Common (Mis)Conceptions About the NFL and the Pittsburgh Steelers (Part 2)
Read Part 1 of Ivan's series about many of the idiosyncrasies of America's new favorite national past time, and the round-the-clock coverage that we both rely on and are let down and duped by as hardcore NFL fans. -Michael B. -
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Experts:
Remember that controversial NFL Network exercise, The 100 Best Players in today's NFL as voted on by active players? What that demonstrated to me is that just because you have elevated yourself to be a professional football player does not in any way guarantee that you are a student of the game. To be sure, anyone who has gotten more than a cup of coffee in the NFL generally should be assumed to have a much better grasp of the substance and nuances of the game than all but a very few laypersons. But there is no reason to believe that, for example, a defensive lineman for the Seattle Seahawks could present any more of an informed opinion on the quality of wide receivers in the AFC South than anyone else who keeps up with websites, ESPN and the newspapers. It’s not part of their job description. If they want to offer opinions on offensive linemen playing for the Cardinals, 49ers or Rams, I’m all ears.
The tipoff for me was when they interviewed one of the players who had selected Ray Lewis as a top-five player. He pointed out that he had watched Lewis play and was a big fan when he was growing up. In other words, to a certain extent he was viewing this process through the lens of a star struck teenager as opposed to a detached professional. I understand the sentiment. If I could vote and they somehow put a uniform on seventy something HOFer Jim Brown, I would vote for him even if he couldn’t make it from the sideline to the huddle without the help of a wheelchair.
We are encouraged to believe that any former player can rise to the status of ‘expert analyst’ by slipping on a network blazer. While I make no claims to be an informed insider in this regard, I feel I’m on pretty solid ground to say that chief among the qualifications to be an analyst would be that one is marginally telegenic and articulate. Organizational skills and name recognition probably wouldn’t hurt either. But beyond that, what?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not just picking on ex-athletes here. Journalists do a lot of overreaching as well. Just this past week one or more Pittsburgh sports writers speculated that because they had not extended either Troy Polamalu or Mike Wallace that the team was prepared to cut ties with one or both players. Really? I won’t rule out that someone associated with the club told a reporter in confidence that this is what will transpire, but if you understand the culture of the team such a thing would be unlikely and probably frowned upon within the organization. Plus there is plenty of evidence from past experience to assume a well-planned and confidential strategy is being played out that will result in our retaining these key players. But the seed has been planted; the Steelers don’t care about Troy.
Journalists aren’t the end of the story either. Would someone please explain to me who the Hell is Mel Kiper Jr. and why do so many people pay attention to him? I don’t recall him ever saying that it was a sin and a shame that no one drafted James Harrison given the fact that he would be a defensive player of the year someday. Nor do I remember him castigating the League’s GMs for allowing Mike Wallace to fall to the second round of the draft. I’m thinking that if it’s that easy, a bunch of us here at BTSC could put our heads together and come up with some sort of player evaluation hustle that would be just as credible; and it beats the hell out of working for a living.
History:
The last two paragraphs speak to having a historical perspective when presented with the ‘expert’ opinions of others. This is often problematic. One reason this is true is that journalism in general, and sports/entertainment journalism in particular, has a problem distinguishing between what is urgent and what is important. More often than not they will see urgency and importance as one and the same. The past, when it exists at all, usually expressed in terms of statistics is often offered in improper context or no context whatsoever. The term "Lies, damn lies and statistics" actually speaks to the danger of presenting data out of an appropriate context. I’ll expand on this a bit later on.
I’ll bet anyone here that by the third Sunday of the season all the pregame shows will begin to pencil in teams for Indianapolis, and writing off others because ‘statistics show that teams that start the season 0-2 never make it to the playoffs’ or some such rubbish. Now, obviously if you’re going to end up 2-14 you need to get an early start. But it’s premature to say that a 0-2 start means that a team sucks (or that a 2-0 start means a team is Super Bowl bound). For the past several years the San Diego Chargers have been written off in October only to be still relevant in December. Nobody is humbled because nobody remembers.
Another bet. When the inevitable preseason and early season predictions are made for likely Super Bowl participants, if the Steelers are part of the conversation at all, it probably won’t be for what may be the most compelling argument in their favor, proven championship experience. The team that Pittsburgh is likely to field aside from a handful of rookies and free agents will consist of players who have at least one conference championship and a Super Bowl appearance under their belt. The majority of players will have appeared in at least two SBs and about a quarter of the roster that has played in three and are two time world champions. There is no other team that is even close in this regard, not even the Patriots (Their last championship was in ’04. In football terms that as a long time ago). The head coach is batting .500 in SB appearances; and he won’t turn 40 until next year. There is a considerable gap between teams that go to the Super Bowl and those who don’t. There is a bigger gap between those that go and win and those that don’t.
