Big Ben vs. "The Best Ever"
by Steelerfaninboston on Feb 8, 2010 12:04 AM EST
121 comments
After the Super Bowl tonight, Steve Young (one of my least favorite commentators) said now that Drew Brees has won a Super Bowl, he should be considered among the league's elite quarterbacks, right up there with Brady and Manning. Last year, this same "expert" argued that Ben Roethlisberger was not an elite quarterback, despite his two Lombardi trophies. Like any true Steelers fan, I was more than a little annoyed with this, so here's a little comparison between Ben and some of the best quarterbacks, not just of today, but of all time.
1. Super Bowl Championships: Forget personal statistics. The true measure of a quarterback is how many rings he has on his finger. Look at Ben compared to some of the best to ever play the game. Brett Favre has played in the league for eighteen years. In that time, Mr. Retirement has one Super Bowl win and one loss. Peyton Manning, the man who everyone has been calling "The Greatest QB of all time" this week, also has a 1-1 record in his twelve year career. Like Ben, Dan Marino made it to the Super Bowl in his second year, but unlike Ben, Marino lost that game and never led his team to the Super Bowl again. It took John Elway fourteen years and three losses before he won his first of two Super Bowls. Hall of Famer Jim Kelly was 0-4 in the big game. Joe Namath is justly famous for his Super Bowl three victory, but Namath played another eight years without ever getting his team back to the big game. In a distinguished ten year career, Roger Staubach was 2-2 in the Super Bowl. Bob Griese played for thirteen years, but the hall of famer was only 2-1 in the Super Bowl. In fact, Steve Young, the mouth who roared so loudly against Ben last year, led his team to only one Super Bowl win. Sorry, Steve, but you get no credit for the rings you got while watching Joe Montana. Finally, Drew Brees, who is a class act and a great player, has one super bowl now in his nine year career. Ben Roethlisberger won two super bowls in his first five years. Other quarterbacks, namely Montana, Aikman, and Bradshaw, have more rings, but frankly, I'll take that company, and besides, Ben isn't done yet.
2. Winning Percentage: Despite playing in the time of free agency, Ben Roethlisberger consistently wins. We're so used to Ben winning games that a season like this, where we "only" go 9-7 is a profound disappointment. If you look at current quarterbacks with at least fifty starts, only Tom Brady has a winning percentage higher than Ben's 71%. It seems like Manning goes 15-1 every year, but actually, his career winning percentage is only 64.4%. Favre's is only 62.5%, and Brees has won only 51.6% of his games. If you look at some of the all time greats, Joe Montana's winning percentage was 71.3% nearly identical to Ben's. Troy Aikman's winning percentage was only 56.9%. Namath won a paltry 49% of his games. Elway won 64% of his games, and Marino won 61.2% of his games. I know Ben has played only six years, but his winning percentage is on pace to be one of the greatest of all time. Even our beloved Terry Bradshaw, playing with the Steel Curtain defense and four other Hall of Famers on offense, won only 67.7% of his games.
3. Fourth Quarter Comebacks: When the chips are down, who do you want under center? John Elway has the most career fourth quarter comebacks with 47 in his 16 year career. Dan Marino is second with 37 in sixteen years. Montana had 31 career fourth quarter comebacks in 15 years. In just six years, Ben has nineteen career fourth quarter comebacks. If he plays as long as Marino and Elway, he has an excellent chance of beating both of their records.
Conclusion: Success in the NFL ultimately is about winning games. In these three categories that directly relate to winning games and winning championships, Ben Roethlisberger compares favorably to the greatest quarterbacks of all time. Steve Young, who won one championship, has a winning percentage of 65.7%, and brought his team back in the fourth quarter 14 times, needs to shut the hell up.
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You're godamn right he does!
Steve Young inherited a SB team from Smokin’ Joe. Jerry Rice, in his prime, could make Joey Harrington look good.
Benjamin VS. “The Best Ever”? That’s just Ben VS. Himself.
