O Line and the Draft - how we got here
by franz on Sep 27, 2011 8:59 PM EDT
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PrintHow did the vaunted Steelers running game come to this? Why has Big Ben continued to be hit, harrassed and sacked since taking over the starting position? Why are the Steelers struggling in short yardage and at the goalline?
My contention is that a fundamental shift has occurred from the top down which has affected every aspect of the team. On offense, the Steelers have changed who they re-sign, who they draft, and how they are going to go about winning their next Super Bowl. I believe that the leadership of the organization has gambled and is now about to bust out on this season. Meaning, they were a Super Bowl team last year and will struggle to win the division or gain a wild card spot this season.
The Steelers have more than enough offensive weapons, too much money invested in too few players and an aging defense which is having a hard time defending a good passing attack. By putting the onus on Ben and the receiving corps to move the ball through the air, they have become a team which seemingly wants to outscore their opponents. The Steelers of old won by possessing the ball and playing an attacking style of defense which denied their foe's running game, made them one dimensional and opened up the blitz scheme when teams sought to come from behind.
That worked for a long time but that model is losing ground for three reasons:
1) The Steelers can't cover all those guys. Other teams are gaining on the Steelers defense by use of personnel, formations and play calling. The Super Bowl was a microcosm of how the league is getting ahead of the Steelers. Pass early, pass often and force the Steelers marquise pass rushers to cover quick receivers instead of stuffing the run and rushing the passer. How do you stop Harrison and Woodley from doing what they do best? You force them into coverage. How? You send 4 or 5 receivers onto the field and send them all out into the secondary. The Steelers coverage unit is not equipped to stop a quick passing attack.
Why you say? Because the Steelers have spent too much money on linebackers who can run forward and not enough money on DBs who can backpedal and cover wide receivers. The William Gay phenomenon is alive and well. Games against New England, New Orleans and even Baltimore have shown that mismatches in the pass game are killing the Steelers.
Since the 2006 draft, the Steelers have not drafted a DB in rounds 1 or 2. Their 3 top selections since then are all 3rd rounders, none of them are on the starting unit nor do they scare any offensive coordinator.
2) The Steelers are not commited to running the ball. That would be fine if they could keep Roethlisberger upright and unmolested. They have so much money invested in players who can not block, that they have undermined their ability to run the ball effectively and consistently get the ball downfield. Their roster bears this out . They have no true FB, one decent TE, one first round draft pick on the line and lots of offensive skill players who never know if Ben is going to be running for his life or on his ass by the time they planned on getting the ball. No veteran FA has been signed in the off season to improve the offensive line.
3) The Steelers are not commited to building a dominant Offensive or Defensive Line. The Steelers won SB 43 with a banged up and maligned offensive line. This may have emboldened the front office to try and get just enough line play while saving money to spend elsewhere. Pouncey is the only guy on offensive line who is a #1 draft pick. But this strategy seems to have started after winning SB 40 in 2005. Since the 2006 draft, the Steelers have chosen 10 offensive linemen. Of these, they have drafted only 2 offensive linemen in rounds 1, 2 and 3 combined. That means that with the 18 picks in those top three rounds in the last 6 NFL drafts, the Steelers got 1 starter on the offensive line through the draft.
Unfortunately, the same can be said of the defensive line. They only have 2 picks out of those 18 draft slots used on D linemen.
They drafted 4 linebackers in that same time frame in rounds 1,2 and 3. They drafted a total of 50 players in that time and selected 8 linebackers. That's all well and good if you have a decent offensive line.
Current Steelers Offensive Linemen
Trai Essex 2005 3rd round selection 25 career starts
Ramon Foster UFA 2009 13 career starts
Marcus Gilbert 2nd round selection 2011 2 career starts
Chris Kemoeatu 2005 6th round selection 47 career starts
Doug Legursky UFA 2008 7 career starts
Jamon Meredith 2009 5th round by Packers 0 career starts This is his 5th NFL team in 3 seasons
Maurkice Pouncey 2010 1st round selection 19 career starts
Chris Scott 2010 5th round selection 0 career starts
Jonathon Scott 2006 5th round by Lions 26 total, 12 starts for Steelers
The group of linemen above is made up of two guys who can play the part - one very well and we know who that is. Kemo is average and the rest of these guys are either retreads or duds. Chris Scott and Jamon Meredith are sucking up two valuable roster spots, while Trai Essex is on a one year contract and has never contributed much. Most of these guys are slow and marginally athletic. The Steelers need to get back to drafting quality offensive linemen. They won 2 Super Bowls largely through great defense and a much better offensive line. Faneca, Smith and Simmons were selected in the first, second and first rounds respectively.
