watch out World.
by Gatorfan4life on Oct 24, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you read what Harrison said or did you take it out of context? He never said he wants to injure players severely or at all. He even said the reason he goes above the legs on people is because if he starts tackling people low he is going to ruin their knees and end their careers.
"I'm from Maryland, and no one can beat me!"
by John Stephens on Oct 24, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough. i should re-read it.
he just dealt with this whole thing badly too. made me form more of a negative opinion. I mean contemplate retirement? really? you have to change the way you play? thats a load of crap. you just have to refrain from Helmet to Helmet hits. he just came off as a douche bag.
GO:Gators, Dolphins, Heat, Marlins, and Yankees
he who fears losing, has already lost
Josh Johnson for 2010 NL Cy Young!
Brandon Marshall is a Dolphin.....watch out World.
by Gatorfan4life on Oct 24, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No one ever said he was good with words.
I seriously think James was learning disabled. His odd statements over the years, difficulty in learning the game, and matter-of-fact decision style all point to this resounding, comfortable analysis.
I do believe he was sincere in his comments though
I think he seriously considered retiring.
"Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world."
Tommy Douglas
"Man can now fly in the air like a bird, swim under the ocean like a fish, he can burrow into the ground like a mole. Now if only he could walk the earth like a man, this would be paradise."
Tommy Douglas
"I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them."
Tommy Douglas
"Canada is like an old cow. The West feeds it. Ontario and Quebec milk it. And you can well imagine what it's doing in the Maritimes."
Tommy Douglas
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 28, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
the nfl is being run for long term survival, like any fortune 500 company
harrison, ben and favre are being made examples of. why? because the league is reacting to the new reality. information is too easy to get and your reputation can be destroyed overnite by doing stupid things.
harrison was fined before, so they made an example of him. he is just an employee and the league has a bigger issue than questionable hits. they are facing the issue of workplace safety and long term disability, they now know that a lot of former nfl players are now in wheelchairs and wearing diapers at age 40. we only see the former ones on espn, we don’t see the ones who can’t remember where they live b/c they have been concussed out of their minds. if the league does not take player health seriously then they could face a massive class action lawsuit from former players who gave the league their all but are now broke and can’t work because they are disabled. “they knew the risks” is not a solid defense for the nfl, just ask the tobacco companies how that worked out for them. this is what the league is facing long term and they are smart to make these decisions before something far worse comes along.
ben and favre are similar in one respect. they both made the league and themselves look bad. favre may be dumber than ben b/c he went after nfl employees. duh? everyone knows the first rule in the workplace, don’t “s*** where you eat.” the funny thing is he now says he sent the voice messages but is denying the photos. this may be a brilliant strategy b/c if this girl decides not to cooperate then he maintains his rep, sort of. if it is found out that the voice mails and photos came from the same phone # then he’s screwed anyway. he loses wrangler and all the other companies b/c if this girl did not ask him to send the photos or lead him on then it is clearly sexual harrassment. almost any employee in the country including the CEO would be fired if they did this and someone complained. he won’t be charged b/c the staute of limitations but he will be toxic and he will probably get suspended. all he had to do was go after the many of girls not employed by the nfl who would have gladly slept with him. very stupid.
before the internet, it was easy to coverup information. now even the pentagon can’t keep their secrets, they are plastered all over wikileaks. as you read this i guarantee there are lawyers contacting former players about suing the nfl. and there are also employees who were sexually harrassed who are thinking about coming forward. many athletes believe they are above it all b/c that is what they have been told their whole life. ben and favre probably both believed they were above it all but they got called out and taken down a few notches.
I won't address
the majority of your post, but I will say that if any employee sent another employee inappropriate photos or photos described as “lewd”, they’d be fired regardless if the person received it didn’t ask…
this would be true
"Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world."
Tommy Douglas
"Man can now fly in the air like a bird, swim under the ocean like a fish, he can burrow into the ground like a mole. Now if only he could walk the earth like a man, this would be paradise."
Tommy Douglas
"I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them."
Tommy Douglas
"Canada is like an old cow. The West feeds it. Ontario and Quebec milk it. And you can well imagine what it's doing in the Maritimes."
Tommy Douglas
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 28, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I know this post has been up for awhile
Anyone know about the “NFL looking into it” (cough-horseshit-cough) glossing over of Titan’s Kenny Britt’s bar-fight incident??
Or are they going to just leave that up to “Competition Committee Member” Jeff Fisher to handle himself?
Again….. way to play fair Jagoff Goodell.
When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. Shut up and play!
+1
Some people think football is a matter of life and death...I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
-Bill Shanky
I have heard naught
"Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world."
Tommy Douglas
"Man can now fly in the air like a bird, swim under the ocean like a fish, he can burrow into the ground like a mole. Now if only he could walk the earth like a man, this would be paradise."
Tommy Douglas
"I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. There are monuments all over the Parliament Buildings and I've seen what the pigeons do to them."
Tommy Douglas
"Canada is like an old cow. The West feeds it. Ontario and Quebec milk it. And you can well imagine what it's doing in the Maritimes."
Tommy Douglas
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 28, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions

by 





