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 8, 2010 12:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha +1 on that last line
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 8:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a question
You say “like any true steelers fan, I was annoyed blah blah blah”. If I wasn’t annoyed, am I not a true Steelers fan?
by worldtrip on Feb 8, 2010 12:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That would be correct.
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by momma rollett on Feb 8, 2010 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So your argument here
Is that you don’t believe Ben is an elite QB?
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He might just not care what "opinionators" say
…just to give World the benefit of the doubt.
Open question: Name the commentators who you really take seriously?
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
none? Maybe Gruden
Jaworsksi occasionally…
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its tough
to find someone who is very rational, level-headed (but enthusiastic) and fair – not unbiased – just fair. I know if I pick one or two, someone else would probably disagree.
Unfortunately, those individuals don’t draw a lot of attention because of those qualities. Its the loud mouth egotistical boneheads who get us riled and talking about them, and arguing points which largely have no definitive resolution.
I think ‘None’ is my answer, but there are some guys I will pay attention to. Gruden would do himself a favor and not try and hype people too much, sell us the game we are watching, but it is a business for ratings.
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Johnny
Jaws can point out some things that I would otherwise miss. Gruden’s press box personality is refreshing.
by alfresco on Feb 8, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like them both too
My suggestion for Gruden was not really a criticism, just a minor improvement which is just my opinion.
Lord knows MNF sucked with Thiesman, Dierdorf, and then Kornhieser, I stopped tuning in until this year (unless it was the Steelers)…its nice that its listenable again
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever happened to Dennis Miller?
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 8, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see him on FOX News from time to time.
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to go on a rant here...
but I miss him commentating on games.
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 8, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ew...Cornholer....
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 8, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked him
But I think a lot of people couldn’t get him
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was that whole
“lowest common denominator” thing. Idiots don’t understand him, and the No Fun League need all the drooling masses to “get” the commentators.
Miller, being brilliant, was just too much for them (and probably Goodell as well).
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 8, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One time I heard Kornheiser say
“Plaxico? That rhymes with Glaxico.”
That did it for me.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He spent that MIA-PITT game
on a personal vendetta about Ricky Williams, and how could this pot smoking hippy even be allowed to play blah blah blah…..I mean on and on. get over it idiot.
Of course Joey Porter or somebody stepped on Ricky’s shoulder a little while later and knocked him out for the season, and i could hear the smirk on his face….that was that game when a punt basically planted into the turf at Heinz like a javelin and stuck there.
by Twell on Feb 9, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Papa
The only managing Ben does is he manages to WIN games
by chewiesteeler on Feb 9, 2010 8:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?
The mute button wasn’t enough for me. I had to change the channel, when his “What did you feel” face came on. I used to have HBO, just for the show…forgot the name of it, that had him, Chris Carter, Dan Marino and Chis Collinsworth on it. But could not take his drama any longer, and canceled HBO…but kept the cable!
: )
by alfresco on Feb 9, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Should of kept HBO...
I think they moved that show to Showtime :)
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 9, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The 20 minute where are they now
segments, about the Texans trainer’s assistant assistant assistant proved more than I could bear.
by alfresco on Feb 9, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure you and I
are talking about the same guy. Bob Papa is on NFL Network. Pretty sure he has never been on HBO.
The only managing Ben does is he manages to WIN games
by chewiesteeler on Feb 9, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The ridiculous thing is that hes only 27 years old
i like his chances of getting back to the super bowl at least 2 more times in the next 6 years
by GDEUCE on Feb 8, 2010 2:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
We need a great draft this year to get back to the SB
"People hate the Patriots because they cheat. People hate the Steelers because the Steelers are everything that they want their team to be."
Xbox Live Gamertag- Alf Ardanyu
by SoCalSteelerFan on Feb 8, 2010 4:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We need to stay healthy!
