The Steelers Once Owned Bill Belichick, What Changed?
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 12:37 AM EDT
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PrintEven in a still dark room, if you whisper the name 'Bill Belichick' to members of Steeler Nation, even the most wide-eyed optimists of the tribe wake up in a cold sweat.
We know why. Bill Belichick has dealt the Steelers heart breaking playoff losses and humiliating regular season defeats.
Once it was different.
Lost amidst the tortured chapters of recent Steelers-Patriots history is the fact that the Steelers once owned Bill Belichick. Yes. Despite all of the losses to the Patriots, the Steelers are still 10-9 vs. Belichick.
What? Really?
The New England Patriots' visionary-innovator-mad scientist was also once the head coach of the Cleveland Browns where often proved himself worthy of the dunce cap.
Belichick failed completely in Cleveland and the Pittsburgh Steelers were his biggest nemesis. Let's look back at the other side of the Steelers-Belichick rivalry.
Belichick Benefits from the Cleveland Curse...
Steelers Digest Editor Bob Labriola insisted that Cleveland Municipal Stadium was cursed.
His essay pre-dates the internet but Belichick's first victory vs. the Steelers illustrates his point.
- Cleveland was at Pittsburgh's two. Carnell Lake LEVELED Leroy Hoard who flat on his back in the end zone. Bernie Kosar's pass ricocheted off of Keith Willis hand landing right on Hoard's chest for a Cleveland TD in a game whose final score was 17-14.
There's no uncanny explanation behind Belichick's home victory over the ‘92 Steelers. Unless you consider it "normal" that the only AFC Central quarterback to vanquish Cowher Power during its inaugural season wasn't Boomer Eaison, Bernie Kosar or Warren Moon, but rather Mike Tomzack.
In 1993, Pittsburgh totally dominated the Browns at Cleveland Stadium, yet Eric Metcalf single handedly defeated the Steelers by returning not one, but two punts for touchdowns.
Was this a first glimpse of Belichick's genius? Was it the alternating Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde pattern of Steelers special teams coaches? Or was it simply the Cleveland Curse?
Who knows? But in Belichick's next victory over the Steelers 7 years later he again exploited special teams' breakdowns....
Steelers End, and Begin Eras at Belichick's Expense
With three Lombardi trophies, Bill Belichick is the most likely current NFL coach to tie Chuck Noll's record of four.
Its slightly ironic then that Chuck Noll won his final game against Belichick's Browns on a day when reserve corner Richard Shelton picked off Bernie Kosar 3 times allowing the Emperor to call it a day with a 17-10 win over the Browns.
In 1992, Bill Cowher put an exclamation point on his first winning season, and Belichick's second consecutive losing one, as Barry Foster set the team's single season rushing record in a 23-13 season finale vs. Cleveland.
When Tied for First Place, Cut the Quarterback!
By 1993 the draft and the advent of free agency had given Belichick a chance to put his own thumb print on the Browns and, far from confirming any genius-in waiting, his moves would lead even the causal observer to question is basic football wisdom.
Belichick had no use for Bernie Kosar, the quarterback he'd inherited, and had already anointed Vinny Testaverde as starter, but the Steeler injured Testaverde in the Eric Metcalf game at Cleveland Stadium.
Now Bernie Kosar was a kid who wanted nothing more than to play for his home town Cleveland Browns. Kosar was a quarterback who went out and got the job done. He was the face of the franchise and the fans loved him. Art Modell thought of him as a son and signed Kosar to a long-term extension the previous summer.
Kosar returned to start but the Browns lost and, with Cleveland tied for first place in the AFC Central, Belichick cut Bernie Kosar and started Todd Philcox while Testaverde recovered.
Jerry Jones immediately signed Kosar as a back up and injuries forced Kosar into the game that very week.
Here's how Kosar and Philcox faired that Sunday:
- Todd Philcox: 9-20-84, 0 TD, 2 INT, L
- Bernie Kosar: 13-21-199, 1 TD, 0 INT, W
Philcox lost three straight killing Cleveland's chance to grab a division title that had been ripe for the taking.
Two years later, in 1995 the Browns found themselves at 3-4 yet still tied for first place in the AFC Central. Vinny Testaverde was the reigning AFC offensive player of the month and had played well despite a 3 game losing streak.
Belichick benched Testaverde in favor of Eric Zeier. Zeier won his first start, lost his next, and had to go against Dick LeBeau in his third...
...Greg Lloyd unloaded on the poor rookie sacking him twice and intercepting him once, with Ray Seals and Levon Kirkland also netting sacks. Zeier went 7 of 19 for all of 67 yards as Pittsburgh pulverized the Browns 20-3.
The Steelers ended Zeier's starting days, and two weeks later the Steelers played their last game at the old Cleveland Stadium. In many ways it was the final game of the Steelers-Browns rivalry and Belichick's boys gave it their all, but it was not enough as the Steelers defeated them 20-17.
Cowher Power Surges, Belichick's Browns Bumble
Belichick's musical quarterbacks escapades book-ended four of the finest games the Steelers ever played against him or the Browns.
Pittsburgh finished the 1993 season at home vs. Cleveland, needing a win and help to make the playoffs. Arguably, it was Greg Lloyd's career game.
Down 9-3 at the half, Greg Lloyd challenged his offense, offering to play in their place, and then backed up his words with actions. The fact that he'd missed the previous two games with a torn hamstring failed to slow him.
Lloyd dominated Cleveland, leading the team in tackles, making one sack, forcing two fumbles, and saving a touchdown by coming from out of no where to running down a ball carrier. The offense scored twice, finishing the game 16-9 and sending Belichick home with a second consecutive 7-9 record.
Week two of the 1994 season took Pittsburgh to Cleveland where The Curse seemed in full effect as The Browns opened a quick 10-0 lead. But then Darren Perry took over, intercepting Vinny Testaverde 3 times. Rod Woodson also intercepted him once, and by the end of the day Vinny was clueless about the coverages he was throwing into. The Steelers won after scoring 17 unanswered points.
Belichick's Browns recovered and took a 10-4 record into week 15 at Three Rivers Stadium with the AFC Central title in the balance. Yancy Thigpen and Barry Foster got the Steelers up 14-0 quickly. While the Browns did get 7 on the board before the half, Steelers the defense completely smothered Cleveland for a 17-7 victory.
But Belichick's Browns were back at Three Rivers for the AFC Divisional Playoffs after knocking off Parcell's Patriots in the wild card.
Before the game, Belichick bragged that he was going to "run between the tackles," never mind that Leroy Hoard, had only rushed for 40 yards in two games vs. the Steelers.
Darren Perry picked Testaverde off early setting the tone for the Steelers. The Steelers were up 24-3 at the half, and won 29-9 after Carnell Lake sacked Testaverde for a safety late in the 4th quarter. (For the record, Leroy Hoard gained 8 yards on 3 carries that day.)
It was one of the Steelers most dominating playoff wins of the post-Noll era.
What Changed?
For all of their glory at Belichick's expense in Cleveland, the Steelers fortunes against him in New England have been decidedly different.
Why?
Tom Brady is the easy and most compelling answer. Hall of Fame Quarterbacks make even imbecilic coaches look respectable, for a while at least. (See Troy Aikman and Barry Switzer.)
But it goes beyond Brady.
Bob Kraft is a better, less meddlesome owner than Art Modell. But Belichick made several signature blunders, such as cutting Kosar, over Modell's protests.
In New England, Belichick drafts smartly and makes savvy if often ruthless personnel decisions. Only his ruthlessness was on display in Cleveland.
Belichick also innovates in New England in more ways no one over thought of, such as using linebackers as receivers. That imagination was absent in Cleveland.
No matter how you slice it, Belichick is not the same coach the Steelers once kicked around. He now causes serious problems for the Steelers.
Why do you think what is true now wasn't then?