But as the late Dwight White once said, the biggest gap of all is between those teams that win multiple titles and those that only win once. Is there a Super Bowl jinx? Maybe. Is the team too old? Perhaps. But still, you’re gonna bet AGAINST these guys? Good luck.
Do you sometimes wonder why Ben doesn’t get more respect? The case could be made that he didn’t go to a prominent enough school, or that the whole Georgia thing has had an impact, or that there is some sort of anti-Steelers thing going on. But a historical perspective would say that Ben has committed the crime of defying quarterback orthodoxy. For decades the orthodoxy in the NFL is that all quarterbacks must be like (take your choice) Peyton Manning or Tom Brady; big, stand tall in the pocket kind of guys. Fran Tarkenton played for the Vikings and the Giants in the ‘60s and ‘70s. He’s in the Hall Of Fame and held the league passing record when he retired. There were similarities between him and Ben insofar as he scrambled around a lot, more than Ben actually. And this yielded the same advantages; it extended plays. An overweight five year old child can get open if given enough time (I may be exaggerating a little). Warren Moon couldn’t get a job in the NFL coming out of college. His problem was his skin color. Some time in Canada and a few Grey Cup Championships and they managed to find a place for him. He’s in the Hall Of Fame too. Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Randle Cunningham, Michael Vick, the list is long and varied of qbs that lack that ‘classic’ style of play. Ben? They won’t like it but don’t bet against him making the HOF too.
The Fantasy Culture:
A few years ago my daughter was captain of the women’s basketball team at the University of Delaware. The Blue Hens, picked by the preseason polls to finish no better than 5th in the Colonial Athletic Conference, surprised everyone to become the first team in over a decade other than Old Dominion to win the CAA regular season title. Though not as talented on paper as ODU, Delaware’s MO was strong fundamentals (for example, a 94% team free throw pct.), a relentless matchup zone defense and very strong team cohesion.
On the eve of the conference championship game an ODU assistant coach was asked what was the key to the Blue Hen’s success. She answered simply that they had "...eight people who play very well together." Delaware would eventually succumb on ODU’s home court in a game that was not decided until the final seconds. The key question was how could so many people be so wrong about the quality of this team? The answer is that Delaware’s strengths lay in qualities that are not easy to measure such as defense and team chemistry.
I believe that fantasy football has further skewed fan’s perceptions to rely upon measurables (statistics) over and above some very important intangible qualities such team culture, chemistry and other factors not so easy tracked by data. In addition, all too often it is believed what stats reveal are self-evident, little or no interpretation required. Take for example, our last preseason game. What do the 40+ pass attempts by Matt Ryan really represent? Some might say a belief in the vulnerability of the Pittsburgh secondary. What I think it represents is the fact that many, if not most teams abandon their running games when they play the Steelers before they get off the bus. With absolutely no confidence in the ground game they pass because they literally have nowhere else to go. With an aerial attack this massive and relentless, and a quarterback as talented as Ryan, it is unrealistic that there wouldn’t be some success. But if my top three cornerbacks aren’t on the field and the best that can accomplished on those many pass attempts is a paltry 16 points, I’ll take it with a smile on my face.
In the fantasy culture there is no recognition that stat rich offense can be effectively neutralized by stat ambiguous defense; that efforts of highly talented, incandescent stars can be trumped by the collaborative efforts of a relatively anonymous cadre of fundamentally sound, highly motivated players. Some of the strongest qualities possessed by Pittsburgh are things that are difficult to recognize even among trained observers. Jerrico Cochery acknowledged as much, stating that it wasn’t until he actually became a part of the Steeler locker room that he understood how different things were here as opposed to other teams.
Don’t get me wrong, statistics do tell a story. But you have to make certain it’s telling the right story, and it will almost never be the full story when it comes to team sports. It’s easy to be seduced by fantasy football values. But if you want a cautionary tale, look no further than the Washington Redskins, who have been trying to build a winner for the past 20 years by snatching up every high profile free agent they could get their hands on without regard to the logic of team culture and the demands of team chemistry. Their record over that period pretty much parallels that of the Pirates, if you want a point of reference. Yet isn’t it true that during the doldrums of the off season that some of us wonder wistfully why the Steelers can’t just be like everyone else and go on an Eagles-like shopping spree. It can be a pretty seductive idea.