The draft will no doubt infuse good young talent with our team, but health is the biggest issue for us. Put a healthy A.Smith & Troy on that defense & we go 11-5!!!! We need to start looking for replacements for Farrior, A.Smith & Big Snack, but by no means do we need a great draft to get us back knocking on the door my friend. The nucleus is set for the next 5 yrs.!!!!!!! Ben, Santonio, Heath, Wallace, Reshard; Woodley, Timmons, TROY, Ike & Ziggy!!!
Your honor, I rest my case! LOL
"You never stand so tall as to when you reach down to pick someone up."
by Chise67 on Feb 8, 2010 6:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree!!!! We have got to do better job in the middle to late rounds for depth and competition in camp. Im with who ever found Wallace.
by R. on Feb 8, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
And Roethlisberger’s regular stats aren’t too shabby either. When I have more time I’ll firgure out how long it’ll take for Ben to surpass Bradshaw in numbers, but if he stays healthy it could be as early as within 3 years. The biggest obstacle Ben faces is injuries; he’s gotta throw the ball away a little more, just a little bit, to prolong his career in the NFL.
BTSC Obituaries
OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.
by HighSchoolSteeler on Feb 8, 2010 6:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Ben Is Still Getting Better!
The scary part of all this is that Ben is still getting better! And as far as putting Tom Brady’s winning percentage above Ben’s, Brady did all that with the knowledge of what the defensive calls against him were,(Spygate!), so they don’t really count! Or in the very least, should have the asterisk! Remember, one of those rings Tom got was by putting us out of the AFC Championship game! And for those who think it gave the Pats no advantage, I say look at what Gruden was able to do to the Raiders with T.B. in the SuperBowl. But alas, Ben is just what is considered an,“Ordinary Joe”, not with the super model girlfriend, the symmetrically “perfect” face for razor commercials, or of the pedigree from his dad playing in the NFL, so he won’t be the big market type for funny commercials. You’ll just have to settle for seeing him at WWF, boxing matches, & hoisting Lombardi’s! :-) How many QB’s you ever seen get the respect where they call him,“BIG”???? Say Big Ben, & EVERYONE knows who you mean, & we at Steeler Nation truly understand why!
"You never stand so tall as to when you reach down to pick someone up."
by Chise67 on Feb 8, 2010 6:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Big Ben doesnt get enough credit
You put Ben in last night’s Super Bowl, with 5 minutes left in the game, down by 7 and see what happens. That my friend is how you measure the greatness of a quarterback.
by SteelerMessican on Feb 8, 2010 8:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
A few more red zone TD and no complaints from me
by R. on Feb 8, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't overcomplicate the issue at hand...
A quarterback’s job is to throw the ball, and to do whatever it takes to keep the ball moving in an effort to put points on the board. It’s really that simple, we just like to make it about more than that. When you talk about who is the “best ______ ever” you’re always going to have different opinions on what it is that constitutes the best.
A Superbowl championship is a team accomplishment. No QB has ever won a Superbowl by himself… ever. No matter how much you want to argue that championships make the player, it’s not true (yes, championships make the player look better, and great player should be in position to win championships, but that’s it). Would anyone here take Trent Dilfer over Jim Kelly? How about Eli Manning over Dan Marino? Jim McMahon over Warren Moon? Why not, they have three Superbowl wins as compared to zero from the other group. You know why? Because the non-Superbowl winning QB’s were better players.
Winning percentage, is a true indicator of success, but doesn’t tell the whole story either. You think Joe Montana’s career win percentage was helped out by the players around him, maybe a little? A defense that continuously made plays with Ronnie Lott at corner early on and safety later, DE’s who always seemed to have 10+ sacks on a regular basis, and one of the best head coaches and coaching staffs ever? A great winning percentage is simply a very good indicator of a good/ great quarterback on a good/ great team with the right people around to make them successful.
Fourth quarter comebacks are a great indicator of who plays best in the big moments. But wouldn’t a really good QB have his team in position to win a game without a heroic comeback effort? And at the very least, wouldn’t a really good quarterback be in that unenviable position of marching down the field late to win a game less often as a result of their superior play earlier in the game?
