Cincinnati Bengals Get Shot In Franchise's Arm In Trading Carson Palmer
by Neal Coolong on Oct 18, 2011 1:00 PM EDT
in AFC North News
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PrintPeople seem to think Bengals owner Mike Brown isn't particularly intelligent.
Maybe we should think again.
He took the No. 1 pick of the 2003 draft, QB Carson Palmer, got two division championships out of the team and 2,024-for-3,217 passing (62.9 percent) for 154 touchdowns and a 86.9 passer rating out of Palmer, then traded him for two more first round picks.
Buy kind-of-high, sell insanely high.
Oakland sensed desperation with the injury to veteran QB Jason Campbell, and largely mortgaged their future to bring Palmer in, who hasn't attempted a pass since the end of a horrific 2010, where Palmer turned the ball over 23 times en route to a 4-12 season.
The trade left Oakland with just a fifth and a sixth round pick in the 2012 draft.
ESPN's Adam Schefter reported the trade was for a 2012 first-round pick, and a conditional 2013 first-round pick. It would depend on what, exactly, the conditions are, but it's likely to be similar to the deal the Jets traded Green Bay for QB Brett Favre in 2007, which was based on playing time, and was converted to a 3rd round pick. It had the potential of being a first, had Favre basically re-written the NFL passing record books.
Either way, it's a complete steal for Cincinnati. In comparison, the Minnesota Vikings traded sixth-round picks in 2011 and 2012 to Washington for QB Donovan McNabb, who's 2011 numbers so far are, at worst, similar to Palmer's in 2010. Minnesota is 1-5, and could replace McNabb with rookie Christian Ponder in Week 7.
It becomes even more one-sided, considering the Bengals reached their 2010 win total in just six weeks under second-round rookie QB Andy Dalton. A revived defensive effort has sparked the Bengals this season, and appear to be in it for the long haul this season.
Maybe Oakland believes in the Mayan Prophecy that the world will end in December of 2012. Or maybe Rachel Phelps, formerly of the Cleveland Indians, took over for Al Davis. It's unclear exactly what Oakland sees in Palmer, a QB who's grown progressively worse since 2007. He hasn't sniffed the 101 passer rating he earned in 2005, or even the 93 rating he got in 2006. Injuries have taken their toll on the former Pro Bowl passer, and the teams he's been on have gotten worse with him, and even won despite him in 2009.
Adding in his gigantic contract, the Raiders acquired a passer who's stats show he's on decline, flat-out said he was willing to quit (a great characteristic of a leader) last year and hasn't played more than pick-up football since a season-ending loss to Baltimore on Jan. 2, 2011.
Did anyone tell Oakland any of this?
What's worse, Cleveland presumably had scandalous pictures of members of the Falcons ownership group, and agreed to destroy them only if Atlanta offered up a pile of picks for the 6th overall choice last year.
As BTSC's John Stephens mentioned earlier, Atlanta traded its 2011 first-round (27th overall), second-round (54th) and fourth-round (124th) picks, and their 2012 first and fourth round picks for Cleveland's first-round (6th overall) in 2011. The Falcons drafted Julio Jones, the Browns likely hired 20 more scouts to watch extensively the 2012 draft class.
Cleveland and Cincinnati, the perennial AFC North cellar-dwellers, now own 12.5 percent of the 2012 first round draft picks. Unfortunately for the Steelers, they aren't in the AFC West with Oakland.
Brown played this masterfully. He not only won the battle with Palmer by refusing to give into his trade at the beginning of the season, when Palmer would have had a chance to pick up an offense, he got two future first-round picks to bolster a team on the rise while sending his enemy to the NFL's version of Siberia. He also sent a staunch message to the entire league, "SOMEone will give me a king's ransom for you if you threaten to retire, but since Oakland doesn't have a first-round pick until two years after the next presidential election, if you choose not to play for your team, you're gonna be sitting for quite a while."
It may be 11 a.m. in Cincinnati, but he's probably toasting beers as I type this.
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Apparently the condition is that if Oakland wins a playoff game this year it’s a first round. If not, it’s a second round. That’s just what I saw on twitter.
I’m still sticking with Mike Brown is an idiot though. This strikes me as one of those blind squirrel situations. Brown had no intention of trading Palmer unless some absurd situation happened and he was offered the king’s ransom. Lightning struck and it happened. Oakland is off to a good start and lost the only competent QB they had. Their stupid, their FO is askew after Al’s death, and they have a bad precedence from seeing Al work. Absolute desperation and they threw more at Palmer than he is worth. A lot more.