Below you will find who the Steelers picked versus who they could have picked in those drafts for the offensive line. The Steelers selections are in bold. Note the large group of quality linemen available in 2006, 2007 and 2009. Would we be a better team today if we had just 1 or 2 of these guys on our active roster? I say yes. The wealth of linebackers and receivers doesn't seem to offset the problems at offensive line (and defensive back). Having Timmons and Worilds is nice but the Steelers can't afford them plus Foote, Farrior, and the rest. Too many roster spots for the same position. What say you?
2006
Santonio Holmes WR 1st round#25 61 starts, SB 43 MVP
Traded away 2nd round pick to move up in 1st round
Offensive linemen still available:
Nick Mangold C 1st round #29 82 consecutive starts since drafted
Winston Justice T 2nd round #39 41 starts
Deuce Lutui G 2nd round #41 72 starts
Marcus McNeill T 2nd round #50 76 starts
Daryn Colledge G 2nd round #47 79 starts
Andrew Whitworth G 2nd round #55 73 starts
Jeremy Trueblood T 2nd round #59 71 starts
Chris Chester G 2nd round #56 49 starts also played TE for 4 weeks in 2008.
2007
Lawrence Timmons LB 1st round#15 33 starts.
Lamar Woodley LB 2nd round#46 50 starts 2009 Pro Bowl.
Offensive linemen still available:
Joe Staley T 1st round #28 53 starts Moved from RT to LT in '08. 6 yr. extension in 2009.
Ben Grubbs G 1st round#29 61 starts
Arron Sears G 2nd round#35 31 starts 2007 NFL All-Rookie award. Concussion injury since 2009.
Justin Blalock G 2nd round#39 65 starts
Tony Ugoh T 2nd round#42 27 starts
Ryan Kalil C 2nd round#59 50 starts Pro Bowl 2010 & '09 2nd team.
.....2011 franchise tag, Currently highest paid Center in NFL history
Samson Saetele C/G 2nd round#60 62 starts 2007 All Rookie Team
2008
Rashard Mendenhall 1st round #23 32 starts
Limas Sweed 2nd round#53 0 starts Released August 2011 after 2 years on non-football Injured list and IR.
Offensive linemen still available:
Duane Brown T 1st round#26 47 starts Started every game at LT since drafted
Chilo Rashal G 2nd round#39 38 starts
Mike Pollack G 2nd round# 34 starts
2009
Ziggy Hood DE 1st round#32 10 starts
Kraig Urbik G 3rd round#79 0 starts Since released in Sept. 2010 has 4 starts at Buffalo Bills
Offensive linemen still available:
Eben Britton T 2nd round#39 23 starts
Max Unger C/G 2nd round#49 20 starts
Andre Levitre G 2nd round#51 35 starts 2009 NFL All-Rookie team
Phil Loadholt T 2nd round#54 34 starts
Sebastian Volmer T 2nd round#58 25 starts AP 2010 All Pro Team
William Beatty T 2nd round#64 9 starts
2010
Maurkice Pouncey 1st round#18 19 starts 2010 Pro Bowl.
Jason Worilds 2nd round#52 0 starts
Bryan Bulaga T 1st round#20 15 starts NFL All-Rookie team
Rodger Saffold T 2nd round#33 16 starts Voted to multiple All Rookie teams
Zane Beadles G 2nd round#45 17 starts Sporting News' All-Rookie Team
Vladimir Ducasse T 2nd round#61 0 starts
Charles Brown T 2nd round#64 0 starts
2011
Cameron Heywood DE 1st round#31 0 starts
Marcus Gilbert T 2nd round#63 2 starts
Offensive linemen still available:
Derek Sherrod T 1st round#32 0 starts
Orlando Franklin T 2nd round#46 3 starts
Stefen Wisnewski G 2nd round#48 3 starts Central Catholic and Penn State alum
Ben Ijalana G 2nd round#49 0 starts
Rodney Hudson C 2nd round#55 0 starts
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Good post, but . . .
