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Ben Roethlisberger vs. the Field: How Big Ben's First Seven NFL Seaons Stack Up Against Other Great NFL Quarterbacks

As some of you may remember, I've enjoyed contributing a statistical post to BTSC every now and then. There are a couple of my posts still linked at the left side of the main page, comparing the numbers of the some of the top RBs, WRs, and QBs in NFL history. I also posted an article comparing Big Ben to Eli Manning several years ago while I was between jobs and free to do more research and writing than usual.

After a long hiatus since then, I thought it might be a good time to look back at Roethlisberger's statistics through seven NFL seasons, and then compare his numbers with other QBs, both retired and active, who have started a sizable number of games like Roethlisberger has since 2004.

I pulled my data from Pro-Football-Reference.com. Using their Player Season Finder, I ran a query on all QBs that had 16,000 or more passing yards in their first seven NFL seasons. That would, of course, include some of the all time greats, but it also includes some of the "Hall of Very Good," as well as some "just ok" QBs. But, my goal here was not another comparison of all time greats. I just wanted to see how Ben stacked up against a fairly large sample size. I set the bar at 16,000 passing yards in order to include Tony Romo, because he is one of the QBs in my mind that has been one of Ben's contemporaries, a la Eli and Philip Rivers. I also thought about Aaron Rodgers, but he's only started three seasons, so I would have had to drop the bar to 12,000 career passing yards. I just thought that would open it up too much. 

While this analysis is not exactly the same as the ones that I mentioned above, I followed the same general process. I looked at variety of statistics that were provided by the PFR query, then ranked the players in each category and took the average of each player's rankings. I used the average rankings to determine an overall aggregate ranking for all of the players. For more information the process, I recommend taking a look at one of the posts that I mentioned above (they are under the Statistical Comparisons section).

With that brief intro, let's take a look at the numbers. First, we have the raw statistics from PFR, broken down into two separate tables. Each row of data is sortable.

Star-divide

 