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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I’m almost even thinking, on his death bed, Al Davis told them to give two first-rounders for Palmer if Campbell gets hurt and Garrard doesn’t sign with them. Seems like an Al Davis thing to do.
I think the fact Brown would only trade Palmer for a king’s ransom is what makes him smart in this situation. Hard to argue with their record without Palmer showing they don’t need him (personally I think Palmer has been the problem with that franchise for a few years now. He’s not a leader, but that’s another rant for another day). Even harder to argue with the fact he waited out for a ransom offer, and that’s exactly what he got. I’d agree with the blind squirrel analogy if he got a third-round pick for him next year, but he got exactly what he wanted, and he still has a QB who matched Palmer’s 2010 win total in Week 6.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on Oct 18, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it’s somewhere in between and I just have a hard time giving him credit for this outcome.
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Oct 18, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Al Davis orchestrated this from the nether world. He got into Mike Browns head, and HYpNOTiZZZZZED him.
I believe it’s proof Al Davis is alive and he’s with Elvis right now, making crazy personnel decisions somewhere outside Las Vegas.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on Oct 18, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oops
Was still logged into Bean’s account.
by Neal Coolong on Oct 18, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Hacks
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter
by John Stephens on Oct 18, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe not so much a blind squirrel thing...
as possibly other squirrels taking control away little by little.
This Was A Good Move For Both Franchises
Oakland gave up a ton but they want to win now. They have an open window in the AFC West and now have the second best QB in the division. And you can’t break Mike Brown’s balls on this one. It may have been the best move he ever made picking up high draft picks for a couch potato.
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
but this is a team that hadnt even reached its full potential
and surely a player cant be worth 2 1st round picks to a team if he refuses to play for them. you’d think oakland could’ve gotten a much better deal than that.
oakland was desperate and brown played poker
he just named the price and said come get it, garrard is injured so there were not a lot of QB options out there. i guess patience is a virtue, without campbell going down with a collarbone injury maybe brown gets nothing for carson?
i will never understand the logic used to determine a players worth in draft picks
i dont think ive ever seen teams trade players for picks and thought “that seems like a fair trade”
I don’t think there is really a system for determining worth. It seems to be purely based on what the FO and/or the owner of a given team decides is fair. In some cases teams have a owner/management team that are desperate and get taken for way too much, ie the raiders who seem to give up to much when they make trades
by blitzzburgh on Oct 18, 2011 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I never like the Raiders trade moves
Always benefit a Steelers rival, for instance that stupid moves with the NE Cheaters
"Everytime NE Patriots lose, Football wins", myself
Here's a thought
Why didn’t we offer Ben up for 10 first rounders? I mean if Palmer is worth two, what is a quarterback with actual talent worth?
by Michael Uhlhorn on Oct 18, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
no one but the pats have that many draft picks without going into 2035
imagine ben and brady on the same team, good luck with that, talk about a clash of culture.
Who says we didn't?
Hmmm…two first-rounders a year for 10 years…from the Raiders…that’s at least six top 10 picks. There’s a rookie salary cap in place…tempting.
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on Oct 18, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Dixon had to be worth at least one (to Oakland)
should we be pissed we didn’t go after that?
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 18, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Did the Steelers even talk to the Raiders?
I am sure the Raiders would have given their 1st round pick and Darren McFadden for Dennis Dixon.
"He had no teeth, and he was slobbering all over himself. I'm thinking, 'You can have your money back, just get me out of here. Let me go be an accountant." I can't tell you how badly I wanted out of there."
- Denver rookie QB John Elway, on Jack Lambert, after Lambert and the Steelers knocked Elway out of his first game as a pro (1983).
As bad as we could use a Cog on Offense?
I would have thrown it out there to see if it stuck – not likely he will be back next year anyway.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
“Who says we didn’t?
Hmmm…two first-rounders a year for 10 years…from the Raiders…that’s at least six top 10 picks. There’s a rookie salary cap in place…tempting.”
