Hartwig + Pouncey > Pouncey + Essex/Foster?

You bring up a thought provoking point. However, Pouncey needs to start at center for multiple reasons:
1) He is the best center on the Steelers roster… by a huge margin. His natural position is center and while he did play some guard at Florida… he excels at center and is not as dominant at the guard position.
2) He is the best offensive lineman suited to handle a dominant nose tackle like Ngata.
3) The center often helps double team pass rushers… something Hartwig just doesn’t have the lateral movement for, the foot work, the arm strength or even the leverage positioning. Foster has been average at best… but he is 7 years younger and about 20 pounds heavier.
4) Hartwig has never played guard for the Steelers and if he’s questionable at his own position… to see him start out of position would make any Steeler fan cringe.
5) I believe something that doesn’t get talked about a lot in this forum was Hartwig’s inability to call out the pass rushing & defense schemes fast enough or accurately. This directly effects the blocking pick-ups by our lineman and often why there is a guy flying into the backfield untouched. Pouncey is smarter and will do a much better job at calling out the defensive alignments/schemes this year.

And it’s also something I’ve spent time considering.

I think, physically, there is no question that Pouncey is dominant compared to Hartwig, even as a rookie who will take his lumps.

However, Steelers73 made the fair point that Hartwig may actually NOT be superior to Pouncey in the mental aspect of the game; which is sad, because Center is a hard offensive position to learn, and you’d think ANY veteran, no matter how lousy, would be better than a rookie.

I say we start whichever one calls the blocking assignments better. And while I don’t like Hartwig as a center long term, and agree that in the future, MP should play his natural position, having Hartwig man center this year, and giving Pouncey a year to adjust before handing him the reins makes sense.

That, and has the line has been lousy, veteran depth seems to be a bad thing to cut at this point, even if it’s veteran depth that was never great to begin with.

We should have drafted another premiere interior lineman two or three years ago…

I can’t bring any more knowledge of o-line here, but I would like to see Hartwig at least get a shot at C with two decent G’s next to him. He has at times been the most consistent o-lineman for us, (maybe not last season). And he was such an upgrade over Mahan…. I’d rather see him than Essex or Foster start…

For me then, the big question is whether Pouncey is in fact already as good or better than Hartwig at recognizing what assignments to call out, etc…. Somehow I doubt this, as all we see in pre-season are basic packages, and as awesome as Pouncey obviously is, he is a rookie. But that is perhaps my bias…

He’s the one who kills this. He needs an experienced RG next to him to help him with the new scheme, new side, etc. Essex is valuable because he makes Flozell better, even though Essex himself is a turnstile at RG.

I think this is one of the reasons why they are reluctant to put Pouncey there or a younger player like Foster or Urbik. And once you do start Pouncey, you need experienced guards on either side of him to help with his calls. He’s smart, but still a rook.

If Colon was healthy, it would change everything and you could see an open competition at C and RG. But once he went down, it was almost certain that Essex would keep his job at least to start the season.

I’m waiting for next year: Colon comes back healthy and is pushed by Chris Scott and Tony Hills, Essex gets pushed by Scott, Foster, Urbik, Legursky… we could actually be heading in the right direction here.

There’s really no reason to cut Hartwig. Keep the best 9 guys. I say: Adams, Essex, Pouncey, Kemo, Starks, Foster, Urbik, Hartwig, and either Hills/Scott. I think Hills is slightly better than Scott, but the other 8 guys are definitely the best we have. I think Urbik over Legursky could be debated, but I think we’ve seen Legursky’s ceiling and Urbik may have more upside. As far as starting, I say Foster>Essex, but I say Essex starts on gameday.

Nope. Essex really isn’t that bad. He’s a good pass blocking RG, but kind of poor in the running game. No reason to get rid of him for Hartwig who isn’t very good in the running game or at pass blocking.

…take the 2 million bucks and split it in half between Skippy and Woodley.

jk. I’m on the “Start Pouncey at center” bandwagon because he has proved himself to be far better than Hartwig there. Hartwig will not be happy, and he is due to make 2M unless cut, and they need roster spots, for, say, young LBs to (please god) improve the kick coverage. Hartwig will be cut fo sho.

He’s done what first rounders are picked to do, but (at least in Pittsburgh) often fail to achieve; create an immediate upgrade on the team. Pouncey is the first to actually do that since Heath Miller. Hartwig’s problem is size (not as bad as Mahan, but bad enough) that doesn’t get any better if he switches to guard. Though you are right to suggest this alternative because he would still probably be better than Essex at the position, just not good enough.

I also think he has earned the righ, at this stage of his career to request the next step; remain as a valuable backup or be given the opportunity to play somewhere else.

What bothers me about discussions like these is the lack of mention of Foster. Yes, I know the guy was an undrafted FA. But he played well in 4 games last year and he’s been solid this preseason. When he plays, he’s effective. Now we don’t get to see the practices and the coaches have Essex in front of Foster, but I often wonder why. I’d like to see him get a real shot at the starting job.

Either way, I want Pouncey at the Center position. He’s just more effective than Hartwig. We often have to scheme to cover Hartwig’s lack of push and the running game suffers for it. I think it’s easier to scheme for a weak guard than a weak center.

I must admit, I didn’t think Pouncey would be this GOOD this quickly. He’s a natural center. I haven’t seen those jailbreaks coming through the middle with him playing center and I even saw him get movement on NT Jamal Williams more than a few times against Denver. If the kid’s got it, then turn him loose and let him play. I think the Steelers finally have a future All-Pro stud that they can build around on the line.

I think Hartwig is more part of the problem than he is the solution. I believe $2M is a lot of money for the Rooney family for someone who doesn’t fit in the team’s long range plans and have declining skills on top of that. Along with Pouncey, Legursky and Urbik can also play center. I’m more interested in if Urbik will beat out Jonathon Scott or R. Foster for that last OL spot.

I also think the Steelers need to keep 9 LBs and 10 DBs this year. I just think that Sly Sylvester and C. Butler could be starters in two years and very good players at that. With Timmons and Sly together, you have 2 three-down LBs on the field at all times (K. Fox could have something to say about that as well). It’s comical hearing beat writers talk about the team keeping LB Patrick Bailey because he’s so great on special teams. I’ve never seen him make a tackle in the base defense during all three preseason games nor has he made a tackle on special teams. He was also such a beast this past year on teams that the team gave up 4 TD’s. Please. Keep the youngsters at LB and let them learn from the studs.

I don’t think you can cut CB C. Butler, especially since K. Lewis might end up being a head case and both Ike and Gay will be free agents at the end of the year. Glad the final cut is Saturday so we can get this stuff behind us. Right now, I’m learning toward keeping Tank Summers over J. Dwyer just because Dwyer hasn’t shown that he can do anything else but run the ball. This last game could decide the final 4 to 5 roster spots tonight.

For those of us who are not in the Pittsburgh area, someone please post a link to view this game online as soon as possible tonight. I will be watching from my laptop. The NFL Network won’t show this game until 8 p.m. on Saturday night.

Here’s a hypothetical we don’t want to think about: Game against the Ravens, just before BR returns, Pouncey breaks a leg stomping Ray Lewis’s head into the turf and is out for the rest of the regular season.

We would want Hartwig on the roster at that point.

Even if nothing bad happens, football is a rough game, and there’s a lot of risk to cut your previous starter for such a knowledge-heavy position in favor of a rookie (Even one as exceptional as MP looks to be)

Sorry to doubt, but cutting JH sounds like a not-great idea. Also, the Rooney’s are billionaires…they don’t trip on a couple million the way 99% of us do.