Player From To Tm G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate
Dan Marino* 1983 1989 MIA 103 101 2174 3650 59.60% 27853 220 125 89.3
Peyton Manning 1998 2004 CLT 112 112 2464 3880 63.50% 29442 216 120 92.3
Kurt Warner 1998 2004 TOT 63 59 1295 1965 65.90% 16501 108 69 95.7
Daunte Culpepper 1999 2005 MIN 81 80 1678 2607 64.40% 20162 135 86 91.5
Trent Green 1997 2004 TOT 88 83 1705 2822 60.40% 21607 133 82 87.9
Marc Bulger 2002 2008 RAM 87 87 1829 2924 62.60% 21345 117 87 85.6
Drew Bledsoe 1993 1999 NWE 106 105 2192 3921 55.90% 25966 147 123 75.7
Philip Rivers 2004 2010 SDG 84 80 1564 2455 63.70% 19661 136 58 97.2
Carson Palmer 2004 2010 CIN 97 97 2024 3217 62.90% 22694 154 100 86.9
Brett Favre 1991 1997 TOT 97 93 1971 3205 61.50% 22591 182 95 89.3
Drew Brees 2001 2007 TOT 91 90 1921 3015 63.70% 21189 134 82 87.9
Warren Moon* 1984 1990 OTI 99 99 1701 3025 56.20% 22989 134 112 79.9
Jim Everett 1986 1992 RAM 97 96 1712 3003 57.00% 22106 134 111 79.7
Ben Roethlisberger 2004 2010 PIT 99 98 1766 2800 63.10% 22502 144 86 92.5
Jim Kelly* 1986 1992 BUF 102 102 1824 3024 60.30% 23031 161 108 86.9
Tom Brady 2000 2006 NWE 96 94 1896 3064 61.90% 21564 147 78 88.4
Joe Namath* 1965 1971 NYJ 78 73 1144 2281 50.20% 17283 107 122 68.8
Aaron Brooks 2000 2006 TOT 93 90 1673 2963 56.50% 20261 123 92 78.5
Mark Brunell 1994 2000 TOT 89 84 1608 2672 60.20% 19212 106 66 85.1
Eli Manning 2004 2010 NYG 105 103 1932 3332 58.00% 22646 156 113 80.2
Bernie Kosar 1985 1991 CLE 94 92 1671 2857 58.50% 19937 103 71 81.6
John Elway* 1983 1989 DEN 100 98 1665 3070 54.20% 21195 120 114 73.6
Boomer Esiason 1984 1990 CIN 101 93 1520 2687 56.60% 21381 150 98 85.8
Jeff Garcia 1999 2005 TOT 91 86 1695 2785 60.90% 19076 126 71 85.8
Johnny Unitas* 1956 1962 CLT 86 81 1252 2316 54.10% 18010 148 119 79.4
Ken O'Brien 1984 1990 NYJ 98 87 1697 2878 59.00% 20444 109 78 82.2
Jake Plummer 1997 2003 TOT 95 93 1729 3056 56.60% 19804 105 121 71.2
Jeff George 1990 1996 TOT 87 84 1588 2712 58.60% 18126 91 78 77.9
Phil Simms 1979 1986 NYG 85 82 1326 2492 53.20% 17585 104 103 72.5
Donovan McNabb 1999 2005 PHI 94 88 1718 2943 58.40% 19433 134 66 84.1
Jon Kitna 1997 2003 TOT 85 76 1589 2704 58.80% 17537 103 98 75.7
Neil Lomax 1981 1987 CRD 94 87 1562 2710 57.60% 19376 116 79 82
Kerry Collins 1995 2001 TOT 94 88 1616 2959 54.60% 19200 100 104 71.3
Jim Zorn 1976 1982 SEA 94 92 1483 2768 53.60% 18876 100 124 68.5
Mark Rypien 1988 1994 TOT 83 75 1303 2335 55.80% 16622 105 78 79.3
Troy Aikman* 1989 1995 DAL 98 98 1704 2713 62.80% 19607 98 85 83.5
Norm Snead 1961 1967 TOT 89 85 1162 2323 50.00% 17232 112 131 67.3
Neil O'Donnell 1991 1997 TOT 87 81 1438 2519 57.10% 16810 89 53 80.5
Vinny Testaverde 1987 1993 TOT 86 78 1256 2390 52.60% 16617 91 121 66.4
Otto Graham* 1946 1952 CLE 90 79 1057 1943 54.40% 17049 137 101 85.8
Tony Romo 2004 2010 DAL 89 61 1326 2070 64.10% 16650 118 62 95.5
Joe Montana* 1979 1985 SFO 103 79 1627 2571 63.30% 19262 133 67 92.4
Jay Schroeder 1985 1991 TOT 87 79 1092 2158 50.60% 16245 94 88 73.1
Steve McNair 1995 2001 OTI 87 79 1333 2288 58.30% 16035 86 61 81.3
Fran Tarkenton* 1961 1967 TOT 98 91 1228 2276 54.00% 17667 142 114 79.3
Steve Grogan 1975 1981 NWE 93 86 1123 2188 51.30% 16485 114 140 67
John Hadl 1962 1968 SDG 98 74 1081 2188 49.40% 16773 133 134 69.9

Table 1

 