Age and other factors in player development:
Simply put, players don’t enter universally at the same stage of development, they don’t necessarily develop at the same rate, and neither do they decline at the same rate. The implication that a player who has reached age 30 is automatically at death’s door athletically may still be true more often than not, especially as it relates to football, but it is less universally true than it was a generation ago as many players are doing a better job of extending their careers through improved training regimens, nutrition and other lifestyle enhancements. The nature of a players job, how they perform that job and the peculiar elements of their personal physiology will play a role as well. Troy Polamalu is less likely to last as long in the game as Charlie Batch because the nature of his position and his style of play is more destructive.
Nor is it wise to write off one player because they don’t reach their potential under some imaginary universal timetable. Maurkice Pouncey, LaMarr Woodley and Mike Wallace began playing at a very high level almost immediately. Troy Polamalu, Ziggy Hood and Antonio Brown took a little more time. The timetable for James Harrison, Lawrence Timmons, Willie Colon and Keenan Lewis was longer still. And in the case of the latter group each individual listed with the possible exception of Deebo was labeled a bust with the suggestion that the team cut ties. There are all kinds of reasons why players develop at different rates. There are different levels of physical maturity. At least three of Tomlin’s number one draft choices were 20 years old. In professional football terms a 20 year old isn’t a baby, he’s a premature baby. Timmons and Mendenhall are just now rounding into their full potential. A player from a 1AA program like Hofstra (Colon) may need more development time than a Pouncey who comes from a Florida. This is why so many of us wanted to give Limas Sweed every benefit of the doubt. In the end the story concluded in a disappointing way, but I rather have that than to cut ties in too rash a fashion and find ourselves with another Mike Vrabel or Johnny Unitas situation. Yes, we cut Johnny Unitas.
Just a few things to think about as we stand on the cusp of a season of great potential and promise. With luck there’ll be some smiles in these parts when we hit the holidays.
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Vrabel
To be fair, the Steelers (Cowher) knew what they had in Vrabel, they just could’t fit him in with Gildon, Holmes and Porter ahead of him…it was just a case of and abundance of riches at linebacker. If they had to do it over again, I think they would make the same decision.
AND
Vrabel is pretty much the only free agent to leave and be productive somewhere else. With that being said, I’ll still take Porter, and eventually, Harrison, over Vrabel. I don’t care how many touchdown passes my outside linebacker catches.
Vrabel was good player, but I’m really happy if he is our Biggest One That Got Away.
by Neal Coolong on Sep 1, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
EDIT
Of the free agency era, this doesn’t count Unitas
by Neal Coolong on Sep 1, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
He isn't
Two Words: Hardy Nickerson. Made the Pro Bowl 5 times after leaving Pittsburgh.
Two More Words: Rod Woodson. Made the Pro Bowl 4 times after leaving Pittsburgh.
The problem with Woodson, if I remember correctly, was that he didn’t want to switch to safety. Then he left the Steelers and eventually switched to safety.
Yes, his year at CB after leaving wasn’t good. However, the next year, his first in Baltimore he played corner, and had a great year. I think the problem was more the system or the team than him.
Here is a pretty good story on the event from the time (NY times, but it is a good job) We didn’t want him for anywhere close to good money, we didn’t have any left after signing Bettis. Had we paid him we probably get two good years out of him before he switches to FS, and then a bunch more.
After Rod left Pittsburgh he would start in two Super Bowls, then retire after 2003, right before Ben came to Pittsburgh.
I just wonder if Rod instead of Brent Alexander would have been enough to get us to a Super Bowl instead of Baltimore or Oakland. Just think about that for a bit.
Every once in a while you get one wrong, we did when we let Rod walk for cap issues, there was someone we could have cut to get him 1.5 million a year more.
by Phantaskippy on Sep 2, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Really good Article
I was devastated when we let Rod go, that article makes it worse. I never hated on him for being in another uniform, I just always hated that he wasn’t in ours.
I cut the FO slack, they have always tried to do the best for the team – most times they let beloved players go, they are right on with their timing. This time they weren’t.
I often wonder what could have been with Woodson – spilt milk, he is still one of my favorite Steelers. :)
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 2, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Chad Brown was pretty good also after.
If you buy a foreign made product you give money to a person who will not be buying an American made product that you get paid to make. Think about it next time you're at the store.
by SNW on Sep 1, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Who was that offensive lineman that was a first round pick out of Miami that left after his first contract ended? He was pretty good too. Man I suck at remembering names.
was it leon searcy?
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
by nycsteelerfan on Sep 1, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I was guessing..