I will ask two very loaded questions. Both of which are almost taboo in our world as fans. How many Superbowls would Peyton Manning have won with the Steelers Defenses that we’ve had over the course of his career? How many Superbowls would Dan Marino have won with any semblence of a defense to speak of in Miami, much less in Pittsburgh with the tail end of the Steel Curtain men and perhaps a Tom Moore calling plays? The answers will of course never be known, but my guess would be more than one combined.
Judge a quarterback simply by his ability to throw the ball and his ability to do what it tkaes to put his team in a position to win games… that’s it. It’s almost too simple I guess.
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 9:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nice try Peyton
Nice try
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha!
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How many SB would Ben have with those weapons?
I getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
by Steel in FL on Feb 8, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which weapons?
I talked about more than a few, which ones or type were you referring to?
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Peyton's Offensive weapons
Harrison, Clark, Faulk(only for one year but still) Edge, Wayne.
I getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
by Steel in FL on Feb 8, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you partly on the OL
They are pretty good, probably better than ours. We will never know though, because Ben’s and Peyton’s styles are so different. I definitely disagree on the receivers, at least now. Wayne is prob a bit better than Holmes, Ward is better than Garcon, Clark may get better offensive stats but he is absolutely no where near the blocker Heath is, I’d take our running backs over their running backs (at least since Ben has been here).
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and Collie and Wallace are both equally good.
"When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my a**!"
-Bobby Knight
by Johnny_S on Feb 8, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Personnel comparisons are tricky...
But, in this case I’d say they have been fairly equal in terms of talent. Keep in mind, Peyton’s career started in 1998. He would have played with Jerome Bettis for roughly seven seasons, followed by Willie Parker when Willie was F A S T fast. He would have been able to throw to a receiving crew of Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, and Antwaan Randle El early on (yikes), and Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes and Cedric Wilson/ Mike Wallace later on. I bet you Troy Edwards would have looked different with Peyton Manning slinging the rock as compared to Kordell Stewart too (as good as Slash was, it’s hard to deny the difference in passing prowess there).
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
(Hit post too early on accident!)
The major difference is in the O-Line. But Peyton’s ability to digest defenses and relay the info he gathers to his teammates is second to no one, maybe in any sport. The shortcomings in our line would be far less noticable with the greatest pre-play adjuster in the game telling the guys where to be looking. Now, in fairness, the line calls in Indy are aided by Jeff Saturday, (this guy never gets any credit) but can you honestly tell me Peyton can’t see those things too? Delegate down, as the commercial says.
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 8, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with NYSF4
Ben’s a great QB, no doubt, but you cannot rank QBs according to rings without attention to stats.
by 13thieves on Feb 8, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree too
He’s a great QB and certainly not recognized as much as he should be, but it’s not all about rings. Brett Farve is a great QB but his mistakes tarnish his image. I think the same happens to Ben. If he gets rid of the ball faster next year, has less sacks, and keeps interceptions down, people will have a hard time arguing he’s not in the elite ranks of NFL QB’s. Remember how much Bradshaw was trashed even after he won a superbowl? For now, it’s only us Steeler fans that understand how great he is, and that’s not a bad thing. I’d rather have substance over form any day.
by MyMilkshakes on Feb 8, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe more important is the performance of the QBs in ring winning efforts
because I think it’s pretty easy to run up yardage stats and the like when youre playing from behind the whole game and lose regardless
by klompus on Feb 8, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Montana with Peyton’s team would have beaten the Patriots.
In 2005, Montana would have beat the Steelers.
This year, Montana would have won the Super Bowl.
Peyton is great all the time, but he doesn’t have that ability the all-time greats have to step up at the biggest moment and will his team to victory.
Ben is the opposite of Peyton, he is inconsistent and just good a lot of the time. But if his team is in it at the end, he’s the guy who will find a way to win it.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 8, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think that this is an excellent analysis
of the difference between Ben and Peyton. I was watching Peyton yesterday after the pick 6, and it just took all the fight out of him. He seems to be very smart, very analytical, etc., but when the chips are down he seems to lose confidence in himself and his team. Ben is just the opposite – it often seems that adversity brings out his best effort and somehow settles him.