Can the Steelers do anything to turn the tables?
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He started cheating, that is one big change
Now with your history i understand how a frustated guy he must be, to did what he did, nevertheless he should have been banned from coaching in the NFL.
"Everytime NE Patriots lose, Football wins", myself
by rhino-mike on Oct 27, 2011 12:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree, he should have been removed & banned forever from the league. Goodell buried it for the sake of the league image & his great personal friend, Pats owner Bob Kraft.
I agree, Belicheat got a slap on the wrist
That was a total white wash by the league office. Earlier that same year Wade Wilson, the Cowboys QB’s coach, got suspended for four games for testing positive for an illegal supplement.
That’s four games for breaking a rule that has ZERO impact on the game.
Belicheat didn’t even miss a pay check.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm very suspicious
of the 2001 and 2004 playoff results along with the 2001-2006 regular season outcomes because of the cheating. That said, the Pats did win easily in 2007 and 2010, while the Steelers crushed New England in 2008. Of course, Brady was hurt in ‘08, but I’m convinced the great Steelers defense that year would have won regardless.
Agree with the premise of the column, the emergence of Brady, and the strong organization of the Pats have played a key role in Belichick’s success. While the NFL and national media seemed to be tentative in pursuing the Spygate story, I think more information could be forthcoming years from now.
Goodell Burned the Tapes
I agree, the cheating certainly didn’t help the Steelers, but I am reluctant to use it as an excuse, as they spanked us pretty badly in 07 and 10 as you say.
As for more information, I doubt that happens as Goodell destroyed the evidence.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions
2001 and 2004 playoff results
those were the days when all the announcers would say, “It’s nearly impossible to beat Belichick twice in a row!!” Later we learned why.
But over the years he figured out the Steelers D and the Patriots execute against its weaknesses.
If memory serves...
and believe me, my memory serves me poorly, but I recall all the players stating how it seemed the Pats new the play call every single time…the Steelers went out and hired someone to be a QC coach because they figured they were tipping the play by how the lined up. And let’s not forget that awful use of replay cost us that game as well. The blocked FG was lateralled forward several yards but dumb a$$ Cowher had already burned the challenges.
by steelerwheeler on Oct 28, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t believe that Bill Belicheat wasn’t removed from coaching after that sypgate scandal. Goodell severely punishes players for the their conduct outside the league but gives Belicheat a slap on the wrist for his egregious conduct concerning the nfl…..whaaa?
Sometimes I have a hard time deciding which team I hate more, the cheatriots or the ratbirds. This week, patriots 1 ravens 2….next week ravens 1 patriots 2.
by ChitownSteelerfan on Oct 27, 2011 1:18 AM EDT reply actions
the scandal
probably could have been as big as the Black Sox thing. Goodell did what he had to do for the good of the NFL…so smart fans know that all Bellichick/Pats are undeserving of their rings.
by steelerwheeler on Oct 28, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
In fairness.
who could trust Kosar? he can’t even be trusted to keep his daughter from taking loads in the face for money
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by FrankWyt on Oct 27, 2011 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
lol
wowzers
Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)
by Michael Bean on Oct 27, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
admittedly, that was a low blow. I just figured I was in good company for it.
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no, her name is lexxi silver
just google it
his daughter is a porn star. got her own site and everything
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just look it up
you don’t have to take my word for it. google is awesome
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Ok
Unless you were surfing porn, how would you know Lexxi was Kosar’s daughter? I mean, I guess you could have been reading up on Bernie – and if that’s the case, I’m sorry.
i don't remember how i found it, and no it wasn't
from surfing porn. Someone brought it to my attention, or maybe Kosar’s name was in the “trending” section of yahoo and clicking that brought something up about a failed business adventure of his, and further clicks told me that, then i looked up her site to see what she looked like etc…
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venture, not adventure..
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actually i remember how i found it
there was a story about Mark Rypien (Super Bowl mvp from the Skins)‘s daughter that played for the lingerie football league, in the comments sections, one person made a comment that said “dad should be proud” someone followed that with "it’s not as bad as Bernie Kosar’s daughter. I investigated.
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never underestimate
the power of boredom
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The important questions?
Is it any good and if so where’s the link?
by steelerwheeler on Oct 28, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
obviously she's not going to call herself
lexxi kosar. she doesn’t hate him that much lol
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Agreed
Any man that allows his daughter to do that, or creates the environment that creates an adult with the affinity to such behavior, you should not trust to run anything.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 27, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh come on.
You can’t blame that entirely on her father. You make it seem like he has total control over another human being. Regardless of the "environment. And you can’t control every environment, ’cause then you would be a tyrant.
you can't entirely blame it on him
but you have to wonder what kind of environment was provided for her by him and the wife.
there aren’t that many porn stars with a solid family life
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I've known
Many that came from a solid family background only to find themselves in questionable situations. And even run with it afterward. It’s a decision for some, and for others it’s a bad upbringing and bad choices. Either way, unless we know the facts, blaming Kosar is jumping to conclusions.
we can leave it at that
i mean, the original comment was just a joke.
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I understand
I was responding to Tanno. Kind of a knee jerk reaction, and surprising at that. Tanno is usually very level headed.
3 words
Tongue In Cheek
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 28, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
On second thought
those are probably not the best 3 words to have in a discussion like this.
lol
Wasn’t being too serious about that one. Like the father was soley to blame. I know there are other factors that are involved. Just was going along with the original comment.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 28, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
weren't a few other teams doing the same or similar shit?
you are allowed to film sidelines, just not from anywhere on the field. other teams were warned about this crap too including oakland which is not surprising.
there is a reason that this whole thing was buried and i believe it was Las Vegas because if we started going back and looking at who really cheated and how many games might have been affected then that might cause gamblers to bet less $ unless of course they had inside information on which teams were the best cheaters.
money talks and bullshit walks, i know a few guys who have done very similar things to belichick in business to get to the top. and by the top i mean like $500mm net worth and almost in forbes 400. their desire to “win big” pushed them to do unethical stuff that i would have never done in a million years even for a billion bucks. but i don’t have $500mm now either.
in America a lot of people cheat if they think they can get away with it, that is why the NFL basically made NE an example and drew a line in the sand going forward. IF they were going to make this a public scandal and fire Belichick then this would go to the NLRB and be appealed possibly to Supreme Court. While it would have been an awesome drama for fans it would have likely exposed more cheating going way back by many teams.
That is one thing the NFL cannot have, fans knowing that cheating is commonplace.
If you think i am full of shit then why did baseball try to cover up the steroid scandal? And how did it get out? Did MLB release the names or break the story? NFW, it was that knucklehead Canseco who leaked it.
Maybe Belichick should have been fired for cheating to make an even stronger example but it would have gotten extremely ugly had that happened. AND if you look closely at the CBA Goodell pretty much threw the book at Belichick, those are the max, max penalties under the old CBA without Goodell going off the reservation.
Remember, Goodell has no real power, he owns nothing, therefore it had to be the other owners who wanted this covered up. IF a few other powerful owners wanted this to go down to a verdict they could have garnered support from their fellow NFL owners and gone balls out. This did not happen and I suspect that is because Owners wanted nothing to do with a public scandal.
So in this case it probably was a conspiracy theory, Owners telling Goodell destroy the tapes ASAP and sweep it under the rug because this looks bad on the whole league not just the Cheatriots.
by kk99 on Oct 27, 2011 5:02 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Pretty much.
Except Goodell does call the shots when it comes to enforcing the rules already in place, whatever he says goes. The owners can’t do anything about that, except kick him out when his term expires.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
naw, goodell can be got at the drop of a hat
i think it just takes the normal owner’s vote of like 24 which is 75%, i doubt it is a simple majority b/c 17 votes my be too easy to get.
Let's make a deal.
We’ll drop the cheating remarks and the NE fans can drop the rapist remarks. Neither are relevant to either this week’s game or this post.