Guess I was right! He went to jacksonville
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
by nycsteelerfan on Sep 1, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't care what BB wins..
He will NEVER get the recognition that Brady, Manning, Brees, Romo, etc, etc because he dissed the media numerous times and they NEVER forget. Plus, he’s not an “ass wipe” like many others. On a side not, Haynesworth was arrested for sexual assault and pleaded guilty to a sexual assault, misdemeanor..NO SUSPENSION!!
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
Yeah, where is the Haynesworth suspension?
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ced Benson.
4 arrests. 4 charges. 4 convictions/guilty pleas.
No suspensions.
Fuck you, Roger Goodell. Fuck you.
by HandsofSweed on Sep 1, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Benson
Plays for the Bengals. There isn’t a suspension that could compare to that fate.
by pistil_stamen on Sep 1, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
yep
Hands and pistil, both with great observations!!! NYC as always you have some really great points too : )
by steeler fever on Sep 1, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you!
Just pointing out that the BB suspension was a bunch of non sense!
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
by nycsteelerfan on Sep 1, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben's suspension was not fair, but it may have been the best thing that could have happened to Ben...
….and it remains an open question how much the Steelers’ ownership had to do with it. There was a lot going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about.
Nonetheless, the Steelers went 3-1 without him, and went to the Super Bowl when he came back. Ben was forced to look in the mirror and see himself as a man and not just a football player. Apparently, he didn’t like what he saw.
He seems to have turned his life around, and is now spending his personal and family time with his beautiful bride instead of in college bars.
In fact, the short season may have been a blessing in disguise for a guy who takes a beating just about every week. And the suspension may have helped Ben get his life on track, which is WAAAY more important than football.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
Good Points Homer
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 2, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
From a standpoint of what was best for Ben, it is probably good that it happened.
Now, speaking of the best thing for Ben, could we please have a penalty called when someone yanks his helmet off of his head???
+1
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 2, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
In fact...
You could say that Goodell not suspending him, and making him play games in Cincy means the severity level is actually going up.
I guess he will be suspended
while he is in jail in Austin
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 1, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
+4
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Super Bowl talk...
Always makes me nervous. The truth is, although no one wants to admit it, the best team doesn’t always make it to the Super Bowl, let alone win it.
Winning the Super Bowl takes a little bit of luck. That’s actually what makes it so compelling.
Both years we went to the Super Bowl recently, we didn’t face the Patriots. Also, both years, the higher seed was knocked out letting us host the AFC Championship game. Did we earn our spot in the dance? Sure, but there was a little luck involved, too.
I say all of this to say that I don’t care who the experts pick. It doesn’t matter because no one really knows. Not Peter King, not Ivan Cole, not Markjoel66.
As for players, the Steelers as an organization looks for selfless guys, pay them fairly, and put them in a position to succeed. Some of those guys succeed extremely well and move on. Others stay here because they are comfortable in the system and like it here.
This builds championships, but make it really hard to be a fan in the off season. The only time we get press is when Ben does something stupid or Harrison mouths off in a Men’s magazine. There is almost never anything about the brilliant transactions the Steelers are doing in the offseason. Because their moves aren’t brilliant, in the way the tortoise wasn’t brilliant against the rabbit. They seem boring in fact. But the FO thinks, “What’s wrong with a defense that went to the Super Bowl? Why change it?”
But I get why the media ignores us. What is compelling about the fact that we brought back the same guys we had last year? There is no news there. No one has said a peep about Ben this year — and that’s a good thing. It’s like our esteemed forum leader said in his preview: “Same Old Steelers.”
But the Steeler Nation likes it that way. I almost regret having ESPN name us the number one football fanbase. I wish we weren’t in the news about how we can take over a stadium. It was cooler when no one knew about it but us (because its been going on for years.)
This all reminds me of what The Chief said when they started calling Dallas America’s Team. He said: “Let them, we want to be Pittsburgh’s team.”
The fact is that we were all proud of being from Pittsburgh before the Steelers started winning Super Bowls. The Steelers gave us a rallying point in a time when the city was shaken to its blue collar core. But the pride in Pittsburgh predates the Steelers.
Rooneys get that. They didn’t try to make Pittsburgh a Steelers town…they made the Steelers a Pittsburgh team. There may be no other franchise in sports that blends a city’s persona with a Sports team like Pittsburgh and its Steelers.