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by momma rollett on Feb 8, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Montana was definitely great
but a ball-magnent like Jerry Rice sure didn’t hurt either!
I wonder if Montana wins 4 SB w/o Jerry Rice?
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even without Rice Montana won one. The man found a way to win the big games.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 9, 2010 2:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's an often forgotten fact.
"One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preperation."
-Arthur Ashe
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 9, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben and Peyton, I think you nailed it too.
rec’d
by alfresco on Feb 9, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben is already among the elite QBs
And if he can add a few more tricks to his bag as he ages, he might be the best QB ever by the time he hangs em up. Having Ben is the reason why I favor bolstering our OL to the max, whether via the draft or through free agency.
by Billy52 on Feb 8, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
+14
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"the earth moves when Sean Payton walks...Because his balls are just that huge." Anarchon after Super Bowl XLIV
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Feb 8, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
nice, this is so true.
Steelers football is 60 mins.
by tannofsteel84 on Feb 8, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates= Oakland Raiders
is this a fair assessment
by PCISteeler on Feb 8, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
let's not associate
Pittsburgh and Oakland. How about Pirates = Detroit Lions?
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
1992 :(
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill
by PixburghArn on Feb 8, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and the Reds
Wanted to smack Chris Sabo’s rec-specs off his face…
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the only pirate game i've been to
is the Reds vs the Pirates at PNC. a couple of years ago. Great place to catch a game
by PCISteeler on Feb 8, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Been to a couple there....very nice place
Also had the opportunity to walk through the outfield when the stadium was being built. My oldest brother and I went out to Three Rivers for the last game there. Before the game we were walking around checking the scene. There was just a chain link fence and a security guard manning the entrance. He asked if we wanted to walk through. It was all just leveled dirt. Pretty cool…
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sweet
Great food great view but, terrible team. PNC is great
by PCISteeler on Feb 8, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Peyton Manning = Greg Maddux
Brett Favre = John Smoltz
by PCISteeler on Feb 8, 2010 3:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lots of homers I see
Just because Ben has had tremendous success so early doesn’t mean he’s automatically better than some of the best ever to play. You could argue that Joe Montana is the best ever cause of all the hardware.
Just because Marino never won a ring, does that make him less of a player?
Is Bradshaw better than everybody because of his rings?
Is Ben better than Brees just because he has two rings over Brees’ one?
A lot of it has to do with the team you’re on. To be honest Ben has been surrounded by a good/great team for most of his career. What if Ben had to constantly bail his team out because of a bad defense like Peyton had to do earlier in his career?
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 4:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think it's more
that Ben is an elite QB among current NFL QB’s. To say he’s the best ever is not true. That goes to the pure passer’s like Marino, Manning, Brady to name a few. But in terms of finding ways to win in big moments, Roethlisberger is among the very best among active QB’s, and with some more time, will most likely obtain a similar rank out of all QB’s to ever play the game in that respect.
BTSC Obituaries
OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.
by HighSchoolSteeler on Feb 8, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
remember this..
Brees and manning BOTH play in domes…nine games per year, minimum! BB, Brady all play in crappy weather most of the time…This will add to their stats..
by nycsteelerfan on Feb 8, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO Ben is a great QB
as opposed to an excellent “passer”, which both Manning/18 and Brady are.
I personally still wonder if Ben invests the kind of time in perfecting his craft as Manning/18 or Brady does. Ben said a year or two ago that he “never touches a football in the offseason”. That disturbed me. An attitude like that could see him falling behind as he ages. nless, of course, he changes that attitude.
I love Ben, of course, but think he is waay too cocky at times.