And thanks for the post, Hombre. Very interesting stuff. Clearly hard work has led to continued growth in Belichick as a coach and strategist. There are plenty of people that are happy to just be good enough to get by – Belichick clearly isn’t one of them.
It also helps put into context Belichick’s comment earlier this week that the Steelers are running the same defense that they were in the early 90s. I guess if he’s been working on it since then it isn’t too surprising that he’s figured out some clever ways to beat it. Let’s hope that Dick LeBeau has a few surprises up his sleeve for Sunday.
"If you're not getting better, I don't care what business you're in, you're a dead man. I try to look critically at the mistakes that I make and try to learn from them, like our team does." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 27, 2011 9:58 AM EDT reply actions
I'd take that deal.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The cheating is relevant to this post, and until BB is no longer their head coach it’s relevant in every Patriots game.
The rapist remarks have no relevance, what may or may not have happened off the field has nothing to do with the outcome of past or future games. One other major difference between these two issues, the cheating was proven & punished, the rape ‘charges’ were allegations.
How?
Video recording from unauthorised locations was banned in 06, not previously. Recording signals has never been illegal, and neither has taping them, provided the camera is in the right spot in the stadium. The camera wasn’t where it’s meant to be on the Pats’ sidelines (a matter of yards, not like it was peering over Mangini’s shoulder at his playsheet), and that’s what they were punished for. As the Jets camera footage from a few weeks ago showed, you can stand on the sidelines with an IMAX camera pointed at the opposing coaches, as long as you’re standing outside the dotted line (and, more to the point, hadn’t kicked that teams cameras out of your stadium last game you played against them).
And it’s not really relevant anyway. He lost to Pittsburgh with some bad Browns teams (not necessarily as bad as nowadays, but they weren’t mediocre), beat them with a couple of okay Browns teams (and lucky plays, as the OP mentioned), and has beaten them with some pretty good Patriots teams – ask your old coach if he thinks they were good because of some tapes that never existed (Glazer has copies of the Spygate tapes, and he’s never shown any Steelers footage), or because they were just better.
And I haven’t seen anyone bring up the rape issue yet.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
There's a kid
who I think is probably about 12 or so who keeps putting it into his comments. It gets old. As does, I’m sure, the cheating stuff. I wasn’t a fan during Spygate, so I guess it’s easier for me to not care about it, but honestly I don’t see the point of bringing it up over and over. I’m willing to guess that it would never even be mentioned if things hadn’t been so one-sided.
"If you're not getting better, I don't care what business you're in, you're a dead man. I try to look critically at the mistakes that I make and try to learn from them, like our team does." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 27, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
The rape thing was mentioned in a few posts made by a troll, judging by his history his one day of fun is over & we won’t see him again.
http://www.wpxi.com/sports/16202248/detail.html
“Former Patriots employee, Matt Walsh, has turned over eight tapes to the NFL that show the Patriots stealing coaching signals from five opponents between 2000 and 2002.
One of the opponents was the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 AFC Championship game, which the Steelers lost."
I’m not gonna waste the time digging back to find all of that again, but during that period almost every complaint made to the rules committee had to do with the Patriots, & there were plenty of remarkably similar allegations regarding ‘radio’ issues.
Belichick has done this his entire coaching career, or at least it’s known he did with the Giants & the Patriots. Oddly enough there’s nothing that shows he did it with Cleveland, & that’s the one place he had no success. Like it or not it will always be attached to his legacy, & it will cast it’s ugly shadow over the franchise as long as he is the coach.
Can anyone prove he still isn’t cheating in some way? There will always be those who doubt his integrity, & they have legitimate reason to feel that way.
You want me to show you the original article, and the apology the paper was forced to print for the libel?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
For the "walkthrough tapes" article?
Which you didn’t mention. Too eager.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I can give you another link that shows there was a tape of the Steelers, I thought that was pretty widely known.
From 01. 02, actually.
Seeing as they won that game because of special teams, it really helped, didn’t it?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Porter's quote
“They knew all our plays” Its a big advantage, if you know exactly where the run is going to go, where the pass is going to go, etc. I don’t think Belichick wins 2 of those 3 superbowls had he not stolen signals.
Why, because the Steelers were vastly superior?
Last I checked, defense adjusts to what the offense has, not the other way round.
And why didn’t Cowher/Lebeau change the signals then? If there’s the possibility they’re compromised, you do it.
And let’s not forget offensive playcalls are radio transmitted. the Pats were in trouble for filming the only signals available – the Steelers’ defensive calls. Not sure how that hepls the Pats D stop the Steelers O, but whatever.
And if you want to refer specifically to the Bettis stop, everyone that knew how to spell football knew what was coming there.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I will say
that if you think the competitive pendulum of the game of football is swung simply by video tape and not by the blood, sweat and tears and execution of the actual players, well, you really don’t know a damned thing about football.
Can I Scream?
by Adam Fox on Oct 27, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wait a minute now
you’re telling me that being able to know exactly what’s coming isn’t helpful?
i can understand you guys get sick of defending yourselves against it, but the kind of stuff you make yourself believe is hilarious.
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I never said it wouldn't have been helpful
but if you think that’d be the ultimate deciding factor in a football game of all things, you’re sorely mistaken.
Tell me, in the age of the audible on both sides of the ball, would it really be possible to predict an entire game plan with 100% accuracy, anyways?
I think the most vitriol comes from Steelers fans, who think Spygate was somehow responsible for bowing out of the playoffs in the early 2000s. I think of any of you played a down of football in your lives, you’d come to the same conclusion all of us do: your team got ouplayed.
Can I Scream?
by Adam Fox on Oct 28, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
League statement:
“So, again, these are tapes of opponents’ coaching signals. It’s what we already knew and, as [ESPN] reported back in September, Belichick admitted to the commissioner [Roger Goodell] that he had engaged in this practice dating back to 2000.”
So they had the tapes, but what was on the tapes was never illegal.
Again, having film of whatever you want (signals, blimp, cheerleaders) was never illegal (and while it may have been the league’s intent to make it so in 06, the rule was so badly written they might as well have left it alone, it changed that little), but having the camera in a certain spot made it so.
So yes, he broke a rule by filming from an unauthorised location, but the whole thing was blown so vastly out of proportion to the actual offence (again, filming from the other side of the dotted line, not the filming itself), and all the misinformation flying around, that it’s almost impossible to keep track of what actually happened and what the crime really was.
The “radio games” and listening devices are all rumours, mostly propagated by journalistic hacks like Peter King.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Goodell issued the heaviest punishment possible under the letter of the rules, that wasn’t for a camera being a few feet out of place.
Goodell’s comment when he walked out of the meeting with BB, ’’I dont believe a word he said".
And?
The rule says so much is illegal, and under the rule, filming is not illegal (in general).
You have a link for the quote? Because otherwise it’s just your words on the screen.
This is the same commissioner who hands out fines to your team that are vastly over the top of the “crime”, and yet you’re using his judgement as proof they cheated? You think it’s possible the fines came about because Goodell was pissed at Belichick, just like he seemingly was at Harrison, Roethlisberger, etc?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think he went easy on him due to his close personal relationship with Bob Kraft, & under pressure from the other owners. They moved to protect the leagues image of integrity, they would have only suffered if more came to light. It was in the past, those games were played & the results couldn’t be altered. He hit BB with everything he could & buried the damage.
He went easy on him?
He fined him (and the Pats organisation, let’s not forget) the maximum amount possible.
They tried to sweep it under the rug, because otherwise it would have come out that it was much ado about nothing. Goodell played it wrong, the NFL played it wrong, the Jets were just getting theirs back, and then Mangini said he didn’t want it to turn into what it did…
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If it was much ado about nothing, then that’s what the punishment would have been, nothing. They would have jumped at the chance to prove without a doubt there was nothing gained, instead they destroyed all the evidence.