Bean didn’t write this…I did. My bad, Beaner!
by Neal Coolong on Oct 18, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Its easy to belittle a player
But given real life circumstance… how can you fault Palmer for sitting?… He I believe saw the light that he was playing for a franchise more interested in filling seats then winning championships…. His family is west coast, and for him this is a great fit….. He certainly still has the desire to win and now will play with a francise who shares that goal… This trade in my mind makes the Raiders a ligit SB contender… Theyve got a stout OL and DL, and game controling running game…. great move by both teams in my mind…. I put Palmer as a notch above Flaco….and both the Ravens and the Raiders have the team make up to beat NE and GB….. I can see how this doesnt sit well with Steeler fans on a whole…. much better for Palmer to sit and Cinncy to flounder…but from these two teams perspective Its a win win…. I dont think the Radiers front office is as inept as stated
I agree 100%
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 18, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
this here
It had to be frustrating being him in Cincy. I’ve heard all the “you’re rich, shut up and play” but like he’s said, he has enough money, he doesn’t care. he wants to win. Cincy is doing better than expected this year, but they haven’t really beat anybody, and i don’t think it’s going to last
If i were in Palmers shoes, i would have done the same thing.
It’s gonna be hard living up to being worth 2 number 1’s, but, i think he’s a lot better than he gets credit for, and Oakland, to me just became a scary team.
He signed a contract, that's why
And I’d take (shuddering) Flacco (gagging) over Palmer any day. Easily.
by Neal Coolong on Oct 18, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That's too easy Neal...
the owners barely ever honor a full contract, why hold players to a different standard.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 18, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, he already typed it
but, it’s true. contracts don’t mean shit in the NFL. Owners can cancel it, and no one cares, but if a player tries using some of his power, then he’s a over paid baby or whatever else.
I’m sure he signed that contract under the assumption, or assurance from the FO that they were going to at least try to win, and possibly take less chances on career convicts.
Players get bought out when they get released
And we’re not talking about a special teams player here. I think it was a gutless way for him to go about it. I’m so tired of how people have galvanized Carson Palmer, and made him into some kind of a victim. The team was 4-12 last year, and he played far below his contract. I have a really difficult time seeing how none of the blame falls squarely on his shoulder; right about the captain’s C.
I hate the Cincinnati Bengals, but I’m realizing now, it’s probably more due to Palmer than anyone else. He blew out his knee on the third play of his first playoff game – the franchise’s first in two decades. So what does he do? He goes home. Meanwhile, his team loses all control, and his moron WR starts swinging on the head coach at halftime.
A leader would have taken a few painkillers and at least stuck around the locker room. He would have tried to do anything he could for his team. Maybe them seeing him in the locker room at halftime could have helped calm them down.
Nope. The thought never occured to him (at least judging by his infamous SI interview when he was popping off about how much he hates the Steelers).
by Neal Coolong on Oct 19, 2011 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions
HATE.......well
I leave that for things that have earned it in real life….say…an X wife who ground up your heart, fleeced your pocket, and kept your children from you for spites sake alone…. not for something as silly as football….
Seems to me the “culture” that is displayed by the Cinn front office is exactly what its players portrait….and that is not position specific…. Its some big surprise? Given how NFL players are in general treated like yesterdays newspaper and tossed in the circular file daily..Ive no problem at all with a player having perspective of " HIS REAL" life…and living it to his liking… Dont we all do the same thing….. Contracts are worth as much as the “intent” inplied by management when signing them….. And lets face it…atleast Palmer gave it a shot in Cinny….how many primadonna’s as numb 1 picks have blatenly said they refuse to play for the team likely to draft them… even the steelers when the time suits them drops players due to circumstance ….willie parker coming to mind… certainly wsnt in his twilight yrs yet… Sad fact is the NFL is a business… those rules and choices should be available for players as well….Palmer “business” decision was to sit out..give up football if needed…. let me think?…if I had 70 mill in the bank, was happily married had a couple kids….how hard is that decision…. Frankly, I dont know Palmer, or the ownership of the bengals….so…..its all on the outside looking in stuff….only the parties involved know the real story no matter how many sports broadcasters with their own opinions tell you… My personal reasons for liking this trade really are for the Raiders…. honestly…if we cant make it to the superbowl….sure like to see them knock off the Ravens and NE to get there, and then Beat up on GB…. and just to say a quick word about captain….. funny thing about having a “position” without authority, title is worthless…..