        Passing Passing Passing Passing Passing Passing Passing Passing
Player From To Tm Sk Y/A SkYds AY/A ANY/A Y/G TD/G Int/G
Dan Marino* 1983 1989 MIA 83 7.63 670 7.3 6.95 270.4 2.1359 1.2136
Peyton Manning 1998 2004 CLT 139 7.59 941 7.31 6.82 262.9 1.9286 1.0714
Kurt Warner 1998 2004 TOT 153 8.4 913 7.92 6.91 261.9 1.7143 1.0952
Daunte Culpepper 1999 2005 MIN 228 7.73 1214 7.29 6.27 248.9 1.6667 1.0617
Trent Green 1997 2004 TOT 190 7.66 1179 7.29 6.44 245.5 1.5114 0.9318
Marc Bulger 2002 2008 RAM 240 7.3 1778 6.76 5.69 245.3 1.3448 1
Drew Bledsoe 1993 1999 NWE 212 6.62 1493 5.96 5.29 245 1.3868 1.1604
Philip Rivers 2004 2010 SDG 140 8.01 868 8.05 7.28 234.1 1.619 0.6905
Carson Palmer 2004 2010 CIN 160 7.05 1116 6.61 5.97 234 1.5876 1.0309
Brett Favre 1991 1997 TOT 194 7.05 1240 6.85 6.09 232.9 1.8763 0.9794
Drew Brees 2001 2007 TOT 126 7.03 938 6.69 6.13 232.8 1.4725 0.9011
Warren Moon* 1984 1990 OTI 242 7.6 1906 6.82 5.73 232.2 1.3535 1.1313
Jim Everett 1986 1992 RAM 168 7.36 1202 6.59 5.86 227.9 1.3814 1.1443
Ben Roethlisberger 2004 2010 PIT 274 8.04 1821 7.68 6.41 227.3 1.4545 0.8687
Jim Kelly* 1986 1992 BUF 201 7.62 1544 7.07 6.15 225.8 1.5784 1.0588
Tom Brady 2000 2006 NWE 182 7.04 1150 6.85 6.11 224.6 1.5313 0.8125
Joe Namath* 1965 1971 NYJ 19 7.58 180 6.11 5.43 221.6 1.3718 1.5641
Aaron Brooks 2000 2006 TOT 235 6.84 1454 6.27 5.36 217.9 1.3226 0.9892
Mark Brunell 1994 2000 TOT 235 7.19 1335 6.87 5.86 215.9 1.191 0.7416
Eli Manning 2004 2010 NYG 166 6.8 1177 6.21 5.58 215.7 1.4857 1.0762
Bernie Kosar 1985 1991 CLE 217 6.98 1340 6.58 5.68 212.1 1.0957 0.7553
John Elway* 1983 1989 DEN 207 6.9 1589 6.01 5.15 212 1.2 1.14
Boomer Esiason 1984 1990 CIN 186 7.96 1475 7.43 6.44 211.7 1.4851 0.9703
Jeff Garcia 1999 2005 TOT 133 6.85 703 6.61 6.07 209.6 1.3846 0.7802
Johnny Unitas* 1956 1962 CLT   7.78   6.74   209.4 1.7209 1.3837
Ken O'Brien 1984 1990 NYJ 295 7.1 2204 6.64 5.33 208.6 1.1122 0.7959
Jake Plummer 1997 2003 TOT 229 6.48 1399 5.39 4.58 208.5 1.1053 1.2737
Jeff George 1990 1996 TOT 232 6.68 1739 6.06 4.99 208.3 1.046 0.8966
Phil Simms 1979 1986 NYG 268 7.06 2077 6.03 4.69 206.9 1.2235 1.2118
Donovan McNabb 1999 2005 PHI 234 6.6 1462 6.5 5.57 206.7 1.4255 0.7021
Jon Kitna 1997 2003 TOT 165 6.49 1039 5.62 4.93 206.3 1.2118 1.1529
Neil Lomax 1981 1987 CRD 316 7.15 2385 6.69 5.21 206.1 1.234 0.8404
Kerry Collins 1995 2001 TOT 180 6.49 1216 5.58 4.88 204.3 1.0638 1.1064
Jim Zorn 1976 1982 SEA 191 6.82 1418 5.53 4.69 200.8 1.0638 1.3191
Mark Rypien 1988 1994 TOT 84 7.12 589 6.51 6.05 200.3 1.2651 0.9398
Troy Aikman* 1989 1995 DAL 167 7.23 1080 6.54 5.79 200.1 1 0.8673
Norm Snead 1961 1967 TOT   7.42   5.84   193.6 1.2584 1.4719
Neil O'Donnell 1991 1997 TOT 211 6.67 1545 6.43 5.37 193.2 1.023 0.6092
Vinny Testaverde 1987 1993 TOT 214 6.95 1650 5.44 4.36 193.2 1.0581 1.407
Otto Graham* 1946 1952 CLE   8.77   7.85   189.4 1.5222 1.1222
Tony Romo 2004 2010 DAL 106 8.04 660 7.84 7.15 187.1 1.3258 0.6966
Joe Montana* 1979 1985 SFO 151 7.49 1067 7.35 6.55 187 1.2913 0.6505
Jay Schroeder 1985 1991 TOT 159 7.53 1248 6.56 5.57 186.7 1.0805 1.0115
Steve McNair 1995 2001 OTI 156 7.01 940 6.56 5.76 184.3 0.9885 0.7011
Fran Tarkenton* 1961 1967 TOT   7.76   6.76   180.3 1.449 1.1633
Steve Grogan 1975 1981 NWE 156 7.53 1317 5.7 4.76 177.3 1.2258 1.5054
John Hadl 1962 1968 SDG   7.67   6.13   171.2 1.3571 1.3673

Table 2

Before going forward, just a couple of notes about the statistics above. First, the only statistics in Tables 1 and 2 that are not straight from PFR are the final 2 columns in Table 2. I calculated the TD/G and Int/G by simply dividing each player's total TDs and Ints by the number of games played in their first seven years in the league. Second, some of the players have sack statistics listed (or very small numbers) since the NFL has not always tracked quarterback sacks (Wikipedia says that the NFL began tracking how many times QBs were sacked in 1963, while they began tracking defensive player sacks in 1982).