Who was actually doing something illegal.
Filming isn’t, and never has been.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
He was fined for having a cameraman stand ten feet left in front of where he's meant to be,
And for pissing off Goodell.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The penalising body had the evidence, and had already decided on it, though.
Think of it like a judge destroying the evidence after he’s made his verdict. Doesn’t change anything.
And the footage is still out there. Jay Glazer shows it at parties.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
You’ve convinced yourself P*ts fan, too bad you won’t ever convince anyone that doesn’t pull for your team. That is your teams/coachs legacy, they will always be regarded as cheaters who never won a title legitimately. The doubt of their integrity will remain until you have a new head coach.
They can be regarded as cheaters if you want to do so.
Fortunately, the court of public opinion doesn’t decide which Super Bowls were robbed from whom.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
They botched the handling of it,
Because their decisions allowed conspiracists enough to go on.
As I’ve said before, there’s never been anything illegal about filming signals. So they were fined 750k and a 1st round pick for what’s akin to tampering – breaking a league rule, not a football rule.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
They buried it for the sake of the league. If the tapes proved no advantage was gained there was no reason to destroy them, if anything they would have released them to ensure the perception of the integrity of the games wasn’t marred.
They had to destroy them
because (a) they leaked, and (b) the media made them into a huge deal, bigger than what it should have been. It would have blown up had it become evident that other teams had their hands in the jar as well.
Cowher tried it (he said it provided no advantage he was aware of), Shanahan did it, Jimmy Johnson, the Schottenheimer Chiefs, the Jets…
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If it gave no advantage why bother? Maybe the other teams weren’t matching them up with audibles that were being taped on the field, or intercepted via radio signals.
You’re so sure taping was legal:
“In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that “videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controversy
The Patriots were caught taping the Jets in week 1 of the 2007 season.
Yep, Wikipedia.
Want to just make up a rule and type it here? It’ll be as accurate as Wiki.
Here‘s the rule:
The “Game Operations Manual” states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." The manual states that “all video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.”
If you read the actual quoted rule in the box on the side (the rest being, of course, ESPN’s addition), there’s nothing in there about filming being absolutely 100% against the rules, it just sets out a list of areas that are valid filming locations. The Jets a few weeks ago showed you can film from the sidelines, so that’s fine too. And that’s what Belichick told Goodell – you can interpret the rule in a way that you can film, and Goodell knew that Belichick was bending the rules to suit him.
And why would ESPN leave out the part about stealing signals being illegal? That seems like a pretty big oversight to me…
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407E6D7163CF930A25756C0A96E9C8B63
2006: The Memo
September Ray Anderson, the N.F.L’s senior vice president for football operations, wrote in a memo distributed to all teams: ‘’Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.’’
Seems to be the same exact, accuaret quote, how many other identical ones do I need to provide before you try to bend it to suit your agenda?
It was made clear to all teams in 2006 that taping signals during games was against the rules.
No, read it again.
It says videotaping signals is only illegal if you’re not in these spots.
And teams (or rather, organisations) can film legally from the sidelines, as the Jets proved a few weeks ago.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Soh wait, it was fine to do before the '06 season?
You mean, when everyone else was doing it and we won 3 superbowls? Thanks for the info.
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it
The cheating would be relevant
if the Patriots hadn’t continued to beat us after it stopped. They did, and so while we may like to put an asterisk next to their wins during the cheating years, it doesn’t explain what happened last fall. I was at that game and the Patriots were the better team in every way on that night, as much as it pains me to say it. I don’t necessarily expect them to be the better team this week, but I can’t help fearing that, given our recent history. If NE doesn’t win it won’t be because Belichick didn’t come up with some pretty clever stuff.
"If you're not getting better, I don't care what business you're in, you're a dead man. I try to look critically at the mistakes that I make and try to learn from them, like our team does." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 27, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Running the Same Defense Since the '90's
I guess that’s the point. Belichick clearly is someone who can learn and grow. His past life as a total failure in Cleveland vs. what he’s done in NE has long been an interest of mine. But it wasn’t until I actually pulled everything together to write this article that I saw how completely the Steelers had dominated him.
The funny thing is, few people in the press even seem to remember his Cleveland days, and those are rarely addressed.
I only so one comment on this once, where he admitted that one difference between now and then was that with New England he’s strived to maintain one standard for everyone. That’s a great insight, but it does not explain is sudden personnel selection savvy, the innovation etc…
I’d hoped that we’d have more contributions long these lines, but most of the posts revolve around Belichick cheating.
I am with you there, which is why I made no mention of it in the article. While I do think the league slapped him on the wrist, I don’t like it when Steelers fans use it as an excuse. Illegal taping didn’t cause our guys to forget to block for kicks in ’01, nor did they make Ben play like a rookie.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Coaches develop too.
They learn, like players, from when they do the wrong thing, more often than when they do the right thing. Robert Kraft learnt what to do and what not to do from how he managed the Parcells and Carroll eras, and the two happened to reach the optimum developmental stage at the same time (if they’d signed Belichick after the 96 Super Bowl as they looked at doing, things are probably different now).
As for why the Cleveland era is mostly ignored, it’s probably because of how it ended.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Do They Learn?
You’re right, people do learn. but not as often as you’d think.
How many times has Dan Henning been fired? How many head coaching jobs has Wade Philips had? Ditto Norv Turner.
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
There was more than taping, the ‘radio games’ they played, including mic’ing up a defensive player to record audibles, were probably more helpful in impacting games in their favor.
When it first came to light Goodell said he had reviewed the tapes & there was nothing in them that would have given the Patriots a competitive egde. When asked why he destroyed them so quickly, his response was he didn’t want them to fall into anyone else’s hands & give them an advantage. It might all come out some day, but to me a if you want to see how great a coach is, look at his ‘tree’. Bellicheats isn’t impressive at all, besides including another coach caught cheating/taping. Bill has done this his entire career, even with the Giants.
Don’t expect Goodell to be consistent or fair. Benson was CONVICTED & got a one game suspension, Ben was never even CHARGED & he got 4 games off.
Like your defense of your QB,
Where’s your evidence of these radio games? The mic’ing up by the organisation (NFL Films does that, broadcasts do that, the Phins bought some broadcast tape and stole the Pats’ audibles in 06, the Giants did it in 07 too)?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-02-21-competition-committee_N.htm
“Such a process might provide the type of advantage former Patriots linebacker Ted Johnson described during an interview with USA TODAY shortly after he retired in 2005.
“Every now and then I’d get a sheet, one hour before the game, with a list of audibles for our opponent,” Johnson said in November 2005. “I don’t know how, but they just showed up.”
http://www.secsportsfan.com/radio-communication-is-the-real-spygate-issue.html
http://www.secsportsfan.com/spygate-more-radio-communications-issues.html
During that time span virtually every complaint made to the rules committe inolved the Patriots, & there were numerous & remarkably similar complaints regarding radio issues. It was speculated that they jammed and/or intercepted other teams radio frequencies.
They also used their own as opposed to the one they were supposed to use, & to their advantage by leaving it open until the snap, not shutting it off 20 seconds beforehand like the rule dictates. In an interview Flutie recalled picking up a QB helmet with a mic installed & listening to Brady getting calls from the OC right up until the snap.
There is plenty out there but nothing you won’t dismiss. I would hate it if my team had that tarnishing the only successful stretch of their franchise but you have BB to thank for that, & for many fans that doubt will remain until he retires.
SEC Sports fan? No credibility.
Read the comments. Everything I’ve said, people have brought up there, and yet the author just keeps asking the same questions as the last commentor just answered. I’d almost think he did it just for the lulz.
As for the Ted Johnson quote, I just showed you – you can get the broadcast tapes, with the audibles on them, and if your staff is diligent enough you can write them down.