You mention in point 3 that the Steelers “are not committed to building a dominant Offensive or Defensive line”. But that’s not necessarily the case. Certainly the Steelers are committed to building and maintaining a dominant defensive line, as two of their last three first round picks have been devoted to the defensive line, and both have solid, if not Pro-Bowl, potential. They used the other first round pick in that time frame on Pouncey, who made the Pro Bowl his first year. We only get one first round pick per year, and it’s never in the top 10, where you find the top talent at offensive tackle, which we need. Holmes was a good choice in 2006, and was instrumental in our 6th Super Bowl trophy. In 2007, we needed both Timmons and Woodley, as Porter was not being retained and Clark wasn’t exceptional, and both are turning out to be necessary components of a top-ranked defense. While Sweed was an unfortunate bust in 2008, Mendenhall was a necessity because Parker was on his last legs, and he has turned out to be a very good back, with power and speed. It’s hard to pick up a top-notch talent at tackle, especially left tackle, unless you’re picking in the top ten, which we haven’t been doing, and left tackles taken after that are often reaches. If you’re going to reach, it’s best to do so later in the draft. As for guards, rarely does a team jump for a guard in the first round, as most teams feel they can find solid starters at guard in the mid to later rounds. So I think Pittsburgh is committed to developing a dominant offensive line, they’re not about to reach for someone in the latter parts of the first round when he might turn out to be a bust. And I don’t think it would have been feasible to trade back into the second round to take Unger or Levitre in 2009. It would have cost us too much. The only thing we can really do to get a top notch tackle or guard is spend money in free agency, and unfortunately, we don’t have that kind of money this year.
disagree
If you’re going to reach, it’s best to do so later in the draft.
If you need a quality guy you can’t reach later in the draft. That’s how the OL got here…
by Steely McSmash on Sep 27, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I seeing that you overvalue other teams players
There was a reason we traded up to get Holmes. With Holmes we don’t win SB 43. You seriously think that Cedric Wilson could have done what Holmes did for us?
As for the O-line the only one I’d have taken was Mangold. Justice was demoted from a LT to a RT, Mcneil is only a above average T not worth a 1st round pick, the others were not worth a 1st round pick.
Timmons has way more impact and was far more worth that spot than Staley, Ugoh was let go by a very O-line needy Colts team, Grubbs is the only worth while player, but he would not have helped us beat the Ravens in 08 like Woodley.
If we don’t pick up Mendenhall who is running the ball behind this great O-line you want to build? Duane Brown was a huge reach and only now has he started to play like a 1st round tackle. Pollack can’t start for the colts unless he is a center only in which we wouldn’t draft him.
You complain we haven’t spent enough picks on D-line and then you want to replace one of the few we did? None of those guys are having any success except Vollmer but who saw that coming?
And it is way too early to asses the 2010 and 2011 drafts.
I case you didn’t know we believe in BPA Best Player Available. The Steelers thought process is why take the guy who grades out as a 2nd round talent when I could take the guy who should have gone in the top 15?
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
+1
BPA really hasnt let us down, at least in the first. Now if we start talking about second round picks we could have an argument.
by steelerintexas on Sep 27, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
BPA
is just a story Kevin Colbert tells every year so he doesn’t have to answer stupid questions at draft time. Every team including this one drafts players at positions where they need players. You point this out yourself with the defense of the Tone pick. If you want BPA why ever trade up to get a guy? If you’re truly BPA, you really don’t give a crap who you get, just see who’s left on top of the heap and send in the card. “Who’d we get this year? Oh 5 TE and 2 QB? Super, they must be the best. Can’t wait to get them out to old Latrobe so they can start pulling hamstrings!”
The Steelers draft philosophy lately involves them secretly falling in love with a few players and then seeing who’s available near where they pick.
I personally agree that we draft too many linebackers and LT was neglected from the time Marvel Smith went down until this past draft. I know we all wish we had Starks back now but really he was below average as well. The flipside of the coin though is that for a lot of those years we really had no depth at LB, seemed like 2 new UDFA scrubs made the team every year.
by Steely McSmash on Sep 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
haha BPA just a story.
Of course nobody is truly BPA. As long as we have Ben we will never draft a QB in the 1st round until he is way over 30. Its more of a looking at your needs and then which player is more worth our current pick. Look at the 2006 draft from picks 25-32
25 Pittsburgh Steelers Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
26 Buffalo Bills John McCargo DT North Carolina State
27 Carolina Panthers DeAngelo Williams RB Memphis
28 Jacksonville Jaguars Marcedes Lewis TE UCLA
29 New York Jets Nick Mangold C Ohio State
30 Indianapolis Colts Joseph Addai RB Louisiana State
31 Seattle Seahawks Kelly Jennings CB Miami (Fla.)
32 New York Giants Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
Not only was Holmes more talented and valuable than all but one of those players He also fit a bigger need. Mangold would not have helped us win a SB like Holmes did.