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My beef
Is that all these pundits (cough Steve Young cough) are saying now that Brees has a ring, he belongs in the elite company of Manning and Brady. Ok fine. Apparently some of us fans aren’t the only ones that think SB victories are what make certain QB’s great. But if they make that argument, why no mention of Roethlisberger?
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 4:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
meant to reply to StoneColdSteel
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Playing QB is a numbers game
Super Bowls come into play but the measure of a QB is the way he runs his offense and how poised he is under pressure. Unfortunately Peyton has often come up short under pressure, even back when he was at UT.
It doesn’t matter what the media says. Most of them are yes men anyway. The media often says things for shock value because they know it means more ratings for them.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
I’d say Ben runs the offense pretty damn well and is extremely poised under pressure. Add a couple SB victories to that and you’ve got an elite QB – as things currently stand that is. Whether or not he goes down as one of the greatest all time is yet to be determined….but he sure as hell is laying some good groundwork.
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 8, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben plays for the Steelers.
Our defense is better than it is because they wear Black and Gold.
Our running game is great even when it isn’t.
Ben just manages the game even if he has to carry the team on his back to do it.
Lastly, and possibly the biggest reason is we hate QB’s here. We had an all time great in Bradshaw and we didn’t like him. Ben is an all time great, but if you look at our getting to know you thread, who lists him as their favorite player? We don’t drool over Ben and put him on a pedestal way up and make excuses when he plays bad. We bash our QB’s and over-analyze their faults and praise Hines Ward and Troy who have flaws too, but walk on water in this city.
We just aren’t a QB town.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 8, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clarify I don’t think it is bad. Everyone makes too big a fuss over QB’s. They are very important, but they aren’t the team. A great team always beats a great player.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 8, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you
I wasn’t old enough to remember Bradshaw’s hay day, but I’ve heard plenty about his criticisms and general treatment. If it would have taken Ben the same amount of time to win his first SB, he would probably get the same treatment. Instead, there is a certain tolerance and reliance on him now…but certainly nothing over the top.
Bad Andy, Good Pizza.
by count'em_six on Feb 9, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben is thew best!!
You think Peyton could have won the SB last year for us with that O-Line?? Or Brady for that matter? Nobody, And I mean nobody can make plays like BB..He has guys hanging all over him and STILL makes all the throws! How many QBs today could make that throw that tone caught in last year SB??? Or, against GB this season? BB is 8-2 In the post season. One loss was to the cheatriots and won was against Jacksonville..with NO FWP, no Troy, No Aaron smith…and we still should have won that game, Bad call at the end and bad coaching had BB run instead of passing..Plus, the stupid call for the 2 PT conversion from the 10yd line!
by nycsteelerfan on Feb 8, 2010 4:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tom Brady has three rings
Should have four. As far as a pure passer Brady is better. And even though nobody wants to admit it, that 2007 team was the best team ever, regardless of the end result. They faced some pretty good teams that year and blew most of them out.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"could" have four.
A hard, wide distance between “could” and “should”.
That Patriots* team sure could score, but they lost that SB, just as sure as they “won” the other three. And althout the record books will not likely record *Spygate it will still exist in the minds and memories of the fans. Especially those of us unfortunate enough to have seen the apparent evidence of cheating with our own eyes.
Brady has been a very, very good QB, certainly, but the shadow of that cheating looms dark over him, whether he had an active hand in it or not (I personally do NOT think Brady was in on it, but think he suspected something). Ultimately think it’s a shame that we’ll never know for sure how good a QB Tom Brady REALLY is…
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants were the better team that day
But the Pats were clearly better that year.
And if Spygate explains why they won, then why after they got caught did they proceed to kick the as* of everyone they faced? I guess it really wasn’t the reason they won.
The Giants were a good team, but it took a miracle catch and a missed interception for them to win that game. The Giants just outplayed them.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And you can't discount that Brady was injured
…but, the best team in those few hours came out on top.
And the only way to beat them was to stop them on third down, and knock him around…which the Giants did.