They also used their own as opposed to the one they were supposed to use, & to their advantage by leaving it open until the snap, not shutting it off 20 seconds beforehand like the rule dictates. In an interview Flutie recalled picking up a QB helmet with a mic installed & listening to Brady getting calls from the OC right up until the snap.
Proof, other than the idiot running SECSF saying it’s true? And all coaches can talk to each other, so if that one’s true, how do we know he was talking to Brady (the NFL shuts off the headsets with 15 seconds on the playclock, not that the coaches or the team, so that one’s going to be tough to get around), and it’s entirely plausible Brady was snapping the ball with, say, 20 seconds on the clock as well.
And don’t you think the Pats having their own radios, headsets, transmitting equipment would be a big deal to the NFL, and yet we’ve heard nothing about it?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
“The key element was a statement by Dan LeBatard of ESPN who reported that Doug Flutie has expressed surprised after his first game as a Patroit backup that his helmet was receiving messages after the NFL’s prescribed 20 second cutoff before the play clock expired. There have been other published reports about NFL teams complaining about irregularities in the use of radio frequencies at Foxborough. I don’t have specific sources to cite, but they were frequent at the time that Spygate was being reported.
Lebatard went dark on this comment and never repeated it. Flutie probably didn’t realize the controversy he was creating and never commented publicly."
Read more from original site: http://www.secsportsfan.com/spygate-more-radio-communications-issues.html#ixzz1bzkT7gwO
If you want you can look up the complaints made to the rules committee, how often & how many related to the Patriots & radio issues during that span. Old news to me but part of the BB/Patriots legacy forever.
Kraft should have fired him when it came to light. IT wouldn’t have wiped away the stain of what happened during his tenure but it would have sent a clear message & ended future doubt/speculation.
DOES FLUTIE KNOW ABOUT PATS MISDEEDS?: I Was made aware of an interesting comment by Dan LeBatard, the ESPN talk show host out of Miami who is also a columnist for the Miami Herald. In his Q&A forum in the Herald someone asks him the question below. The tail end of his response (in bold), which gets into the cheating of the Patriots mentions Doug Flutie and his alleged knowledge of it while he played there in the final year of his career in 2005. It’s all hearsay I guess so take it for what it’s worth. But this Matt Walsh stuff may just be the tip of the iceberg. Reporters in New England are really going to be digging now.
Q: Doesn’t Arlen Specter & the US Senate have more important concerns than how the NFL handles its disciplinary matters? Is this what they need all of that tax money for?
Pete, Lebanon, PA 2/01/08
A: Yes, but if congress is going to be involved in steroids it should be involved in this too….its the same crap….i’ll never understand why people make the distinction between steroids and spygate….it is the same thing…..what do you hear with spygate? everyone does it. well, yeah, but same goes for steroids, right? we are now learning that EVERYONE DID IT….and yet steroids creates hysteria and everyone in football talks about spygate being overblown….they won three super bowls by three points…it wouldn’t take much of an advantage to be a HUGE advantage….this story have been overcovered but underreported….i’ve heard second hand about doug flutie being amazed when he got there that the plays were being piped into his helmet warning brady what was coming…..we’ve tried to talk to flutie on our radio show about it but he hangs up on my producer…..
Dan Le Batard 2/04/08
http://throwback.buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=2932
The fact (unsubstantiated, but heavily rumored and traced to individuals close to the Patriot organization) that the Patriots were communicating on another frequency (unavailable to the NFL) was key to the concealment of their scheme for stealing the other teams defensive signals AND communicating them to their QB.
The conspiracy of silence around this allegation, after it was reported several times (including Chris Mortensen of ESPN) even PRIOR TO Spygate, seems to confirm that the NFL was covering up what was really happening. They were in a perfect position to substantiate and follow up on this violation of NFL rules in many games, yet it seems as if the Patriots use of their own frequency was dismissed as a technical snafu or team preference.
Read more from original site: http://www.secsportsfan.com/radio-communication-is-the-real-spygate-issue.html#ixzz1bzmD9Ziw
The Three Super Bowls by three points argument? Really?
Isn’t this the same team that needed a miracle catch to overcome the Cardinals? In the biggest mismatch in Super Bowl history (as your own put it)?
The last Super Bowl won in dominating fashion featured a head coach of one team with a great defense, playing against his old team running the same plays.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
You can call it a ‘miracle’ catch if you will, most regard it as one of the top game winning drives in SB history. Has Brady ever had to lead his team down to score a TD to win a SB? yes, what happened? He failed/
Nah, his defense then allowed 5 separate miracles to happen on the subsequent drive.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
He got the ball back after the Giants scored, he had a chance to drive down & win the game with a TD, he failed.
Because Moss dropped one that hit him in the hands.
Roethlisberger’s drive didn’t start with 30 seconds left, either. And even that (apart from the 2nd to last throw that should have been the game winner) was Holmes and the Cardinals defense deciding to let him run for 4 yards with the ball.
And then a replay assistant deciding to be a hero, and not let the ref do his job (the Warner fumble/tuck rule)
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Warner fumbled & Bens drive was recently ranked the 4th best postseason game winning drive in NFL history:
The #1 drive was the day the Brady failed.
Wow, Bleacher Report. Got another, more arbitrary ranking of SB drives?
Here’s a hint: every site you see ranking SB drives.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
It’s ranked #2 there, of course they are all subjective but you see a consensus that it’s considered one of the best of all time.
The consensus on BB is also just as clear.
I don't have a problem with either ranking.
Manning deserved his drive, Roethlisberger (or rather Holmes) deserved his drive…
An you know what? Every single Lombardi they have is just as clean as Belichick’s.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, it wasn’t a perfect throw over 3 defenders.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=holmes+super+bowl+catch&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1024&bih=574&tbm=isch&tbnid=gqZ5Lq8IP9pqWM:&imgrefurl=http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/2009-Issues/psr0903/09030102.html&docid=YocY6GyjN1gglM&imgurl=http://www.pghsports.com/2009-Issues/psr0903/SuperBowl-Santonio_Holmes.jpg&w=375&h=500&ei=44GpTu-YM9GftwfyqpAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=238&sig=108417731416262974507&page=3&tbnh=168&tbnw=149&start=16&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:16&tx=79&ty=39
Sorry, but BB’s leg*cy, like every lombardi the P*triots have is forever tarnished in the minds of the overwhelming majority of NFL fans.
And if I wanted to,
I could say every Lombardi the Steelers have is tainted, what with steroid allegations, the ref saying he blew the game, and a catch possibly not being a catch at all. Doesn’t mean that’s the case.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Steroids were LEGAL in the 70s, & there were only a few on our team that used them. The Raiders were the poster boys for steroid abuse.
The ref didnt say he blew the game, & multiple comprehensive reviews of that game & the calls in question show the outcome wasn’t affected, if anything, the Seahawks GAINED points off the mistakes made in their favor.
Holme’s clearly had both feet down with possession:
http://online.wsj.com/media/0201bowl58_E_20090201222136.jpg
It really doesn’t matter what you say, you’re just another BB/P*ts fan & those are the only people who don’t regard his tenure as tarnished by cheating.
I’m done, enjoy your day, sorry but you will never be able to convince anyone outside of NE or not already a Pats fan that the only time your franchise won anything is the same time it was PROVEN you cheated.
Steroids were legal.
But teams couldn’t just hand them out – there were restrictions.
You see the similarities here?
One bad decision has a flow on effect for the rest of the game. And not sure how you can say the Seahawks gained points, they had a TD taken off and the Steelers had one allowed to stand, both on “interesting” calls.
As for the Holmes catch, that was a catch because the official there (even though he wasn’t) ruled it a catch. He calls it the other way, replay can’t overturn that either and in all likelihood the game goes to OT. But it goes down in the book as a catch, and a Steelers win, regardless of what everyone thinks about it.