by OR69faithfull on Oct 19, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
only sad point is, im quite sure the Radiers would of been Palmers landing place next spring….so the QB injury forced their hand,… if were me making the decision i would of let the yr go, kept my draft picks and signed him in april…
by OR69faithfull on Oct 19, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
and remember the last time the Raiders picked up a past his prime immobile QB
What was that guys name? Oh yeah, Jim Plunkett…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Players don't get 100% of their contract filled when they are released
and when it does come time to pay someone, teams extend their contracts with terms more favorable to the team – Rarely if ever does a player ever make the actual amounts laid out in their salary, lets not pretend like this is an even playing field for the players, they are cans on the shelf that the teams handle as such in most cases. Name another job outside of professional sports where you can be “traded” to another office without so much as a conversation with you and you are then legally bound to a whole new organization? It’s like spending years at UPS getting traded to FedEx – think about it.
Why would you care if he hates the Steelers? If anyone has the right it is Palmer, the Steelers have single-handedly made his life miserable for the last 8 years – including destroying his knee. HE at least has a valid reason, I listen to fans hate all the time and we don’t even play – why would his hate not be valid?
I don’t see the problem with Palmer hating the Steelers. He had just reached the pinnacle of his career in a town he probably never wanted to play in and got his knee destroyed – I don’t have an issue with him being mentally weak at that point and wanting to go home and sulk – hell, I felt terrible for him when that happened – and lets be honest it is the only reason we won that game – I am sure he knows that too – we took away his knee and his shot. There is no reason to bash the guy, he was ready to retire rather than play another down for that organization – good for him for having the balls and for being financially stable.
The only part I don’t like about this is I think it makes both parties exponentially better. If you think he is gonna just fall on his face I will caution you with one Kurt Warner – More likely is he needed a fresh start. Cinci getting 2 first rounders? Like they needed help in the draft – they have already been drafting high – that just blows. Same with Cleveland – little jealous with all the first round picks right now with our decimated O-Line…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It's Corey Dillon all over again
Just minus the aspersions on his character that Dillon unjustly suffered.
Sorry to those who have read me post about Dillon before — I just think that of all the people unjustly victimized by front office politics in NFL history, Dillon took, by far, the most undeserved beating ever.
Truth is, Palmer should have left sooner.
by theobserver on Oct 19, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I haven't
but, wow..thanks.
I never assume anything about a player, because i know that powerful people are in general, evil. so I had a suspicion that Dillon was getting hosed. I always wonder that when i hear a story.
It’s actually maddening, because i can never know the truth. I wonder if players like Benson are targeted because of the way they, or if they really are scumbags.
I think that’s why i don’t mind players like Vick, while so many hate him. I didn’t hate Santonio either. And obviously I had no negative feelings about Plaxico…that is the worst 2 year sentence in the history of “justice” in this country.
There is no way to ever know whether a player is guilty, or being railroaded, so i decided to ONLY judge them based on what they do on the field. I just want to watch good football.
I don’t need moral lessons, I’ve gathered those on my own. I don’t need a role model. I don’t need soap opera drama, I’m not a woman. I don’t need to hate someone I don’t know personally, there are enough people I do know that are pushing me in that regard.
I just want to watch football, and save the drama for things I actually have to deal with.
Without the drama
Without the drama they’d have to talk about football on all the TV shows!
by theobserver on Oct 19, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly what I'm talking about
The situations of Palmer and Dillon are not even close to the same. Palmer got paid considerably more and did far less position-to-position. They gave Palmer the keys to the franchise, and treated like royalty. They basically just spat on Dillon despite being arguably the game’s most productive back for three years.
Palmer was never a serious contender for a best 3 QB over a three-year stretch.
And as you said, the Bengals basically character-assassinated Dillon, rarely ever spending money on players to compliment him.
If Palmer has an issue with Cincinnati, that’s fine, he certainly has plenty of evidence to suggest the franchise does not make winning its top priority. But Palmer is just as much a part of the loser culture within that organization as mostly everything else. I will go to my grave with that opinion.
by Neal Coolong on Oct 19, 2011 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, ease up on the hate for a guy you don't know.
did he screw your high school sweetheart or something? What’s the big deal? There are far worse villains in the league than Palmer.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
How do you gauge any Bengals player?