As I touched on above, I followed a similar process to what I used in the RBs, WRs, and QBs articles that are posted on the left side of the front page. Basically, I ranked the players by completion percentage, passer rating, and the per attempt and per game statistics given in the tables above by sorting the players on those statistics. I then averaged each players rankings and gave them an overall ranking by sorting according to their mean average ranking. The results were placed into the table below. 

 

Player Cmp% Rate Y/A AY/A Y/G TD/G Int/G ANY/A Mean Avg
Philip Rivers 4 1 5 1 8 7 3 1 3.750
Kurt Warner 1 2 2 2 3 5 29 4 6.000
Peyton Manning 6 6 15 8 2 2 27 5 8.875
Ben Roethlisberger 8 4 4 5 14 16 14 9 9.250
Daunte Culpepper 2 7 9 10 4 6 26 10 9.250
Tony Romo 3 3 3 4 41 26 4 2 10.750
Trent Green 15 12 11 11 5 12 17 7 11.250
Dan Marino* 18 9 12 9 1 1 39 3 11.500
Brett Favre 13 8 30 14 10 3 20 14 14.000
Jim Kelly* 16 14 13 12 15 9 25 11 14.375
Joe Montana* 7 5 19 7 42 28 2 6 14.500
Tom Brady 12 10 31 15 16 10 11 13 14.750
Boomer Esiason 29 16 6 6 23 14 19 8 15.125
Drew Brees 5 11 32 21 11 15 16 12 15.375
Carson Palmer 9 13 29 23 9 8 24 17 16.500
Marc Bulger 11 18 22 18 6 25 22 23 18.125
Mark Brunell 17 19 24 13 19 36 7 18 19.125
Jeff Garcia 14 15 37 24 24 20 9 15 19.750
Otto Graham* 36 17 1 3 40 11 31   19.857
Warren Moon* 32 28 14 16 12 24 32 22 22.500
Johnny Unitas* 38 30 7 19 25 4 43   23.714
Jim Everett 28 29 21 25 13 21 34 19 23.750
Ken O'Brien 19 22 27 22 26 37 10 31 24.250
Troy Aikman* 10 21 23 29 36 46 13 20 24.750
Bernie Kosar 22 24 34 26 21 39 8 24 24.750
Donovan McNabb 23 20 44 31 30 18 6 26 24.750
Neil Lomax 26 23 25 20 32 31 12 33 25.250
Eli Manning 25 27 40 34 20 13 28 25 26.500
Mark Rypien 34 31 26 30 35 29 18 16 27.375
Fran Tarkenton* 39 32 8 17 45 17 37   27.857
Steve McNair 24 25 33 28 44 47 5 21 28.375
Aaron Brooks 31 33 38 33 18 27 21 30 28.875
Neil O'Donnell 27 26 42 32 38 45 1 29 30.000
Drew Bledsoe 33 36 43 40 7 19 36 32 30.750
Joe Namath* 45 43 16 36 17 22 47 28 31.750
Jeff George 21 34 41 37 28 44 15 35 31.875
Jay Schroeder 44 38 18 27 43 40 23 27 32.500
John Elway* 37 37 36 39 22 35 33 34 34.125
Jon Kitna 20 35 45 43 31 34 35 36 34.875
John Hadl 47 42 10 35 47 23 42   35.143
Phil Simms 41 39 28 38 29 33 38 39 35.625
Norm Snead 46 45 20 41 37 30 45   37.714
Kerry Collins 35 40 46 44 33 41 30 37 38.250
Steve Grogan 43 46 17 42 46 32 46 38 38.750
Jake Plummer 30 41 47 47 27 38 40 41 38.875
Jim Zorn 40 44 39 45 34 42 41 40 40.625
Vinny Testaverde 42 47 35 46 39 43 44 42 42.250

Table 3

While this analysis is not as exhaustive as the previous ones, I think it still gives a good idea of how the different players compare with each other. My goal here was more a quick assessment on how Ben compares with other QBs through 7 seasons. And frankly, I think that my results were probably pretty similar to what they would have been had I followed the same process that I did in the previous posts, but they only required about 1/10th of the time and effort. Anyway, let's take a look at the results.

Not surprisingly, Ben stacks up pretty well in every category. He's tied for fourth overall with Dante Culpepper, with an average ranking of 9.25 across the various categories. Of the eight categories, he ranks in the top 5 in 3 of them, top 10 in 5, top 15 in 7 and top 16 in all 8. It's not surprising that most of the top QBs in this analysis are players who played since 2000, but it's interesting to note the players in this analysis that Ben is ahead of: Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, and significantly higher than Eli Manning. He also compares favorably with Peyton Manning and Kurt Warner, although slightly behind them.