And, as I’ve said the whole way through, they were proven to be videotaping from outside a designated area after the rule change in 06.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Steroids were legal in the 70’s, & we only had a few using them, the Raiders were the poster boys for steroid abuse.
That game has been reviewed many times & none of the bad calls affected the outcome, if anything the Seahawks benefitted more than they suffered.
Homles had both feet down, plenty of pics show that clearly.
Not that it matters, since it's a catch now and forever,
But the only way that’s a catch is because it was ruled a catch on the field. That could just as easily have been ruled incomplete.
So you’re saying someone else was doing it? Yeah, the Raiders are common knowledge, doesn’t mean the Steelers weren’t doing it. Again, see the similarities?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
And how did SEC Sports Fan come by this without, say,
ESPN, or the two Boston papers, or even the New York Post reporting it?
That site is akin to 9/11 “truth” sites.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
How did various other reporters, including Chris Mortenson, report on this BEFORE spygate if this allegation wasn’t being made?
Again, you can bury your head in the ground or defend BB until the day you die. It’s not going to change the fact that the clear majority of people share the common belief that he cheated & anything the P*triots won during that stretch is tainted.
And it's just that, a belief.
Those Lombardis are still polished up in the Hall, the NFL says they’re legitimate, even Wikipedia says the Pats won those games.
And teams complain to the rules committee all the time. That’s how it works.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
No, it was proven BB cheated (broke the rules) & was punished for doing so, that will never change no matter what YOU choose to believe.
This thread is a perfect example, there are 7 people who voiced their opinions on this, 6 have one opinion, yours, a P*ts fan, is the only one that differs. Go ask around on other teams boards, or just look up threads that have to do with this subject, about the only people who don’t view the Patriots & BB this way are P*ts fans, the rest see it the same way myself & the other 5 in this thread do.
Limited sample, don't you think?
Steelers site and all…
Perhaps it’s because we’re the only ones that don’t get to just spout “cheats!” without having to find several (legitimate) sources to back it up.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Like I said search ANYWHERE on the entire internet, you will find the exact same opinion.
Plenty of legitimate sources that prove BB was fined for cheating by the NFL.
He cheats any way he can, always has, always will:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3408450
ucker continued to contend the Patriots used injured players illegally during an interview on ESPN’s “NFL Live.” He first wrote about it last week on SI.com.
Tucker told “NFL Live” that Patriots coach Bill Belichick will do anything he can “to get an advantage.” He also added that using a player on injured reserve in practice was of “minimal” benefit.
Last Friday, in an article published on SI.com, Tucker wrote that: "I had heard the Patriots did this before I signed with them in 2005 and I saw it firsthand during my time there. I asked veteran receiver Troy Brown about it one time and he responded, ‘Every team in the league does that.’ I quickly let him know none of the three teams I played for previously had done so.
“Basically, the Patriots would put a player on IR, knowing it meant he couldn’t play in a game or practice with the team for the remainder of the season. By skirting the rules and practicing him anyway, it allowed them to develop his skills during the year. A side benefit is that they were also able to give some of the older players less repetitions and, therefore, additional rest.”
Tucker played with Washington, Dallas, Buffalo, New England and Cleveland during his career. He currently writes for SI.com and hosts a show on Sirius satellite radio.
And why did this not blow up like Spygate?
Why weren’t they punished for it? Why was nothing further heard on this again?
And to what extent were they involved in practice? Running routes? Tackling? Standing there in place of a cone?
Teams decide what’s practiced anyway. They want to give guys more rest, they can give them more rest.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Niether did Tom Landry,
Shanahan, Johnson, Cowher, Schottenheimer, Dungy (judging by the fact he hired the Chiefs’ best cameraman to be his OL coach), Halas…
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I wasn’t aware any of them were caught & punished for cheating. Nobody mentions that when they talk about their legacy, Spyg*ate will ALWAYS be in the conversation over BBs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/070918
The situation with the National Football League is a lot worse than people realize, and the only one who seems to grasp this fully is commissioner Roger Goodell. You don’t issue emergency orders backed by threats, as Goodell just did regarding the New England Patriots’ files of cheating information, unless the situation is a lot worse than people realize.
Why is the situation worse than people think? Because the NFL is on the precipice of blowing its status as the country’s favorite sport. The whole NFL enterprise is in jeopardy from that single word: cheating. It’s the most distasteful word in sports. And now the Patriots have brought the word into the NFL.
First we learn that the Patriots were cheating by using video equipment to steal signs, in blatant violation of league rules. Then we learn that even after the scandal broke and Bill Belichick issued his Nixonian stonewalling statement, the Patriots were still keeping sign-stealing videotapes and notes from past games. Surrender of the tapes and notes was the subject of Goodell’s emergency order, first reported by ESPN’s Chris Mortensen. Sunday night on NBC’s “Football Night in America,” Goodell threatened more punishment of the Patriots if all cheating materials aren’t surrendered, and repeatedly declared it was imperative that NFL games be fair and equal competition.
The convenient “malfunction” of visiting teams’ headphones at the Patriots’ two fields under Belichick seems to have happened far too often to be an IT department error.
Or it might have something to do with playoff games in Foxboro
Usually being played under heavy snow, or high winds, in freezing conditions…
Or teams trying to find any reason at all why they had their asses kicked by the better team without having to say they lost to a superior outfit.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Way to link to
(a) an idiot, and (b) a dead link.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Its the site doing that with the end of the link, not me, it works, just copy/paste the whole thing.
You live in NE? Funny, from here it looks like you’re living in denial/
The same Gregg Easterbrook who spends 20 000 words a week
talking about how holidays happen earlier and earlier each year? How they’ve offended the football gods?
Is Bill Simmons more or less credible a source of unbiased opinion as Gregggggg over there?
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It doesn’t matter what source I provide, or how many that give the same exact information, you dispute every single one.
At least you are surrounded by a bunch of other people who actually believe BB didn’t cheat & that his & the P*triots legacy is forever tarnished. Don’t travel & don’t bother to look on the web & see that you are the only ones lol. Good day sir
Because you can't find anything out there that says flat out
It is illegal to film, steal signals, record anything. Don’t feel bad, no-one can, because that’s not the rule.
And most of your posts are opinion, so it’s going to be biased one way or the other.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Oct 27, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Give up on this troll
They never accept logic and facts that challenge what they already think about something. They are perfectly content with being ignorant and closed minded. They may ask questions, but they’re only to try to find holes in the facts or logic, and when they can’t find those holes they go looking for anything that can discredit it even playing of opinion as fact. They pick and choose what facts they wanna consider so just forget about it b/c this topic has seriously overtaken the thread.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
by Chris Kole on Oct 27, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can pick your team to win
every time, that’s called Homerism.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
And how dare we
expect Homerism from fans. Tell me, what games this season have you picked against the Pats?
None
But if we faced a team that we have only beat twice in the past what 10 years then maybe I would have picked against them because they always have problems with that particular team. Doesn’t mean I’m always going to pick against them when they play (because you gotta consider recent meetings, how the teams have played all season, competition level, etc.)
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
This is going a bit far.
If the Steelers were a team that consistently lost in general, then maybe you would say that, but they will always have a chance to win in every single game they play.
"There's no place like it, and it's ours." - Stephen King on Fenway Park
by 808BostonSportsFan on Oct 27, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Did I say the Steelers couldn't win?
Did I even say all Steelers fans should expect their team to lose Sunday?
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
You said:
But if we faced a team that we have only beat twice in the past what 10 years then maybe I would have picked against them because they always have problems with that particular team.
as a way of trying to suggest the Steelers should consider picking the Pats, which I think is unreasonable and unrealistic. Granted, I don’t know you, but I really don’t think if the Pats make the post-season, you’ll be picking against them just because they haven’t done well recently.