Truth be told, what metric can possibly account for the effect of a team that historically stayed way below the salary cap?
by theobserver on Oct 19, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay...I'm just wondering
What happens with Campbell next year? I was also surprised we heard nothing out of Miami after Henne went down with regards to Palmer, i guess they knew better then to trade all those picks
by TrueSteelerForLife on Oct 18, 2011 3:30 PM EDT reply actions
Campbell becomes a backup - Palmer is better.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
"Next year" is a lifetime away in the NFL
By next year, Jason Campbell could be starting for the Seahawks as they make a Super Bowl run.
by theobserver on Oct 19, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Its Not How Many Picks You Have, But What You Do With Them...
Neal, Great post. I tend to agree with Michael on this one – Mike Brown knew he was getting an offer he could not refuse. If you consider what McNabb, Leftwich, and Quinn got traded four a 1st is huge.
But at the end of the day, it is about who you pick.
The Steelers had to firsts in 1989, and picked Tim Worley and Tom Ricketts. And truthfully, at the end of the 1989 season, they both looked like two pretty good picks.
But by December 1990 it was clear that Ricketts was on the way to eating himself out of the league and Worley was on the way to blowing his signing bonus up his nose.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 18, 2011 3:43 PM EDT reply actions
Tom Ricketts
Ouch Hombre. My head hurts. What a horrid pick that was….and a Pitt guy to boot.
When You Run The Ball Good Things Happen
Tom Ricketts and the '89 Draft
It wasn’t just Rickettes. At the end of the 1989 season it looked as if the Steelers had scored a major draft coup. But while they did get a few gems, the ’89 draft brought a lot of fools gold too.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 18, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the last year's of the Cavemen Days of the NFL draft
The Hershel Walker Trade followed a few years later by the Leaf Vs. Manning “Decision,” and you have the short story on why teams now spend millions of dollars in scouting and personnel managers.
There were lots of complete busted first round picks in the 80s, and no one put as much emphasis on the draft as they do today, not by a long shot. The Vikings essentially trading 2.5 years worth of picks to the Cowboys so they could cheaply build the mortar around the rocks they already had drafted led to three championships in a very short amount of time. The fact people sat and debated whether Ryan Leaf – a guy Polian’s head scout screamed at him “he doesn’t love to play football!” was actually worthy of being taken so high.
After that, scouts started to dig far deeper into potential picks, looking at personalities, friends, backgrounds, etc. They stopped ignoring simple things like determining whether the guy actually wants to play, and made it a priority to draft Type A control-freaks (Manning) to lead their offense.
by Neal Coolong on Oct 19, 2011 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions
As a Bengals fan I got a lot of satisfaction watching CP twist in the wind.
But, this was a deal too good to pass up. BTW as much as it knida burns me up, congratulations on regaining the top D rating. Don’t get me wrong I think we have a pretty good D here in Cincy, but I really think both the Steelers and Ravens have more dominant D’s. Anyway the AFCN seems to rule other divisions on Defense.
We have had pretty good drafts the last few years, mollified by the fact that Andre Smith is finally showing why we drafted him in the first place. He held Mathis off all day Sunday and put him on his back multiple times. Whit is playing potential all pro LG. If we can use the two first rounders on a couple of quality guards and our 2nd on a good Safety we might make some noise next year. We are much bettter than I expected we would be but I really don’t see us winning eirher game against the Ravens or Steelers. It could happen I guess but we would have to play at the top of our game while they played off a bit. Next year maybe but not this year IMO.
I havn’t visited your board for a while and I thought I would give my 2 cents worth.
Peace.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
You guys always play the Ravens tough
you’ll split with them at least.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 18, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they play us just as tough, but they do have a way of bringing the Ravens back down when they are flying high
That has been kind of the problem in a way klompus
Here in Cincy we know the road to the post season goes thru Baltimore and then Pittsburgh. So Marvin has tried to set up the team to beat them. Occasionally we succeed but when it comes to teams that don’t play the AFCN style of football we struggle where you guys can beat any style on any given day. For the first time in a very long time I think we just may be seeing a new and real football team. We really don’t have any big names here now. No big egos, just a bunch of young very team oriented players who don’t care about individual attention. They just want to win. No, we aren’t there yet. We are young and need to continue to gel, but what is amazing is that this time they actually are gelling. Bengals fans haven’t experienced that since the Wyche era. I see it in Pittsburgh. I see it in Baltimore. It feels great to finally see the beginnings of it here. We have gone from 32nd in the power rankings to 13th in just six weeks. That is impressive to me. We may be a bit late this year but next year we will be a team to be concerned about.