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
That’s all I was trying to say.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
it was undoubtedly in the NYG’s gameplan to “take Brady out of his game”, but I don’t think they intended to injure him. Just to completely disrupt his timing. And they did it enough to win.
And yes: the Pats had a fantastic team that year.
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Patriots 2007, best ever?????
You are kidding, right?? How many HOFers on that team?? I watched them get outplayed by the Ravens! true, they were very good that year, best ever?? Don’t drink the Kool aid! BTW, BB is the better footbal player..not the pocket passer Brady is though, BUT, under defensive pressure, we saw what “Tom Terrific” does under pressure..ask the giants, Ravens..
by nycsteelerfan on Feb 8, 2010 7:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You have very selective memory
You only bring up their close games and ignore the blowouts the laid on people. I remember them beating the #1 defense (us) in the league 34-13. I remember them slaughtering the Redskins 52-7. I remember Brady tearing apart the Cowboys secondary.
If you seriously think the Giants were the better team you need your head examined. That pass rush that helped them in the Super Bowl sure did help them in week 17 right? 38-35 was the score the first time they met. The Giants were good, but not great like the Pats.
I’d put them up against any team on a neutral site and win at least 7 times out of 10.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Their offense and D
..were firing on all cylinders. reminded me of 49 ers, Joe M style, playing denver like they were a high school team that SB.
When healthy, no one touched them that year, hate to say. And I do mean hate to say
by Twell on Feb 8, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate them almost as much as I hate the BenGals
But they were a great team by every stretch of the imagination.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 8, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There's only one game that counts when the season ends.
And they lost it. It don’t matter how good you are the rest of the time, if you can’t win when it counts the most, then you don’t belong in the greatest team discussion.
The 2005 Steelers were better than the 2007 Patriots. Because they won the only game that counted. Nothing else matters.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 8, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not doing this necessarily to be devil's advocate
but I believe that the 07 Pats team was a one trick pony. Only a year after the offense was so prolific, it sputters against good defenses. Every pass play was identical. Moss deep, welker on a slant, everyone else, do something to distract them! And every play was a pass. The 07 Pats got away with a few in the regular season that they should have lost, due to dumb luck or shoddy officiating. They were good, don’t get me wrong, but I think the 05 Colts were more solid, and the 08 Steelers D was good enough to make it a better team in its own right.
by klompus on Feb 8, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly!
an official subconsciously wanting the Pats and Brady to succeed, or benefit from a call, is not the same as accusing them of cheating IMO.
I think Brady DID get certain call his way because of who he was, but not in any overt sense. More a of a “benefit of the doubt” thing, since it was so “good for the league”.
Don’t misunderstand me: the officials and their calls are very, very much a part of the game. But officials are human too, and like some players better than other whether they mean to or not.
IMO, of course…
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'm going to convince anybody cause we're all homers
But that team did whatever it wanted to do every week. Unless you pressured the hell out of them, there was no way to stop them. They were just that good.
by StoneColdSteel on Feb 9, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Achiles had his heel.
He lost too.
by Phantaskippy on Feb 9, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats my feeling
Did whatever they wanted, against those teams, that year. I don’t like trying to say another years team might have shut them down or things like that. Food for conversation of course, but nothing conclusive to be shown.
by Twell on Feb 9, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They were not better than the
’78 Steelers. ’78 would have shut Brady down. Offensively sure, but, overall, no.
The only managing Ben does is he manages to WIN games
by chewiesteeler on Feb 9, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW...
True they beat us that year..No troy or clark and no Aaron Smith…remember he destroyed our secondary after Anthony Smith guaranteed a victory..
by nycsteelerfan on Feb 8, 2010 8:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Steve Young= Too many blows to the head
Which results in speaking out of his arse.
by jglo on Feb 8, 2010 9:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's kind of sad
to be able to tell the difference between the younger, un-concussed Steve Young and today’s stuttering, stammering and occassionally confused one.