Some have said that Ben is just a "game manager," benefiting from the Steelers' defense and run heavy offense, but he is 14th in yards per game in NFL history through his first seven years. The "game manager" tag may have fit his first 3 years (although few game managers excel as Ben did in his first couple years), but as we all know, the Steelers have not been a top tier rushing since 2007. In fact, given the more limited nature of Ben's offensive game early in his career, his yards/game ranking is actually higher than we would expect. He has obviously made up for it in years 4-7. While increasing his yards/game in recent years, Roethlisberger has still maintained his high completion percentage and passer rating.

On the negative side, we all know about Ben's sack numbers. In fact, I only count 2 QBs with more sacks in their first  7 seasons.However, in ANY/A (adjusted net yards/attempt), which is the one stat in this analysis to incorporate sacks into it, Ben still looks pretty good. Even though I believe Ben has been the most sacked QB in the last 5 years, it has not had an overall huge impact on his productivity. He is still the 9th ranked QB for ANY/A in this analysis.

Taken together, I think these results tell us what we already knew in Steeler Nation. Ben Roethlisberger is one of the elite QBs in this league. After seven seasons, he has one of the best career starts in NFL history. To be fair, some of these QBs' per game numbers are adversely affected since they were not starters in their first season or two. Tony Romo, for example, ranks low in yards/game and TDs/game. But, I actually think that's fine because this analysis sort of builds in some additional credit for being ready to start as a rookie. Players like Big Ben who were up to the task of playing at a high level as rookies should get credit for that. Besides, the players who did not start as rookies were also assisted in Ints/game (Romo ranked 4th in that category), so it is offset somewhat.

I know that Ben's sack totals are a concern, and could conceivably shorten his career, but I think there are a couple of things that we can take some hope in. One, Ben is only 29 years old. While not the average, there are certainly players who have played into their late 30s. The second item to give us hope is related to the first. That is the fact that the most sacked QB in NFL history, John Elway, was one of those players who played into his late 30's. So, I fully expect to see number 7 in a Steelers uniform for at least another 5 years, if not longer. And, based on his performance so far in his career, I expect him finish his career as a sure Hall of Famer.

On a side note, as an NC State alum, I would be remiss if I didn't point out Philip Rivers at the top of this analysis. I know, many of you don't like him, but he is clearly a great QB. He has not had the playoff success that Ben has, but I partly chalk that up to having Norv Turner at Head Coach.

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Some have said that Ben is just a “game manager”

And each time they do it drives me insane. Stereotypes die hard. Like most stereotypes, this particular truism manages to breathe despite a mountain of countervailing evidence. Perhaps it’s because this one was born during Ben’s rookie year, and as such represents a first impression — often the misconceptions most resistant to change.

Anyway, very nice work. It’s nice to see the things I think systematized. It helps me reassure myself that I’m not crazy.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

by SubLime on Aug 29, 2011 8:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh Brother...

Yep, and these are probably the same people that claim Peyton Manning hasn’t won more in the playoffs because of his ‘lackluster’ surrounding cast. How about this: one guy steps up when it matters most, the other guy plays his best in October versus Houston.

by pistil_stamen on Aug 30, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

How is AY/A calculated vs Y/A? I’m stunned that Romo is ahead of Ben in yards/attempt.

by worldtrip on Aug 29, 2011 8:47 PM EDT reply actions  

AY/A gives 20 yards for a TD and -45 for an INT. ANY/A adds in sack yardage and sacks to the # of attempts.

It is a small margin (~.007) but Romo does beat Ben in Y/A.

by Phantaskippy on Aug 29, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

most important stat would be Wins

Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all

by Rickfansince76 on Aug 29, 2011 8:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep

Many will point out that wins should often be credited to the defense or the running game. However, credit must also go the QB whose talents can match the style of the team.

"They eat fish and are majestic" - Great Sergios Ghost

by Varmint on Aug 29, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is a reason why when discussing how good or bad a QB is, their record always comes up as one of the first points made. When have we ever seen a RB or LB discussed based on their record?

The QB’s only objective is to dictate the flow of the game, and it is the most important factor in winning and losing. Ben does just that, as does Flacco (most of the time).

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

And/or

playoff winning percentage…

by pistil_stamen on Aug 30, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do the wins count for a QB if the stats aren’t that great?