"There's no place like it, and it's ours." - Stephen King on Fenway Park
by 808BostonSportsFan on Oct 27, 2011 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the hypocrisy of your comment
is astounding
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by FrankWyt on Oct 27, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chris Kole ^
This message will self destruct
What?
So why did BB get fined? Why did the pats lose a draft pick?
Because they DIDN’T do anything illegal?
BB just felt like fining his favorite team in the NFL.
We’re suppose to believe that?
I’m surprised you do.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 28, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
good,
you finally see why it’s a waste time proving your point against isn the troll
he’s a like a politician the way he spins everything for his benefit..it’s a waste of time
bill beeeelichick knows how to reach these keeeeeeeeeeeds it’s as simple as that
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2001-2004 Playoff Games
Steeler fans conveniently forget what actually happened in those playoff games. In 2001, Troy Brown returned a punt for a TD. I think there was also a blocked kick somewhere in there. Special teams won the game for the Pats that day. In 2004, Big Ben just sucked. I think he ended throwing a couple of picks in the first half and never recovered. Even assuming we had all the Steelers defensive signals from the Spygate stuff, that doesn’t explain the playoff losses, so let’s please get off that subject. The bottom line is that the Steelers – as great as that front 7 has been – have a lousy secondary. The best way to beat Brady is tight man coverage with a front four that can get to him often The Jets and the Ravens (and maybe Philly?) have the right kind of corners for that.
by JayzDC on Oct 27, 2011 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
It Was More than Special Teams in '01
The special teams plays, punt returned for a TD and blocked FG for a TD, plus a Steelers TD return negated on a penalty give New England their margin.
But the truth is they kicked up buts in the first half. They had a great game plan and more importantly they executed, dominated the line of scrimmage, etc…
The Steelers rebounded in a big way in the second half, and I’ll argue that had they played in the first half the way they played in the second half they’d have won IN SPITE of the special teams breakdowns.
The 2004 game came down to basically to Ben playing like a rookie. I remember one question INT that got called against him, and when a buddy (a non-Steelers fan) brought it up, I stopped him and said, “You know it doesn’t matter. Had that INT been called back Ben just as likely would have tossed a pick with his next pass.”
by Hombre de Acero on Oct 27, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Evidence
is just too compelling to ignore, even with the other aspects of those games entering the equation. What about the third down conversions by the Patriot offense which extended those drives? What about the ten other points scored in the ’01 Title Game?
And that’s the fundamental problem of Spygate, it opens the door to everything else. And since the Pats were also taping preseason games during that era, it stands to reason they were taping Super Bowls as well, and using that real time information to win those tight games.
But one of the most damming pieces of evidence has to be Tom Brady’s declining postseason performance since the Pats stopped taping postseason games after the 2004 season. The number don’t lie. From 2001-2004 Brady was a perfect 9-0, with only three picks, and was clutch in those big games. But from 2005-present, Brady has gone from Superman back to Clark Kent. A mediocre 5-5, and he’s thrown 13 picks, while looking shaky in crunch time. This was even true in 2007, when Brady was only average in both the AFC Title Game, and Super Bowl 42. It was strange to see how Brady struggled in the biggest game he’s ever played as the Pats were seeking unmatched greatness. Remember, Brady torched that same Giants team for 37 points at their place in December.
And the Pats don’t win another Super Bowl under BB, the drumbeat will grow only louder. Years from now, historians will write about the Spygate connection and the postseason success. That will truly be the voice of reason.
Your Dates Are Wrong
Brady wasn’t perfect post-season prior to Spygate. He got killed in Denver in 05, throwing a red zone INT to Champ Baily. There was no comeback. I guess we must have lost the Broncos’ defensive signals that year. We also lost to the Indianapolis Mannings in 2006 (that was pre-Spygate) because we had a defensive secondary made of swiss cheese. Brady had a chance to win the game with about a 40+ seconds left. He got picked. Again, we must have lost our Spygate materials in the final drive to win the game. Although, you actually didn’t need to have defensive signals to understand that the Colts were playing a prevent defense. Apparently, execution matters in the NFL.
The Spygate story broke in ‘07. The tapes were all taken and all camera work was now done by the book (i.e. filimng could take place on the sidelines but only by the team’s in house cable show). During that offseason we acquired Randy Moss and Wes Welker. We had a perfect regular season and got destroyed by the Giants in the Superbowl, coming within a minute of winning and having a perfet season. How did they beat us? They didn’t play zone like they did in the regular season. They played man and the front four beat the crap out of Brady. In 2008, Brady was out for the year with an ACL tear. In 2009, we lost to the Ravens. Some guy named Ray Rice ran all over us and the Ravens defense played man and hit Brady. We lost In 2010, we destroyed the Jets during the regular season when they played man and then they reversed it, playing zone (with Revis playing man sometimes) during the playoffs but putting more pressure from the front four on Brady.
In other words, Brady was mortal (but good) pre-Spygate and again, mortal post-Spygate. Believe it or not, we acually have a better winning percentage overall post-Spygate then before (don’t have a citation but Peter King wrote about it a few months ago, I think).
So, at the end of the day, did the signals really help? Well, they must have I guess because Belichick wanted it done. However, how much did it really help? The actual facts would seem to indicate, not much. We won 3 SBs by 3 points each. Knowing Belichick, do you really think that if we had defensive signals that could completely change the game, we woldn’t put an extra TD in there somewhere to give us a cushion? Our overall winning percentage is actually better post-Spygate. Brady is, I think, 2-3 post-season post-Spygate and 9-2 post-season pre-Spygate. That could indicate his use of signals had an effect…except his regular season win percentage is about the same or slightly better.
The real reason Brady has struggled in the playoffs, post-Spygate appears to be a blueprint for beating this team: (1) disguise coverage; (2) rush four; (3) man-cover with lots of contact, no 7-yard cushions. That works well if you have the personnel for it.
How About This:
What about the ten other points scored in the ’01 Title Game?
If the Patriots knew the signals, you bet your ass the score would have been way more lopsided than it ended up being.
Like last year. And that was with no video tapes.
Can I Scream?
by Adam Fox on Oct 28, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That says a lot about this community as well
I haven’t even read all of the comments, but why aren’t the responses rec’d as well? Are members here going to the pats site and rec’ing steelers fans comments?
because we don't need
to resort to douchebaggery?
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Because
we have better things to do
"If you're not getting better, I don't care what business you're in, you're a dead man. I try to look critically at the mistakes that I make and try to learn from them, like our team does." - Mike Tomlin
by Rebecca Rollett on Oct 27, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I question your fan loyalty.
I mean, aren’t you going to defend Steeler Pride? It’s dem against us, either wit us or against us. You aren’t really a fan, are you….
/more sarcasm/
Because his comments make sense?
Bring back Aaron Brooks! He's the only one who can save us from the evil that is Drew Brees!!
by Jon Banks on Oct 27, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Its one thing
to agree with a comment.
Its another to rec’d it.
As far as my understanding only the most superbly comment should be rec’d. As in I recommend this comment as it is better than all the other ones.
None of those comments are ‘better’ than his other comments. They aren’t better in general from any of the other comments. Therefore should not be rec’d.
A rec’d comment is one that is either very witty, breaks down a situation very well and explains a situation on a deeper level, a really good story, or an exceptionally well written comment.
But that is the key, it has to be exceptional, not just your everyday comment.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Oct 28, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You're ALL right !
Bottom line:
1) Bellichek is the hardest working coach in all of football
and the guy who is # 2 on the list is a far and distant 2nd
2) Bellichek will bend /break rules wherever possible for an advantage … as long as it works, why not ? (I’m not condoning it; just stating facts)
3) Bob Kraft is a great owner and gives his coach & players full support – much like the Rooneys
But my final thought: these two teams aren’t as far apart over the last decade as some make out; yes; head to head the Pats have the advantage lately, but I’ll still accept that fact along with the 2 Superbowl wins by the Steelers any day of the week.