That’s why we don’t care about the National Media. It’s OK if they don’t understand what the Steelers’ front office is thinking when they put together their team… they didn’t do it for them. They did it for Pittsburgh. For us. And we love them for it.
by MarkJoel66 on Sep 1, 2011 7:35 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Couldn't agree with you more Mark
It’s the luckiest team. That’s why this year will be a bit nerve wracking because the Steelers are really very good. But that might not be enough.
by Ivan Cole (RickVa) on Sep 1, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
In a way its a good thing
Otherwise, it would make the 16 games of the regular season awfully boring…
Nor do I remember him castigating the League’s GMs for allowing Mike Wallace to fall to the second round of the draft.
Even worse, he was taken in the third. He’d be a top 10 pick if they did that draft again today. I know everyone hates Mel Kiper, and no one else in media has a higher probability of being wrong than him, but when the rubber meets the road, the draft is a crapshoot, and it’s next to impossible to predict. I respect the depth of knowledge he has, and the fact he’s a big part of the reason the draft is as popular as it is.
Full disclosure: I’m a complete non-fan of college football outside of the pro prospect side of it, so I follow him more than perhaps anyone else.
What I think it represents is the fact that many, if not most teams abandon their running games when they play the Steelers before they get off the bus.
Teams ran against Pittsburgh a league-low 20 times a game last year. Two less carries per game than the second-lowest (Atlanta). I think it was just more to get Ryan some live throws to help gel the offense. Teams won’t typically game-plan for preseason games, not even the third one. Could be though they decided to focus on the pass cuz they’d only be pissed with the film of them trying to run.
great read
thanks
People don't ever seem to realize that doing what's right is no guarantee against misfortune.
- William McFee
Always good to see someone else with ties to my alma mater, the U of Delaware!
1998-2003. Ironically, I met my wife in North Carolina, but she was from north Jersey and was this > < close to going to UD, too.
Commentors’s note: this has NOTHING to do with the Steelers, or even football for that matter.
Great writeup Ivan, well made points
and living in the DC area like you, I can definitely relate to the Skins analogy – it has been hard to watch for such a proud organization with such a great fanbase.
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
Intangibles....
…are what make the Steelers so great. Guys like Smitty, Snack and Diesel are at the top of their trade, but willingly work anonymously in the trenches. When they do their job right – which is almost all the time – the linebackers make the big plays. The DL guys get damn few sacks, damn few stats, and never complain.
And when the Steelers go free agent shopping (which they do), they end up buying blue collar, unappreciated guys like MeMo, KFox, and Baraka Atkins. They’ll never spend a hundred million on a Haynesworth. They’ll spend that money to pay their own guys first, and then go look for an unappreciated blue-collar free agent who will fit in here.
Great read.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
Cotchery
just another blue collar FA
People don't ever seem to realize that doing what's right is no guarantee against misfortune.
- William McFee
by stillergorillar on Sep 1, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
In 2012 Cotchery will be so valuable to the Steelers
With one year under his blet, he can step into Hines’ role as the slot receiver and mentor to the young WR. What a pick up.
by Steeler Nation VA on Sep 1, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Does that mean...
No more Hines?
That’s strange to think about. I think he and Polamalu, more than any other players, have defined the team for most of the past decade.
Things change, especially in this business…
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at the play of the youngsters
I don’t think you can Really justify keeping Hines in the top of the lineup for much longer. I say that with an uneasiness, as Hines has BEEN Pittsburgh for so long now and has been so dependable throughout that time, but soon it will come down to production and who you can get more out of – Hines unfortunately will soon go the way of Art Monk, the best receiver ever to play in Washington, still productive to his last day, but pushed out by younger guys (the talent level in Washington when Monk got let go was not the same though, his release was a bad move for the team).
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I definitely think you are correct...
I was making a sentimental observation, rather than a practical argument.
Depending on what the team does this year in the post-season, how Sanders and Brown do over the entire season, and who Wallace matures into, the end for Hines COULD be as soon as the end of this year, and most likely not past next season, if that.
He DOES still serve as quite the security blanket though,and given how good the young receivers who work with him have gotten, you’d have to assume the organization might want to keep him as a mentor/coach.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
To you and Steeler Fever
i was doing the same, more of an observation than argument – it is gonna happen, the only matter is time. To both your point and mine – how much will the young guys produce this year? If they do anything like Brown has done in the preseason, Hines days are numbered.
Steeler Fever – Lottwasagangsta and I are both making the same point as you – Hines is the man and is still producitve, but how long will he be MORE productive than the guys under him in the depth chart? They aren’t going to have him be the #2 receiver for the running game. Hopefully he has and is teaching these young bucks to block like him, but it is a matter of time and the production I have seen out of Brown says sooner rather than later.