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

Dilfer

People don't ever seem to realize that doing what's right is no guarantee against misfortune.
- William McFee

by stillergorillar on Aug 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saw Darren Woodson’s top 10 QB’s in the NFL and he had Matt Ryan at 6 and Ben at 8. I wanted to vomit.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 29, 2011 10:52 PM EDT reply actions  

what?

i’m going to have to…………………..go ahead and sorta……………..disagree? with darren woodson
what the hell has matt ryan done in this league? besides disappear when it mattered? wow..i am flabbergasted by this claim, but at the same time, it makes me feel good that i don’t waste any more time watching espn

by FrankWyt on Aug 30, 2011 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Romo and Freeman were in the list as well if you care.

Flacco was like 16 when they asked him where he ranks.

I would go like this.

1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. Ben
4. Brees
5. Rivers
6. Manning (he is on the fast decline)
7. Flacco
8. Eli
9. Ryan
10. Freeman

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eli

I don’t see him as a top ten QB after watching him yesterday. I didn’t see the entire first 1/2 but Eli and Sanchez seemed to be having a competition to see who was worse. Eli would do some decent stuff then do something really stupid whereas Sanchez didn’t seem to know where his receivers were going to be going.

"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)

"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Aug 30, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I put Eli there because of what he was able to accomplish in 2007. He has definitely struggled since then, but his performance in all 3 playoff games and the Superbowl that year was historic. He will always be in my top 10 because of that.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eli

PFR blog had a look at Eli’s career a year or two ago and it basically looked like he had about an 8-10 game stretch at the end of 2007 (through the playoffs) where he was playing at an elite level, but his numbers before and since have been pretty mediocre. Maybe I can dig it up when I get home tonight. It’s harder to do on a Blackberry.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 30, 2011 3:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I believe it. Eli has always been a 4,000 yard, 30 or so TD’s and 20 or so INT guy. While not the greatest, certainly not the worst.

And in my opinion, big time players step up in big time moments and he did just that in 2007. If he had continued performances like that, he would be in the top 5 most likely. But turning to ball over 30+ times in one season is definitely dropping you.

I would still take Eli over Cutler, Cassel, Schaub, Romo and a few others.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

your list is pretty accurate

but i would definitely have romo in there. if i were to start a team and i had to choose between eli romo freeman and ryan….it would hands down be romo

"i dont subscribe to hocus pocus"

by SITonIT6 on Aug 30, 2011 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

At this point

I’d take Freeman. Romo’s already choked too many times, and as far as I can tell, Eli basically caught lightning in a bottle for one half season.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 30, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree on eli

romo is a good QB. though it was embarassing he choked once. i think he is on a team full of me guys with a sub par defense. if he can stay healthy he will have a great season. i am not a cowboys fan by any stretch of the imagination but i could see him having anywhere between 30 and 35 tds this year

"i dont subscribe to hocus pocus"

by SITonIT6 on Aug 31, 2011 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 31, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meant to put Vick in there for Freeman.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

how is manning on fast decline?

his stats last year were in line with what he always does, and he got that awful team to the playoffs on his own again? for the most part i agree, but peyton is still number 1 in my opinion until he is proven not to be, instead of speculated not to be.
good move leaving the vastly over rated romo off the list, and the 27th best starting qb in the nfl (sanchez) off.

by FrankWyt on Aug 31, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

So Wait...

According to someone who gets paid to analyze the NFL for a living, there are currently 7 quarterbacks better than Ben Roethlisberger? Based on what metric(s)? Last time I checked, wins, and specifically, wins in the playoffs are what matter most…no?

10-3, 3 super bowls, 2 rings. And there are 7 guys better than that? Haha…good one Darren Woodson.

by pistil_stamen on Aug 30, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Playoff wins obviously don’t matter in this league. It is all a matter of how pretty your face is. Why do you think Ben and Joe get dogged on so much? They are arguablt the two worst advertising faces in the league.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 30, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not complaining about Flacco's looks

"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)

"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Aug 30, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brady vs. Ben and other thoughts.

If you add in rushing TD’s (14BR-3TB) Ben pretty much beats Brady across the board. Tom wins the fewer INT award, but loses just about everything else.

A valuable tool for anyone that goes to PFR and runs this query, the advanced “index” numbers are a comparison of the QB’s stats compared to the players of their day. When you sort by those, Otto Graham and Joe Montana shoot up to the top of the list, showing how much better they were than the QB’s of their time.

I was surprised to see Otto only rank 4th in rushing TD’s among these QB’s, one of my favorite stats on Otto Graham is that he is 15th all time in rushing TD’s scored from 1 yard or closer, 3 more than Jim Brown.