The lack of a LT has more to do with our continually drafting high in the 1st. Your want a quality LT? That will cost a top 10 pick. We are not going to reach for a 2nd round talent guy at a postion of need like Sam Baker. Instead we will take the guy who should have gone earlier in Mendenhall.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Duane Brown.. just above. And Holmes < Williams. Rashard DEFINITELY < Williams. And Holmes way < Mangold.
Williams as in DeAngelo Williams?
The DeAngelo Williams who has put up 4,272 in 6 years with only 2 1,000 yard sesaon? Who out of 67 possible games since 06 has only played in 40? You think he is better and would have provide a bigger impact than Holmes?
I’ll agree that Mangold is better than Holmes but we don’t win the SB with out Holmes. I doubt Mangold could have provide the same impact.
By the way Mendenhall has put up 2,587 in 4 years in the NFL despite playing with a worse O-line and missing all but 4 games of his rookie year.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Mendenhall as in Rashard Mendenhall. The guy who talked shit his first year and let Ray put him in the locker room. The guy who couldn’t get on the field because of his focus problems, the guy who has been a fantasy stud for one (just one) full year. Also, the guy who doesn’t have as competent a backup as Williams does in Carolina.
You have Stewart and Williams, are you rushing Williams out to play when Stewart is 100%?
06 – Missed a handful of games with a sprained ankle (he was the backup at the time, no rush to bring him back)
07 – He is the backup for the majority of the time. Gets 144 carries and a 5.0 YPC.
08 – First year as a starter and first year with JStew. He scores 20 total touchdowns and is damn close to averaging a hundred yards a game. This season alone blows the roof off.
09 – He misses 3 full games and most of 2. Still has over 1000 yards and gets 7 TDs. All while Jstew is getting his 1000 yards as well.
10 – Hurt his foot and missed it all.
They’ve both missed one full season apiece. Rashard is wildly inconsistent. DeAngelo is a playmaker. Rashard has had one huge play, against the Falcons. Other than that he is a workhorse that can’t even be a workhorse every week. He is not the playmaker DeAngelo is.
Why does Williams have such a great backup?
Because up until Steward was drafted DW had done nothing. With a better O-line. Sproles is a playmaker. Why don’t we pick him up? We don’t need a playmaking RB we need a workhorse which we have in Mendenhall. Do you see him running well with our 2008 O-line? Cause I don’t.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Before Steward was drafted, DW was a backup. He wasn’t the starter until 08. In spot play before 08 he had shown flashes of ability, 5.0 YPC in 2007 show that. In 08, his first year actually starting, he blew up the scoreboard.
Do you see Rashard running well behind our 08 line? I Didn’t, and neither did the rest of the world because he spent his season on the bench, with a fucked up shoulder. Memo actually ran decently behind that line that year, and I know you aren’t going to tell me now that Dwill is a worse runner than Memo, because Memo got yards behind a bad line. You don’t get to judge the entire O line when comparing backs, otherwise how can you have a comparison of any position at all? You’d have to bring in every position that is related with it. With the immense danger of Jake Delhomme throwing the ball, do you think Dwill got a huge boost with all those guys in the box? Whoever runs for the Steelers will ALWAYS have the advantage of Big Ben and his receiving Corps.
He has playmaking ability from a workhorse body. He averages over 4.5 YPC and is more durable than other homerun hitters like Charles and Johnson.
Why did they draft Stew then?
He hadn’t done anything before Stew got there, actually he never did anything till Jeff Otah got there. Otah solidifies the O-line and both of them have great success. Otah goes down for the season and both struggles.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
if anything that’s an argument as to why you need to draft blue chip o linemen more often than once a decade
Which would rather have?
top 10 finishes or playoff runs?
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
We have made an effort
they just hasn’t turned out to be what we thought they’d be.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
What hold?
You mean the paly when Hartwig gets blown is falling a has his hand of the DT’s shoulder? That was a bad call. And correct Mangold wouldn’t get the hold in the endzone. Bcause with out Holmes we aren’t in the SB.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
How can you make such opinionated statements as if they are facts? We aren’t in the SB with Mangold instead of Holmes? Wasn’t the worst thing about that team the offensive line? I’m guessing that adding a huge piece of that puzzle would have definitely made our chances of getting to the SB lower.