Believe me, next year and to a bit lesser extent this year teams will groan when they see AFCN teams on their schedule.
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I applaud you
for sticking by them. It’s tough when sometimes it seems like your owner don’t even care about winning (just like the Pirates owner) But you stick with it.
I do like (hate, as a Steeler fan) where these Bengals are going. I think they’ve had at least two great drafts in a row. Green is obvious, but I think Shipley is going to be a monster too. I’m not sure how I feel about Dalton yet, but people seem to be getting behind him. That tight end you guys got (Gresham? right?) seems to be turning in to a monster too.
Lot’s to look forward to for you guys, in my opinion
Congrats for sticking by your team
they are on the rise and I am not looking forward to those games at this point.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it is a reaction to all of the butt whippings you guys have.....
given to us over the years, but I am not looking forward to the games either. Okay, yea I am, if only to find out just where we are. We will know how good our D really is. We will also know just how effective Dalton and the O is against quality competition. The way I see it all of our games this year are not must wins. I really don’t think we are realistic playoff contenders as that would be too presumptous. But all of these games are must learn games. This year is a preseason for next year when I think we may be in a position to make some noise.
It would be interesting if the Bengals did make the playoffs though. Imagine how much crow all of the pundits would have to eat after picking us as the worst team in the league. They would have to eat sh*t to grt the taste out of their mouth.
Peace, JJ
"If we always agree, one of us is not necessary"
I understand that
and I think that the Raven’s have taken the same approach to get to where they are now – focus on beating us, the rest will come. I have been very impressed with Dalton, we’ll see how things go. You never know how far a team with good chemistry can go, right now I am worried about the games v you guys, not so much Cleveland who I thought was going to be more like Cinci this year – go Figure (I also thought we would be undefeated right now)…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I too thought Cleveland
was ready to take a step up. I am shocked that they just can’t seem to turn the corner.
Congratulations
On fleecing the Raiders and making the AFC North a more dominate division and making rivalries stronger… Now if only the Browns could stop slacking.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play." ~Jack Lambert.
"Superman ain't got nothing on me, ... Kryptonite? C'mon now. It's just that you're never going to hear me say that somebody is tougher than me, ... Because I don't believe somebody else could be tougher than me." ~James Harrison
by H-burgSTEELfanatic on Oct 18, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, ya'll sure didn't need that kinda help, you have already been drafting well!
Trying to keep the jealousy inside…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Someone tell Mr Rooney to stop feeding vita-muffins to Mike Brown
before he makes more smart moves.
have to give credit to the Bengals for making themselves deal like the Patriots.
"Franco made that play because he never quit on the play. He kept running, he kept hustling. Good things happen to people who hustle."
nice reference!
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Now all they have to do is keep making picks like Andy Dalton and we'll be okay
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 18, 2011 7:26 PM EDT reply actions
is dalton bad?
because of the new CBA all i can say is that his cap hit for the nest 3 years is like $3.9mm total (average $1.3mm per year) and he cannot renegotiate this amount, period. imagine how many players you can add if you don’t have to pay your QB $12-25mm per year.
Well personally, I wasn't a fan of Dalton as a player, and thought they could've picked a better QB, let alone player
I was more looking at it from the player side & not the financial side.
Needs moar Dukes
Sean Lee is the only tolerable thing about the Cowboys
by ICEICETHATGUY13 on Oct 18, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
i figured you thought dalton was bad but it appears he seems to be doing better than expected
i think they want more running so it protects him instead of throwing him to the wolves like colt mccoy who i think passed like 60X in one game. but when i was looking at the numbers today i realized how cheap dalton is compared to a veteran QB like mcnabb who will cost in the $6-8mm range and play about the same or worse.
It was the perfect storm for Cincy. The Raiders are actually off to a decent start and their only competent quarterback just went out for the year with an injury.
Brown might be a genius with this move. He got rid of a malcontent quarterback that never lived up to his potential and received two high draft picks for him.