Dude was hammered one too many times. I’m glad he retired before something worse came of his hard-headed play…
by tobiathan on Feb 8, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Young was going to slug Irvin
during the HOF announcement show. Irvin (jackass that he is and always will be) was yammering about how WR don’t get shown the respect (blah blah blah) like QB’s do…and the only reason the QB is great is because there’s a WR out there to catch the ball (yada yada yada) Young was clearly annoyed~ he isn’t even able to hide it well anymore.
I felt bad for Rod Woodson having to sit on the stage with them.. oh well… that panel needed the class that Woodson provided.
Side note: I’ll still take 1 Ben over 2 Mannings and a Brady. Guess that makes me a homer. LOL
When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. Shut up and play!
by 1BlkGldFan on Feb 9, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not take Ben over 'em all?
I think it’s safe to say there is no other QB in the league like Big Ben. I’d certainly take him over Manning any day of the week. Sure, Peyton’s smart and all, but he’s a pansy. You ever see what happens when a defender runs free at him? He just lays down. Doesn’t even bother attempting to make a play, extend the play, anything. He just hits the turf. You can’t expect to win a SB against a good defense if your QB is afraid to take a hit (and yes, I picked the Saints to win for that reason… any maybe also because of that Jets game… karma, it’s a bitch). As for Brady, he was the product of an outstanding OL and a HOF WR in Moss. 2007 team the best team ever? NO. They lost. End of discussion. I know he was coming back from an injury this year, but he hardly looks like an elite QB when under pressure.
Bottom line: if I had to choose a QB to lead a dream team (one with elite defense and offense), I’d probably still choose Ben over the rest. And I need only look to the 2009 SB and the more recent game against the Packers to see why… when the game is on the line, you want a guy who’s not going to fold under the pressure.
by SteelerBoy86 on Feb 9, 2010 3:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AGREED!! SteelerBoy86!
There is not a better football player than BB! Give BB a dome and Peytons O-Line, and watch the numbers rise! Pats’s the greatest of all time??? Hell no, they LOST! The Giants beat them fair and square! Look, we will win the North this year…Reasons…We have BB and troy, undisputabily the 2 best players in the division, Barring none! All this I hear about rivers, who is good, I will admit, and all this MVP talk I hear,,BB had almost identicle stats as he did this year, plus BB missed a game! Even Peytons numbers are similars to BB and he plays in a dome! Look, BB is only 27!! How old is Brady? 33 and peyton, 34-35! The future is ours!
by nycsteelerfan on Feb 9, 2010 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What part of
I’ll still take 1 Ben OVER 2 Mannings and a Brady gave you the most trouble?
Let me type slower…. I think Ben is much better. There. That better?
When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. Shut up and play!
by 1BlkGldFan on Feb 9, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"simma don na!"
no one was arguing with you. we were simply continuing the point you advanced so eloquently at the end of your post.
and as if jason cole of yahoo sports was reading our minds, check this:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AmIbPvMFdo9ZrXV8sDbZrzJDubYF?slug=jc-directsnap020910&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
by SteelerBoy86 on Feb 10, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
those stats are incorrect
all the stats you provided are incorrect. They don’t include 2009 season.
by Bonek on Feb 9, 2010 7:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
of course they are...
haven’t you heard that 64% of all statistics are incorrect anyway?
by SteelerBoy86 on Feb 9, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha!!
"OOH! A piece of candy. OOH! A piece of candy."
-James Woods
by SteelFever on Feb 9, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well played, sir.
"You learn more in failure than you do in success." - Mike Tomlin
by momma rollett on Feb 9, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that winning a Super Bowl is a team achievement, I must, nonetheless agree wholeheartedly with you. I agree with everything you said, especially about Steve Young. As for Ben not being done yet, that sounds very much like a comment made by a HOF committee member speaking on NFL Total Access. In fact, she said that if Ben continues at his current success rate, he will most certainly be in the HOF. Yes, I too get angry when the commentators make stupid remarks, but those of us who are truly Steeler fans know what we have in Big Ben.
by Seymour56 on Feb 13, 2010 3:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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