Yeah the worst thing is O-line
And yet we got there. To see Cedric Wilson or Nate Washington catching that pass to beat Batlimore at Baltimore? Do you see either of them returning the punt for a TD in the playoffs vs SD? Do you see either of them making the catch to win the SB that Holmes did? I don’t
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Got there on strength of Defense #1
Holmes is a great player but the O Line has a greater total impact over the course of the year. Now if you are talking one play – sure Holmes is a playmaker.
However, you don’t need a last second miracle catch if you can control the ball and run against the Cardinals mostly shitty defense. They were bottom third in the league IIRC.
"Franz" in NoCal
Not during the playoffs
http://www.nfl.com/teams/arizonacardinals/schedule?team=ARI&season=2008&seasonType=REG
No we did not get on the strength of the #1 D. We need Ben’s comeback ability too. And alot of those went to Holmes.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
by Steel in FL on Sep 30, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Holmes is a great player
I didn’t say that drafting him was a mistake. In fact, if he was still on the team they wouldn’t have focused on trying to replace him the last few years. If BB wasn’t already making off-season headlines, Holmes may have been fined or sat down but would still be on the team.
My point is that the Steelers have not utilized a 1st or 2nd round pick for O Line other than Pouncey in 6 drafts. Given that they lost a number of good OL in the past 3-5 years to free agency or injury, maybe they would be better off if they had selected 1 or 2 guys in that time frame.
"Franz" in NoCal
And my point was who would you have given up on?
A known your going to bring up Sweed (pick 53) so here are the next 3 O-line drafted after him
59 Indianapolis Colts Mike Pollak G Arizona State
65 St. Louis Rams John Greco T Toledo
83 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jeremy Zuttah G Rutgers
There is not much there either.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Your right
In ’06- Why in the hell did we get a pot smoking guy out of THE Ohio State. What… no he never won a Super Bowl for us… wait ..he did in ’08…well…
In ‘07- Should have got some of that talent in the 2nd round. WAIT! Didn’t LaMarr Woodley have a good year in ‘08 his first year starting and win us a game on Sunday Night against the Raven that got us the #2 seed. Well we didn’t need Timmons. Oh! Staley was the only decent player we could have got I’ll stick with the guy who led the team in tackles last year
In ’08- No need to get Rashard or Limas…Huh Duane Brown is the only player even worth note on that list and he is not that good well no wonder we went with Mendy who was 1000 yard rusher last year and was need since Parkers game drastically went down.
In’ ’09- How did we miss on the loaded talent in the second round? Oh.. no second round pick you say and Ziggy Hood is the reason this defensive line has some hope to continue to dominate in years to come well that makes sense.
In 2010 and 2011- We got Maurkice and no other O-linemen was attainable and we got Heyward who will be great and I like Gilbert. Okay well maybe they know what they are doing.
In hindsight I see only one problem and that is maybe trade down in ’09 but hindsight is 20/20 and Ziggy is turning into a solid starter. Maybe this organization knows what it is doing in the draft or maybe it was luck we went to 3 Superbowls in 6 years. The world may never know…
How about you tell us which of the Steelers picks you would switch out for which one of the other players. Thanks.
Timmons, Sweed, Worilds or even Hood
draft picks could have been used on an offensive lineman. I’m not saying all of them, I’m saying 1 or 2 of those picks may have created a better total team than what they have now.
Given that we have Timmons, he should be rushing the passer in my opinion from the OLB spot in a 3-4. They say he led the team in tackles but those are total tackles. How many impact plays has he made compared to Deebo, Woodley, Polamalu or others. He has a pretty good salary and for a number of years.
Woodley is going to need to move inside or go down to DE – he’s getting too big to play outside much longer.
"Franz" in NoCal
I’m not saying all of them, I’m saying 1 or 2 of those picks may have created a better total team than what they have now.
What I’m wondering is specifically which players do you wish the Steelers had taken instead of who they actually took? Giving you the gift of hindsight, which obviously the Steelers didn’t have.
How about...
in 2009 instead of Hood they could have taken Loadholt, Levitre, Volmer or Britton…. they have as many starts in two seasons as Essex does in six. Essex just isn’t very good.
In 2007 instead of Timmons they could have taken any of the O Linemen listed – take your pick. It would make a better unit than what they have now.
I won’t bother with the Sweed pick because that’s too easy – anyone would have been better given what transpired.