Also in sack%index, or how often the player was sacked per pass attempt vs. their peers, Ben is the lowest at 81. (100 is league average, 120 is super good, 80 is super bad.)

by Phantaskippy on Aug 29, 2011 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

cheers for those stats

by tkired on Aug 30, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Impressive compilation of stats

Maybe Ben isn’t quite at the top of the heap yet, but none of those other guys can/could throw defensive ends and LBs off of their backs before completing passes. Ben is truly in a class by himself.

by Billy52 on Aug 30, 2011 12:16 AM EDT reply actions  

new to the site

but where have you been all my life? all on yahoo, all i hear is how steelers fans are stupid rednecks blah blah blah…two days on this site…i’d say we have some of the most intelligent fans in the league, almost all of the comments are well spoken, the writers write thought provoking articles with solid points all around..
just want to say thank you, to the author of this, and pretty much every other story i’ve read
and the people who comment.. you are all awesome

by FrankWyt on Aug 30, 2011 12:50 AM EDT reply actions  

thanks for finding us!

Stick around, we keep things humming year round. Thanks for the kind words.

Freel free to email me anytime at behindthesteelcurtain@gmail.com with questions, suggestions, complaints, etc, or to just say what's up. -Michael Bean (Blitz)

by Michael Bean on Aug 30, 2011 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I'd say stick around...

Great articles all year round…real fun around draft time to hear people’s perspective on some of the lesser known guys that may be on Steelers radar.

by Steel34D on Aug 30, 2011 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome to BTSC

Things can always be worse....

by ncmt40 on Aug 30, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow.

thank you all, and don’t worry, i will be sticking around.

by FrankWyt on Sep 2, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is a damn good post

Great work.

Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...

by StoneColdSteel on Aug 30, 2011 1:27 AM EDT reply actions  

One of your posts was the one of the first I read on BTSC...

And it is articles like these why I keep coming back. I wish I had the time to put together an statistical article, the closest I cam to that was a post on the Yahoo story about "Every one being Elite comparing the sacks per game of Ben, Peyton Tom Dree and Aaron to attempt to prove Ben’s O-line troubles was one reason he hasn’t put up the number a Tom Brady has. I even took away 20% or 1 out of every five sacks of Ben to account for his style of play. The hater however stated stuff like “Ben causes 60-80% of his sack”. Tht is getting off topic though great post!

by Steel34D on Aug 30, 2011 2:14 AM EDT reply actions  

It was the one "Comparing the best Defenses in NFL History"

Where you compared the 08’ Steelers to the best in history ’00 Ravens, ’76 Steelers, ’85 Bears etc.

by Steel34D on Aug 30, 2011 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, great information.

That is a ton of analysis – Funny, I had never paid any attention to the ’77 Falcons either until seeing the same show on the NFL network.

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great seeing you back around.

Hope you get time to give us more, but in a good way.

by Phantaskippy on Aug 30, 2011 3:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

I wish I had more time to do these, but my new job (well its been over a year now) doesn’t allow the amount of time that my previous job did. Better than having no job, though.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 30, 2011 12:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Where is Terry Bradshaw on the list?

And how does he so often get left out of the great Quarterback discussion, especially in the ’burgh?

by Blade of Steel on Aug 30, 2011 7:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks

If Rings were a column, he’d have to be up there, and I didn’t realize he was that far back with the fantasy stats.

by Blade of Steel on Aug 30, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was a running era

"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)

"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Aug 30, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was big when he needed to be

otherwise he was handing off.

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

But by the standards of his era, he was still an incredibly dominant QB.

This is why Rings count for a lot when it comes to the Hall.

"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will

by lottwasgangsta on Aug 30, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Doubt

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 31, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am surprised not to see Steve Young on the list?

But then did some research, he din’t get the start in SF until his 8th year and 29,000 of his 33,000+ yards came in SF. Wow, kind of a big guy not making the list.

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 9:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Since I was just looking at the first seven years of a players’ career, there are probably some big names left off. Anyone who didn’t start a lot in their first 3-4 years may not have made the cut.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 30, 2011 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

That one just jumped out at me as not being on the list

so I went to figure out why and did. ;)

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed

Growing up a 49ers fan, most of us were sure, for several years, that Young was NEVER going to develop into a starting caliber QB, just because he tried to run nearly every time things got hectic, rather than passing.

We were wrong about that. Also, I think Young may go down in history as the most under-appreciated Hall of Fame QB of all time, simply because of whom he came directly after.

Jeff Garcia has a similar argument among “pretty good” QBs.