That being said, it will be a sad day to no longer see #86 in the Black and Gold. He has been unlike any before him with his toughness and that mixed with the trademark smile – irreplaceable. But in the big picture, it is what have you done for me lately – I hope he leaves on his own terms, otherwise he will be pushed out soon.
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
WHOA
Hines is still looking good from the little I saw of him in the preseason. Still making the big catches. Still throwing the mean blocks. Still has the big smile! Still a great leader! Sure he’s getting older but Hines never has been a speed receiver. Hes been more about technique and toughness and sure hands!!!
Yeah I am sentimental with him…..but still
by steeler fever on Sep 1, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Hines Ward...
Will never be cut from this team.
Cotchery has a one-year deal anyway. Far less certain to be back next season than Ward.
Never, there is something about that word that is bugging me
can’t put my finger on it, but… I think that Hines will leave on his own (hopefully after a successful Superbowl win this year), but I definitely wouldn’t say never, it’s a business, and smart money may soon be on young money…
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
never...
Hines is one of the smartest men in football—he made himself who he is by playing his position as it had never been played before; in the Gameday video of the Atlanta game, Billy and Tunch are agog at how he uses his body and reads a play—and he thinks of his team before himself.
I don’t think he wants to be the guy still pulling a paycheck because he can’t look in the mirror. In fact, this whole Dancing with the Stars etc. I think came about because he’s looking at the end and if they’d won the Super Bowl last year, he might already be gone. He’s there because he thinks he can still pull his weight and the FO agrees.
Brett Farve was suppose to be a Packer for life
He was NEVER expected to leave the Packers and was suppose to retire a Packer. Jerry Rice was NEVER suppose to leave the 49ers but he was a Seahawk and a Raider. Emmit Smith was NEVER suppose to leave the Cowboys but he was a Cardinal when retired. The fact is the organization has let people go when not needed and Hines can reach that point. Not saying they would cut him in the next 1-2 years but any longer than that he maybe cut/traded or whatever they can do with him.
THAT
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one
Who has never been that impressed with Moore?
I realize he DOES do a lot of things decently, but it seems like they should be able to upgrade him without either overpaying or overdrafting.
I remember being particularly unimpressed with him during the ‘08 SB run. Don’t know exactly why, just don’t think he’s that good, and do not understand the sentimentality around him.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Baron Batch will soon own that spot
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
True
may he recover quickly, and Dwyer get his ass in shape and start producing.
Next Fall: Mendenhall (needs to be used for his receiving talents more often), followed by Redman, slim-Dwyer, and Batch, and you have a running backs group that is as deep as the receivers currently. Exciting.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Very exciting
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks so much for the perspective!
I had so much fun with this article. Incredibly thoughtful, thought-provoking and on-target, especially for the perpetually impatient fan.
So…Ivan…call me when you decide to create or start up
some sort of player evaluation hustle that would be just as credible; and it beats the hell out of working for a living.
Also, maybe we should start a blog that calls these guys out:
Nobody is humbled because nobody remembers.
Great, great line!
"He has the best ability, which is availability." - Mike Tomlin
"You can't make the club from the tub." - Mike Tomlin
"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Pogo (1970)
Probably the best article on the Steelers I've read all preseason.
Great points and good clear writing, Ivan. It might help that I agreed with everything you said, I just wish I would have thought some of it before I read it, lol. Really, a fine read and will recommend to mt Steeler friends who have not yet made this site a daily habit.
I agree with MarkJoe that the best team doesn’t alwys win the SB. That being said, I believe we are much improved over last years team. Better depth in the DB and DL and the receivers really are the best corps in the NFL. If Manny gets to 100%, there’s no limit to what this offense can achieve. Assuming the LT position isn’t a disaster and Harrison recovers from his surgery (he’s worrying me more than a bit right now), we should make a hell of a run at it.
GO STEELERS!
"He had no teeth, and he was slobbering all over himself. I'm thinking, 'You can have your money back, just get me out of here. Let me go be an accountant." I can't tell you how badly I wanted out of there." Denver rookie QB John Elway, on Jack Lambert, after Lambert and the Steelers knocked Elway out of his first game as a pro (1983).
by madanthonywayne on Sep 1, 2011 10:14 AM EDT reply actions
I think they make a run at it anyway
But probably without Harrison for some games. He’s clearly not at his best, might need more recovery time, and Worilds at 100% is probably as effective as Harrison at far less than that.