"Franz" in NoCal
So you would rather not have Hood and/or Timmons and have a couple of those linemen? Ok. I don’t agree with you about that, but at least now I know your preference. I’d much rather have Hood and Timmons.
By the way, not a single lineman you listed was available when Sweed was drafted. You’d have to show some lineman taken after him.
But yeah we know Sweed was a bust. Hindsight is a great thing.
Why the anger?
You seem incapable of discussion without implying that others have an inferior perspective or intellect.
I didn’t mention Sweed or the year he was drafted (2008) as something I would change or evaluate as a poor decision. They were trying to get a Plaxico-type receiver which they had been missing, which is understandable. The O Line situation was getting worse but not to the critical point as it is now.
"Franz" in NoCal
I’m not angry nor did I say your opinion is inferior. I just said I disagree with you and would rather have Timmons and Hood than any of the linemen that were available, even given the current o line situation.
It’s funny, I was really optimistic about the line coming into this year. J Scott came into camp noticeably more muscular and in shape, Pouncey getting even better in his second year, the return of Colon, and Kugler coaching them up a second year. Injuries just keep biting them in the ass.
I wasn't as hopeful
but with Colon coming back, you figured it would be about the same. I figured they would not re-sign either Flozell or Starks but not dump both of them. When they made no FA moves to fill the tackle position I was really surprised.
I have never thought much of Colon. Supposedly, the coaches stated during the lead up to the SB that he was their best O Lineman… thought that was just pumping sunshine up the guys ass since he was out and missing the game, never thought they believed it.
He and many guys shaped like him get hurt often. He never looks on-balance when he moves and ends up on his ass way too often. When guys that big fall over – bad things happen to them and those around them.
This group of guys just doesn’t look good to me, hope they prove me wrong.
"Franz" in NoCal
And why should he rush the passer?
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
by StoneColdSteel on Sep 28, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Timmons was drafted to play 3-4 ILB
Just becuase he was a OLB in a 4-3 in college doesn’t mean he should stay at OLB in the NFL. And if we don’t draft him and take one of these.
16 Green Bay Packers Justin Harrell DT Tennessee
17 Denver Broncos Jarvis Moss DE Florida
18 Cincinnati Bengals Leon Hall CB Michigan
19 Tennessee Titans Michael Griffin FS Texas
20 New York Giants Aaron Ross CB Texas
21 Jacksonville Jaguars Reggie Nelson FS Florida
22 Cleveland Browns Brady Quinn QB Notre Dame
23 Kansas City Chiefs Dwayne Bowe WR Louisiana State
24 New England Patriots Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
25 Carolina Panthers Jon Beason MLB Miami (Fla.)
26 Dallas Cowboys Anthony Spencer OLB Purdue
27 New Orleans Saints Robert Meachem WR Tennessee
28 San Francisco 49ers Joe Staley OT Central Michigan
29 Baltimore Ravens Ben Grubbs G Auburn
30 San Diego Chargers Craig Davis WR Louisiana State
31 Chicago Bears Greg Olsen TE Miami (Fla.)
32 Indianapolis Colts Anthony Gonzalez WR Ohio State
Which one of these’s guys are better than Timmons? Maybe Hall that’s it.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Point taken, but it depends....
on what that player was drafted for. Jon Beason is arguably one of the top 3, 4-3 MLB’s in the NFL. Timmons was drafted from a 4-3 but converted to a 3-4 player, its not the same argument. If Steelers ran a 4-3, Beason may have been better than Timmons or just the opposite could be true, but we will never know. Beason is the ONLY other player on there that is equal to Timmons. Hall is a good player, but Timmons is a better fit.
by BiggiePauls on Sep 30, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Beason may be better right now
But Timmons is more talented. If we wanted him to we could be a 3-4 OLB. Beason couldn’t do that.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
by Steel in FL on Sep 30, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d much rather have an o line men instread of mendy and any of the second round talent recently at runningback could perform as well, in my opinion.