"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will

by lottwasgangsta on Aug 30, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Overall great post

Thanks for the work you put in for the rest of us! great info.

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 9:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Great contrast to the new QBR developed by Trent Dilfer and ESPN

Can this be used to generate a QB rating?

"He had no teeth, and he was slobbering all over himself. I'm thinking, 'You can have your money back, just get me out of here. Let me go be an accountant." I can't tell you how badly I wanted out of there."
- Denver rookie QB John Elway, on Jack Lambert, after Lambert and the Steelers knocked Elway out of his first game as a pro (1983).

by Han on Aug 30, 2011 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Woodson is completely misguided

But I do think There is a black mark on Ben in and around the league. Whether it’s his rumored arrogance (I said rumored) or Midgville…….there is something going on. Rarely is he spoken of as an elite QB and He gets hit late all of the time…again this preseason with no flags. Also, he should have been the MVP of the cards Super Bowl. How he wasn’t is still beyond me.

by Majabe on Aug 30, 2011 2:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Every elite QB has a bit of arrogance

Ben has been described as a bit of a douchebag before, but that is no different from a guy like Phillip Rivers.

Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...

by StoneColdSteel on Aug 30, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

On that note, I hate rivers

I would probably love him if he were ours, because the guy is a good QB. however Rivers and LT just came off as some whiny B*tches to me a few years back – and the whole thing with being a douche to Cutler while they were pounding the Broncos – just don’t like the guy…

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 30, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

why?

how can you hate rivers? that guy is the embodiment of a “good ol boy” all he cares about is football..he played with a torn acl because his team needed him in the playoffs, while LDT (i won’t disgrace the name of lt by giving it to this whiny little b) is sitting on the sidelines with a stubbed toe…he is definitely not a a whiny b. and on top of that, he also seems like a great guy to hang out with

by FrankWyt on Sep 2, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

Without weighing in on it one way or the other, at least the other top QB’s, even if they are not likable people, have stayed out of legal trouble. I think that’s the reason for the somewhat different standard, and I have no sympathy for him with regard to it.

Friends in SD have also met Rivers, and, while they are incredibly biased, said he comes off as approachable and competitive, rather than just a jerk. He and Cutler both need someone to advise them on how to NOT look pouty on camera.

"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will

by lottwasgangsta on Aug 30, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Don't like Cutler either

not sure if he is a B*tch or just makes that face all the time, but really – you are getting paid to play football, cheer up. I just thought the whole thing with Rivers was completely classless and for lack of a better term – “unsportsmanlike conduct”. It isn’t like they were losing and something went down and he was pissed, they were winning and he was being a douche on camera – can’t stand the guy since then.

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 31, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

no offense

but you don’t know what’s going on in that mans life…it’s easy to look at it in simplistic terms like "you have money’ and “you play football for a living”
but for all you know, his girlfriend that he loved broke his heart, at the same time that his mom had cancer, and his dad killed himself… whether this is true or not is irrelevant, the point is..you don’t know what another person is going through..all you know is what you see on tv

by FrankWyt on Sep 2, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree, again...something is going on. Not big on conspiracy theories...but this is funny

My kids play madden and they tell me when they playBen can have 3 td’s and 300 yards and yet the MVP of the game is someone like Kiesel because he recovered a fumble in the end zone. They always laugh that Ben can never win the game MVP no matte what.

by Majabe on Aug 30, 2011 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

that's weird

i have a steelers franchise on madden 10 that i’ve been using since it came out (up to year 15, when ben retired)
and i’d say he was the player of the game in about 98% of my games that i won

by FrankWyt on Sep 2, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good stats but only tells part of the story

as evidenced by the fact that Daunte Culpepper has the same overall rating as Ben. In Culpepper’s case, the stats don’t show that he was throwing to Cris Carter and Randy Moss. There are so many variables influencing overall production, that true positional comparisons really have to be more limited/specific (i.e. which QB would do best in a given situation) and include scouting.

by Steelgator on Aug 30, 2011 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

True

Unfortunately, I just didn’t have time to go as deep as I would have liked. This analysis just gave me a quick way to see how Ben compared against other QBs 7 years into their careers. It would be interesting to do the same kind of query on DVOA and/or DYAR, but I don’t even know if FO has that capability on their website. I’d love to see it, though. That would give comparisons based on in game situations.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 30, 2011 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

so, we should, like, actually watch the game and stuff, yeah?

by klompus on Aug 30, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good idea, I am gonna run with that

"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin

by MDSTEELERSFAN on Aug 31, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  


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