Funny, Palmer always whined and complained in Cincy, and now it looks like he just got traded to Cincinnati West. I love it!
brown didn't give a f8ck and you can't negotiate with someone like that
he was prepared to just let carson stay in purgatory on principle, then campbell went down 2 days before the draft and a pot of gold formed in brown’s pockets. how come this kinda shit never happens to me?
every time i hold out and play hardball i get bupkis. well i guess even a blind squirell like mike brown eventually stumbles across a trove of acorns.
how did campbell go down
in april? He’s been most of this seasons….
I'm with you
How are guys like him and Snyder Million/Billionaires? Seems like things just fall in their lap no matter how bad their decisions are.
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
snyder got his start doing spring break trips in college
then he finally got into pharma with snyder communications and somehow he was able to leverage his $300-500mm into taking over the redskins. i still can’t figure out how he pulled it off.
but i think snyder is definitely better at business risk-taking than football risk-taking:)
Man, you really are a wealth of information
but living in the DC market, there is no way I can believe the guy is a competent businessman – the moves he has made over the years with the Skins have been laughable at times – how could he be that much different with his other business’s?
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You dont have to draft well to succeed in business :)
by steelerintexas on Oct 19, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I am just basing it on decision making ability, nothing else
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i know it's hard to believe BUT dan snyder is an exceptionally good businessman
if i remember correctly about a year before the dot com bubble burst he sold his company to ventiv communications and may have actually cashed out closer to a billion than $300-500mm. BUT even though he had the money i believe he borrowed most of the money to buy the skins and he has almost doubled the skins revenue since he got the team.
his personnel decisions are all-time lousy but even with all that wasted money on players like fat albert and mcnabb he has consistently been the most profitable NFL team making $50 to $100mm a year until jerry built joneszillatron stadium and captured over $400mm in annual revenue.
now you were right the first time
he’s amazing
But as far as a football general manager/shot caller, he has failed so far.
Those two qualities don’t necessarily go hand in hand. You can be good at one, and terrible at the other (Jerry Jones since around 96)
Don't mind me, I'm just jealous
Wish I owned the Steelers and had a ridonkulous house like his…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 20, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
lol i know, just being a smart ass.
it’s just, you always think you’re right about everything. Lol j/k
^ He's got the stats to back it up...
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
My only explanation
Al Davis’ punishment in the next life is to have to watch the Raiders pull really stupid stunts for the rest of eternity.
by steelerintexas on Oct 18, 2011 11:34 PM EDT reply actions
why is this dumb?
They are young all over the field. They have the pieces. And on top of that, their drafting hasn’t always been great. They don’t necessarily need first round picks any time soon, and if they have holes, as far as I’ve heard, they have money to get a FA
They got picks coming in for the departed players too, I’m not sure how high the pick is for Nnamdi, but I’m guessing it’s high.
On top of that they get an elite QB with some juice left, he’s very intelligent, and he’s recovered from his injuries now.
Yes, i understand you could make an argument that Palmer isn’t that good, but he was on the Bungles, he did better than most could have done. Could you imagine having two jack asses like Owens and Johnson barking in your ear after every play, even running plays bitching about how you’re not showing them love?
Or being on a team that values a criminal record more than solid play.
When you’re a professional like Palmer, and you want success, it sucks being on a team like the Bungles, who before this year, showed absolutely no interest in winning.
I’d really like to know why you think this is so dumb though?
The trade itself isnt dumb
The trade makes sense for them to do. The problem is they paid too much for a guy who has not played at a level worthy of a first round pick in a while. I would think a reasonable trade would be one second round pick that can turn into a first with a playoff win.
Of course I may be too accustomed to first round picks actually working out being a Steelers fan. You may have a point with the Raiders not drafting so great. If Ben was out for a season and we pulled this I would flip out.
by steelerintexas on Oct 19, 2011 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I would too if it was the Steelers
because they are making a commitment beyond this season in my opinion.
Maybe he did get too much. But the man who pulled the trigger knows Palmer. He obviously has more information than you or i. He seems to be convinced of the same thing that I believe. And that is that Palmer was an amazing quarterback in a horrible situation. He made this trade, because to him, with his VERY young team, it would be more likely to pay off than two 50/50 chances.
Palmer probably has a good 4-5 years left. He’s very dedicated to his craft, he’s a hard worker, and he’s very intelligent.
Let’s say they get 3-5 playoff wins before he retires. Wouldn’t you say that was worth 2 50/50 chances for a better player?
if they needed those picks...ok
but they don’t. They are loaded with very young talent, and have 5 or 6 compensatory picks coming from departed players.