Take your pick
26 Houston Texans Duane Brown T Virginia Tech
39 San Francisco 49ers Chilo Rachal G USC
59 Indianapolis Colts Mike Pollak G Arizona State
65 St. Louis Rams John Greco T Toledo
83 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jeremy Zuttah G Rutgers
96 Washington Redskins Chad Rinehart T Northern Iowa
99 Baltimore Ravens Oniel Cousins T Texas-El Paso
107 San Francisco 49ers Cody Wallace C Texas A&M
108 Denver Broncos Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green State
109 Philadelphia Eagles Mike McGlynn G Pittsburgh
110 Miami Dolphins Shawn Murphy G Utah State
Which of these fine players would you rather have? These are the 11 O-line drafted after our pick of Mendenhall. And while I’m at it
24 Tennessee Titans Chris Johnson RB East Carolina
44 Chicago Bears Matt Forte RB Tulane
There are the 2 RB drafted after Mendenhall and these:
55 Baltimore Ravens Ray Rice RB Rutgers
64 Detroit Lions Kevin Smith RB Central Florida
73 Kansas City Chiefs Jamaal Charles RB Texas
89 Houston Texans Steve Slaton RB West Virginia
122 Dallas Cowboys Tashard Choice RB Georgia Tech
Came after Sweed. I doubt any of them can do what Mendenhall does behind our O-line.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Duane Brown all day over Mendenhall. And you aren’t forced into using your second rounder THAT year on a RB just because you went OT in the first in. Gimme LeSean McCoy, Rice or Forte. All of them are comparable to Mendenhall’s level of talent and they didn’t cost such a steep first round pick. Mendenhall is a fine back, but I don’t think worth the draft price
Mcoy was drafted in 09
Do you want Mcoy or Wallace?
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
We didn't have 2nd that year and had 2 3rd instead.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Then
you wouldn’t be upset if they traded Mendenhall for an OT?
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I reckon you'd be bitching about how terribleq
more than half those OLmen you listed were if they were Steelers. A lot of them are the serviceable journeymen type that we already have. Sure there’s some truly great players in there too but as has been pointed out which one of the players we did draft are you giving up to have them?
There is far too much under-rating of average pros on our own team and far too much over-rating of average pros on other teams.
William Gay, who you mention as being poor in your article is a classic example. The job that he does best, and the job he would only do in an ideal world, slot defensive back, there are actually very very few in the league better at it than William Gay. He misses few tackles (yes he got run over by Peterson, get over it, it was 1 tackle) and he gives up very few yards after the catch. That’s his job. Give up the cushion but don’t give up anything after the catch and stop first downs. There is one guy who is better at it than Gay, Joselio Hanson. Guess what? Eagles fans hated him, he sucked, he never makes plays, he’s always picked on by opposing QBs blah blah.
Are you saying the current O Line is Good?
Are you saying it is not a problem, that nothing should change?
If William Gay is such a good DB, why isn’t he on the field every down? William Gay is a better blitzing DB than anything else. His coverage skills are lacking.
"Franz" in NoCal
wow did you fail to read
I’m not saying our OL is not a problem. Just that it’s not as bad as you make it out to be. It’s an average group on the whole, I’m just saying a lot of those other guys you mentioned are barely any better if they’re better at all than guys we have. You’ll probably find if you go check out messageboards of other teams that there’s “fans” just like you on all of them trashing their own Offensive Lines, and yes some of the players you mention in your post too, and pointing to the fact that they should have drafted Maurkice Pouncey instead. Some of those guys also play in a different scheme to us, they wouldn’t fit with us. Remember we’re slammed with injuries on the OL right now too and that is a huge deal. Continuity and chemistry are massive factors of OL play and we haven’t been able to get it the last 2 or 3 years. We’ve also just played games the last 3 weeks against 2 of the best pass rushes int he league, Baltimore and Indy.
And Gay isn’t on the field every down because he’s not one of the starting 2 CBs. But you’re just showing your ignorance for the game there Franz. Package defensive backs play a hugely important role but they rarely start games. They may still play up to 75% of the snaps covering a zone in the middle of the field in multiple WR sets, and that’s what Gay is good at. Actually very good at. You just don’t understand his assignments. I’ll grant you he looks weak when forced into coverage on a starting WR out wide, it’s not his strength and we shouldn’t, in an ideal world, ever be asking him to do it.
But hey, by your logic Antonio Brown must suck because he doesn’t start.
by KiwiSteelerFan on Sep 29, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Our best lines were not high draft choices..
webster, the best C of all time was a 4th or 5th round pick..Kolb, late round, Larry brown, was a TE, mullins, Davis all late round picks..you don’t nec need 1st round picks on the O-line to have a good one…YOU NEED TALENT, which clearly, the FO dropped the ball on! My problem is this, TOO much money on LBs…In the past, when a player approached 30, he was gone with us..I always didn’t like that, but there was something to be said about it. Next year, Smith, Farrior, Ward should be let go for 2 reasons, $$$$!! We could sign a RG and a corner…but still draft for the future..Even Deebo, who will be 34, will save lots of $$$..we have the replacements..so go for it!