Two years ago, when they drafted Worilds, Sly, and Gibson, I was REALLY irritated that they didn’t pick up either OL or CB depth. Still feel that way, to some extent, but I think this IS the season where they see if Worilds is in their future plans, in the several games he is likely to start. Also, re-signing Woodley looks better and better.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Always it must be remembered with the media
and not just football or sports media, but all media need to SELL a story. They must choose topics and write with a slanted point of view to generate interest.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
--Aristotle
Tremendous Article
Well written with great content.
wrecked
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Sep 1, 2011 10:36 AM EDT reply actions
Great job
thoroughly enjoyed the time spent not working(while at work) reading this
Things can always be worse....
I believe that fantasy football has further skewed fan’s perceptions to rely upon measurables (statistics) over and above some very important intangible qualities such team culture, chemistry and other factors not so easy tracked by data.
Could be the wisest statement ever made on this site. Agree completely. It indirectly tricks people into thinking they understand what a West Coast Offense really is, or the value difference between a sack and a hurry (both are +1s for the defense but only one is given consistent weight statistically).
To be fair, the purpose of Fantasy Football is to take the guys who score points; the game itself doesn’t provide any false pretense about it being about the best football players. However, far too many people play Fantasy Football and Madden and think they understand how the game is played. Too much weight is placed on the ability of one or two players, and the stats they generate are mistakenly attributed to the overall quality of the offense or defense they’re on.
In 20 years, when history is judging this generation of players, it will provide statistical evidence that Albert Haynesworth was a better defensive tackle than Casey Hampton. Such a thought makes me sick, because Hampton was never used in a position where he’d generate much statistically, but he so dominated his position for so long, we have grown to expect a defense that is so strong against the run, teams flat-out abandon the idea of running the ball.
He made his teammates so much better over the years, and Haynesworth simply rushed the passer. Hampton will have his rings when it’s all said and done, but he won’t ever get the individual recognition he’s earned throughout his career because his role isn’t to generate stats; it’s to enable those around him to generate stats.
You could extend that to many positions.
- Defensive End: Freeney vs Aaron Smith. They play totally different positions. I’ll take Smith any day.
- Tight End: V Davis vs. Heath Miller. Heath is a complete TE. Davis is a big WR. Different positions. I’ll take Heath.
by Steeler Nation VA on Sep 1, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Technically, yes, the comparison piece can be made, but Freeney has had a Hall of Fame career in doing what he does. He’s a great player, and has been his entire career – moreso than Haynesworth. Vernon Davis has improved quite a bit, and he was always said to be a project kind of player with great upside. He’s coming into his own now, as a receiver and a blocker.
I don’t mind my guys over either of those two either, but I don’t think the difference in praise varies as much between your examples and Haynesworth vs. Hampton.
Just my opinion,
by Neal Coolong on Sep 1, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with Neal
A. Smith and Freeney play REALLY different positions, between the 3-4 and 4-3. Both are great in their own niche, and neither could do what the other does anywhere near as effectively.
Both are premiere players, though Freeney is perhaps over-rated, due to scheme, their offense, and his one-dimensional strength as a pass rusher. Sacks always get more attention, but he IS a liability against the run.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
His style of play and what the Colts ask of him makes him a liability against the run.
I’m sure if they told him to play the run first, he could do it just as well as he rushes the passer.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Sep 1, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure he'd give it an honest effort....
But on those occasions when teams have run directly at him, it’s worked pretty well in their favor. He could probably do BETTER against the run, but if he was as good against the run as he is at pass rushing, the Colts are idiots if they haven’t gotten him to do it. They are not idiots, so in all likelihood, they know what he can and cannot excel at.
You are right in that he’s doing what he’s asked, but they ask him to do that in part because of his limitations as a run-stopper, and much like Jared Allen, he often takes HIMSELF out of plays by getting to far upfield, looking for the flashy sack. But, if there was a player who was both AS good a pass rusher as Freeney, AND as good against the run, he would be the DPOY most of his career.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
If he focused on it, and just gave up as soon as he saw the QB keeping it, he could be good.
But yeah, that’s a pretty dumb strategy for such a good pass-rusher.
And a lot of people would disagree with you about the Colts coaches not being idiots, especially those at the Colts blog.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Sep 1, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no doubt you are correct
But notice that the Colts coaches are the Colts coaches, whereas as the people on the Colts blog, well…they are us, with a different zip code, and a lot less success during the playoffs. They MAKE them, they just usually do not prosper.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm also of the opinion
that the organization has spread itself a little thin OTHER than Manning. You can’t have one person take up THAT much cap space, and still try to field a solid enough team around him. I know you have to pay him like a star, but there’s a lot, and then there’s A LOT. Manning demands the latter.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah. All the eggs have always been in one basket in Indy.