I respect your opinion, but my opinion is that this was a win-win-win
The Bengals got two first rounders that, if wisely used, can set them up for future success
The Raiders won, because Carson is a proven QB (when not injured) that is coming in to an offense he pretty much already knows, with a lot to prove.
Carson won, because he doesn’t have to be associated with the kind of filth he did before.
Then, on top of that, the Bengals win twice. Because word is, Brown was hurt by Palmer’s actions. Look what he’s done since.
There are no stupid parties, or losers in this deal, in my opinion.
I hate to say it but I just am not convinced Palmer is what he used to be. If he is than you are probably correct. I just will need to see from him that he can still play at a high level for the rest of the season.
I realize he was playing for the Bungles and had to deal with TO and Ochocinco being idiots but it doesnt inspire my confidence that a rookie came into Cincinnati and is doing much better than Palmer did recently. I guess the only way to know for sure is to see what happens with the Raiders. If Palmer plays well the Raiders got a good deal, though I still argue they paid more than they should have.
I will also say im enjoying seeing someone capable of disagreeing without name calling and insulting others views.
by steelerintexas on Oct 19, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah
Neither of us know. But i do know that sometimes all someone needs is a fresh start. I believe the guy still has elite level talent, but we’ll see. After this season, I’m pretty sure we’ll know for sure whether Cincy was the problem, or if it was him. So we agree there.
About that rookie. He doesn’t have any of those problem players. He has a bunch of hungry rookie/younger guys. It was probably the right move to go with Dalton with what they have. But that’s not an indictment on Palmer in my opinion. It lets that team grow together, that can be a good thing.
As far as the last part, that’s not my style. I actually get offended when i try to make a counter point, and the other person gets mad and thinks i’m trying to argue or tell him he’s wrong. I just love debate, as long as it’s a mature debate.
Cheers mate!
I do have one question
Is there a level of success that would mean they didn’t pay too much?
Like, getting to the Super Bowl? Winning it? AFCCG?
Me personally, I think they gotta at least get the Super Bowl either this year or next. Like what the Bucs gave up to get Gruden, i think it was worth it. He brought home the bacon so to speak.
Im not sure what would be satisfactory. The Raiders should expect him to show up and win football games from day 1 and help carry the team. If Palmer can keep defenses honest and allow McFadden room to room to run that team can be deadly. But if Palmer cannot be effective than the picks they sent will have been a waste.
If Palmer gets the team to the playoffs it will be pretty successful. If they can get to the AFCCG or even the Super Bowl it was a great investment. But of course even if you have an elite QB and a good team you can still easily fall short of the Super Bowl so I dont like the idea of saying they have to reach a certain point to make the picks worth it. If Palmer proves he can still play at a high level for many years it will be a good trade.
by steelerintexas on Oct 19, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bungles are smart and Detroit is a contender
Hey Adolf, any flurries down there?
Dick, what would Woody (Hayes) say to you now: "He'd say, 'LeBeau, get your hair cut.'"
LOL
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Scarcity's a bitch
Let’s face it: in a league where Donovan McNabb is still a starter at QB, anyone holding a functional, proven QB gets paid big.
Teams are desperate. As in, starting Rex Grossman desperate. Remember him? Grossman’s the guy who couldn’t fend off Kyle Orton, he of the marvelous neck beard.
Truth is, Brown probably scored a better trade waiting until the season got rolling. Let a few functional starters fall by the wayside and see what happens to the offers.
Really wish we would have shopped Dixon
one extra 1st round pick would have been awesome!
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
he was put out on display this offseason – nobody wanted him. its bc he sucks, people everyhwere keep saying we should have traded him. they could have had him for 1.2mil, thats it. and nobody wanted a flyer on the boy
yeah, but Campbell going down was a reason to shop him
especially given the Raiders propensity to give up the house – we could have gotten lucky – can you show me a single person you know who thinks Palmer was worth 2 first rounders? I thought it was a good deal for them with 1, but 2? Wowzers…
"My mentality is singular in that I want to be world champs each and every year, so that's what we work toward. I have a tough time acknowledging levels of success short of that. That's just how I'm wired." - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Oct 19, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
FYI
There is a great press conference video introducing Palmer to the Bay Area media at
Raiders . com runs 30 minutes, both the coach and Palmer field some head on questions.
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