This Sunday: Steelers 34 ; Pats 27
"Pitch me outside, I will hit .400. Pitch me inside, and you will not find the ball." - Roberto Clemente
Jesus.
You Cheatriot fans travel in fucking groups, huh? Just recommending each others’ comments for no reason.
they go to the bathroom together as well
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it's either cute, or pathetic...
i’m betting on the latter
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Patriots fans aren't allowed to "tuck" anything.
It’s a common misconception.
by Richard Hill on Oct 27, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just start with the photo.
The image of Belichick you used for this post says it all. This man clearly has no soul. His steel-gray eyes are like windows into a dark abyss. Perhaps it took him a while to develop his system, but now it’s like the Death Star and Belichick is Vader.
As much as I detest Brady, I have to admit that he’s one of the few NFL quarterbacks who always seems to know precisely what he wants to do on the gridiron. No hesitation, no jitters, no happy feet. Just methodical precision like some kind of diabolical machine. The Pats have an offensive scheme that continues to work year after year, regardless of who the players might be. And TB is the cool trigger man, always a couple of moves ahead of any defensive scheme.
And when the Pats get you down in the score, they’re not satisfied merely with winning. They want to rub your nose in it so that the stink lingers for weeks or months. They want the stench to infiltrate your home stadium and percolate through every Terrible Towel. If necessary, they’ll break the rules to get an edge. Heck, they’ll let the damned air out of your tires in the parking lot.
The only response to such a vicious and determined foe is to grant them absolutely no quarter. Quite simply, you must knock the living crap out of them for 60 minutes. Anything less only encourages the Evil Empire to rally its troops again.
GO STEELERS!
by Billy52 on Oct 27, 2011 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
have your really read other pieces?
or is that your stereotypical pats fan’s passive aggressive swipe at people that don’t worship your team?
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No.
It was thought provoking, complimentary—and didn’t mention “Spygate” once. Kudos to one person on here not looking entirely through black-and-gold-tinted lenses when it comes to evaluation of other opponents.
That’s all I was saying.
Can I Scream?
I stand by my original post
and the 2005-present New England/Brady postseason struggles have a strange coincidence with the last illegal postseason taping for the 2004 postseason. Facts are facts, regardless of who you root for. I could have mentioned former NE assistant coaches alluding to the help of the taping over the years or live audio of another NFL coach mentioning the uncanny play calling after a regular season win.
There’s only one way the Pats can stop the controversy, and that’s with a Super Bowl win, plain and simple. Until then, New England can celebrate these regular season wins, while the Steelers franchise will continue to celebrate postseason success.
No intelligent Patriots fan can honestly say after beating the Eagles back in February of ‘05, that they thought your franchise would have only one losing super bowl appearance(in the biggest choke job in sports history) since then. Also, that a 27 year old QB would suddenly start making mistakes in these big games in the following years. Sorry, I just don’t buy the coincidence.
by SteelStealth on Oct 28, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
30 seconds away from winning in 2007
And that was AFTER Brady led the team down the field for a go-ahead drive.
The defense then proceeded to crap the bed, the highlights being a missed sack on the play of the miraculous David Tyree catch, and a dropped INT by Asante Samuel, all on the same drive.
Do you watch football outside of your own team’s games? It doesn’t sound like it. This is a tough, competitive league. The players on every team are the cream of the crop. It’s an honor that you would think so highly of the Patriots that they should (and would) win the Super Bowl every single year of Tom Brady’s career, but it just doesn’t happen like that.
I think it’s sour grapes that Steelers fans in particular can’t look past Spygate. Your team sucked back then. Get over it. If you still find yourself having more Super Bowl wins than every other franchise in the league, then the Patriots really aren’t the road block to success that you make them out to be, huh?
So … who gives a shit?
Can I Scream?
That's all well and good
but don’t blame your defense in a game where the offense only scored 14 points. As a fan of a winning franchise, you should know that 14 points are hardly ever enough to win a football game against a good team. That’s clearly on the offense.
lol
you have got to be kidding…The Pats defense that “crapped the bed” gave up 17
now, going by their average ppg, including playoffs, they should have won that game by at least 10 points..
they blew their load early, and choked when it mattered, there is no way around that. No matter how you twist it for the purpose of sleeping better.
it was, by far, the biggest choke in sports history..period
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ok, cool
but if you look through the site, that’s usually all that’s on here is intelligently written pieces.
Mz Rollett, Mr Bean, Mr Stephens and so on, are very smart, and their posts always bring up interesting points, and bring attention to things a lot of people might miss.
Spygate is only mentioned in the comments section, and even that, only in weeks like this (before the Pats game)
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Spygate? Really?
What’s absolutely laughable is that Bill Cower admitted to doing the exact same thing as Belechick (along with Jimmy Johnson) and claimed that it was common practice among teams and you were in the minority if you didn’t do it.
BTW, Belechick was fined for WHERE he taped from, not the taping itself. let it go.
malaki owned isn but you wouldn’t be able to tell by how green he turned by getting pats fans thumbs shoved up his ass
Forget Spygate and talk about Belichick in total and vs Steelers
1) His days in Cleveland included lots of mediocre players and his first gig as a HC. This combined with Modell and the Bernie legacy was probably hard to deal with for anyone.
2) Belichick is a football guy with a bad personality and little else of interst in his life. He is divorced with three kids from his ex-wife. Like a lot of high powered people, he is more interested in his career than anything else. He is totally dedicated to coaching and is a good coach, no doubt about it.
3) Spygate was a symptom of doing whatever possible to gain an advantage and win. Many others did similar things and you can bet still do what they can. Why do you think all of these coordinators cover their mouths when they talk? Watch the World Series – pitchers and catchers do it also, in addition to middle infielders.
4) Cowher did not prepare nor adjust well in many of their previous games vs the Pats. I have talked about this before but most Steeler fans don’t want to hear it. Cowher was a very average in-game coach and his teams often gave up huge plays on special teams. That is due to a lack of emphasis pure and simple.
5) When talent is equal, the coaching is most evident. Good teams plus good coaching equals wins. When the Pats had great talent they won lots of games and SBs. That starts with your QB, DBs and then OL in the NFL.
You can say a lot of other things but the ‘cheating’ is not the secret to Belichick’s success. Hard work, smarts, dedication, good teams and good ownership have all contributed.
I have intercepted signals both in-game (by viewing with my eyes) and from watching film while scouting. If you are not changing your signals, using wristbands and self-scouting then you are a fool. Look at the signal boards commonly used in college football – are those being used because no one is watching?
In large part, the Steelers are using the same defense as they did in the 1990s. Le Beau emphasizes different things but the basics are the same. Hope that changes if we play the Pats in the playoffs. I’m sure certain new twists will be added.
"Franz" in NoCal
Another Intelligent Post
It took somewhere in the neighborhood of 300+ posts, but by God, you guys are proving me wrong.
Thank you.
Can I Scream?
ooooh
can we get some more of that stereotypical Boston condescending passive aggression? Come on, I KNOW you have some more, don’t be greedy.
Why is it that you people are so smug and arrogant? what have you done? really?
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You are welcome
I think I know a little something about coaching and the game of football but that and a buck will maybe get you a cup of coffee. I find myself rooting for coaches nowadays, especially in college since they shape the team and the style of play. That said, I don’t love Belichick but I do respect his abilities. I like ornery and feisty but he seems to be burning out a little, resulting in a dour and unhappy guy to play for. If you coach long enough without a break things can get stale and claustrophobic.
The Steelers played very well in total yesterday. Your defense is going to be the limit of your success as a team. The Steelers have weapons and are using them effectively most weeks. Pittsburgh’s O Line is their greatest liability and if they play average the team can win most games.
"Franz" in NoCal
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