Granted, it’s been a pretty safe basket over the years, but all of a sudden, the basket’s wearing out.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by ISN on Sep 1, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Speak of which
Is it time for the Steelers to start thinking about a mid-round pick that they can groom over the next couple years, in the case that THEIR current basket either can’t stay out of trouble of starts to age quickly due to hits/style of play?
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think so
Ben’s only 29 and in his prime. Should have a lot more time with him. And hopefully more SB rings! I like what we are doing with our backups now when we had batch and byron. Reliable and experienced. Hated to see Byron go down. When Ben nears the end of his career hopefully we will have to move up in the first round and get a high first round talent to be BB replacement. I am not saying you can’t get a Championship caliber QB in later rounds but usually they come from the first.
by steeler fever on Sep 1, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree
Hence the value of grabbing a mid-round guy with some potential, and seeing what he turns into.
If Batch or Dixon aren’t Steelers in a year or two, the team could see what he develops into. If Roethlisberger continues to play at an elite level, no problem, trade him for something great. If anything goes wrong, there’s a decent, young talent in there, who will know the system…
Unless we think Dixon is that guy, and he probably is not.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, we definitely need to draft a back up in the next year or two
Batch is likely to retire and move to QB coach, and Dixon wants a shot to play, so he will likely be gone next year too. Lefty might be back, but we would still need to take a flyer on someone.
"The standard is the standard" - Mike Tomlin
by MDSTEELERSFAN on Sep 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
would rather
We didn’t spend a mid-round pick on back up QB who we never plan on starting. Much rather we bring in a veteran who has proven to be a capable starter but just not on an elite level ie: Batch and Byron.
Who would you rather have as back up….Dixon or Kerry Collins? I would rather have Collins!
by steeler fever on Sep 4, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Freeney can't stop the run
They have said that they will not play him in obvous run down. Pass when he is out and run at him when he is in their. Just pound him with a pulling guard and FB. It will slow down his pass rush after awhile.
by Steeler Nation VA on Sep 1, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
VD started out as a freak athlete who seemed to have trouble holding the ball.
Then, he became a terrific receiver with incredibly inconsistent blocking.
His pass blocking is still a bit suspect, but his run blocking is nasty, and while I think Miller is a tremendous all around player, Davis is who I would take.
He is one of three bright spots on my sad 49ers team.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
What a nickname "VD"
I’ll still take Heath.
by Steeler Nation VA on Sep 1, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, our other guy
Is nicknamed Crabs.
It’s cool though- they’re both fairly fast, so it’s hard to catch them.
No team could complain about either of them.
"Football combines the two worst things about America: It is violence punctuated by committee meetings" -George Will
by lottwasgangsta on Sep 1, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Especially enjoyed your point about history
It would be trite to say that not every player is a student of NFL history, even recent. What is now very much disappointing is that not every sportswriter as well. I am constantly flabbergasted at the poor quality of analysis I see on most sites, because it lacks that historial perspective. In that, they reflect TV analysts as well.
For someone like me who “grew up” as a football fan reading the likes of Paul Zimmerman, I found myself after his ill-fated stroke to be an orphan as far as that essential historical perspective was concerned. His considerable shoes have not been filled by anyone at SI, with King and Banks only able to recall discussions with Dr. Z when it comes to historical reflection.
Kudos on taking on this line of thought, it is very sobering as we’ve entered a bizarro pre-season unlike any most of us have ever known, where hype and expectations are into the stratosphere, while it’s most likely that the end product will end up being desperately and not unexpectedly, normal.
"You have two hemispheres in your brain - a left and a right side. The left side controls the right side of your body and right controls the left half. It's a fact. Therefore, left-handers are the only people in their right minds."
Bill "Spaceman" Lee
Source: Sports Illustrated (April 7, 1980)
by Flying Polamalus on Sep 1, 2011 1:52 PM EDT reply actions
History, it is said, is written by the winners.
There are very few sportswriters who are winners. Many of them try to write for the winners, or at least whom they see as winners. They miss stuff, sometimes on purpose. They add nonsequitorial nonsense as if it made a difference. Above all, they protect their best sources, and suck up to them shamelessly.
There are exceptions, but, by and large, “The Natural” had it right.
My heros have always been Steelers...
What wozzle just said.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
Yes, we cut Johnny Unitas.
we also cut Len Dawson, but then again so did Paul Brown
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
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