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
it might not be an option
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Sep 28, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly!!!
He might not be able to come back! Plus, his salary is high..Chuck Noll kept veterans around way too long and cause the team to age fast..
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
by nycsteelerfan on Sep 28, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
One is 3 years older than the other.
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter
by John Stephens on Sep 29, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is...
You get rid of Harrison, is Worilds ready to play? Same thing with Stevenson Sylvester. Both great looking kids, If you throw them in to early and they don’t play well, you’ll be cursing the FO for getting rid of the old guys when the young guys can’t play yet.
by HardPunkKore on Sep 28, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Sly needs more snaps
It’s the only way we’ll know if he’s ready. Why they are giving his snaps to Foote (who we know isn’t the future) is a complaint I have. I wouldn’t get rid of Harrison, but Farrior, A. Smith, and Foote are all fair game in my book. Smith is a slam dunk – IMO he and Foote should have been cut this year instead of cutting the younger players.
If we are mathmatically eliminated
then I expect to see the young guys getting a lot of snaps.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
We got rid of Lloyd..
Gildon came in…then gildon left.porter came in, then Harrison..
A man is innocent untill proven guilty...Even if it's Ben Roethlisberger!
'I rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me'..General George Patton
" I don't care if he has two horns and a tail, as long as he is anti-communist"..General Douglas MacArthur..
"The way to end our dependence on foreign oil is to keep our tires properly inflated"....B. Hussein Obama
"Government is not the solution to our problems, it is the cause of them" Ronald Wilson Reagan..40th President of the United States
by nycsteelerfan on Sep 28, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't compare the 70s team to now
With free agency and the salary cap, teams can not keep players like they could back then. That’s why dynasty teams like the Steelers of the 70s, Niners of the 80s and Cowboys of the early 90s will be almost impossible to build now.
Note that the Steelers were a better scouting organization than most of their peers. Many of their best players in the 70s came from smaller schools and particularly traditionally black colleges. Bill Nunn put the Steelers in touch with those schools directly and this gave them quite an advantage for awhile.
Linebackers are not as valuable as they once were, simply because their skill set is a run stopper with more athletic ability than most defensive linemen. They are not quick/fast enough to cover receivers who they can not touch more than 5 yards downfield. They also are having a harder time putting pressure on the quarterback because they are in coverage more often. When they do rush, they have to overcome the legallized holding that has been allowed. That is easier to overcome if the offensive line is not real good like in the case of the Steelers.
"Franz" in NoCal
Agreed on the LB comment...
Although I have always respected the Steelers for their unequaled drafting and development of linebackers, in a league quickly changing to a pass first and often mentality, CB’s and Safeties are becoming more important. I realize a solid pass rush helps negate the throwing game, but when teams like the Packers and Patriots often employ 5 wide, the quick throws negate the pass rush. Watching Woodley so far this year, he’s not quick enough to get to the QB when the release is quick. That’s why the money spent on Ike seems to be smarter money (so far, and i know its early) than the money spent on Woodley and Timmons. We have alot of money and draft picks invested in LB’s…we need to invest in CB’s (and the O-Line) as well. They seem neglected,
Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that.
good resource
http://www.drafttek.com/SophRetroR1.ASP
This is the DraftTek Sophomore review for the 2009 draft.
Most people that year were hoping to land Alex Mack or Eric Woods at Center. Both were gone by our pick. The Team reportedly was looking at Unger but couldn’t get a good deal to move back a little. At this time I was hoping to pick up Eben Britton or Will Beatty.
Britton has been solid, Beatty had a bigger learning curve but isn’t a bust. Both are probably better than Trai Essex. If you don’t draft Ziggy, you probably have Nick Eason as the bckup to Aaron Smith. Better situation overall IMO.
At DE at that time you had 2 solid starters and 2 good backups. Admittedly Smith and Kirshke were old so replacement was coming at some point. On the OL Starks was franchised and we needed a replacement. Having not drafted one we followed up by giving Starks a 4 year $26M contract that we’re still on the hook for $2M in cap room from. It was a great year for tackles and we passed.
In 2010 I was hoping for Bulaga and then to pick up Walton from Baylor later on.
No disprespect to Ziggy or Maurkice but there were viable options that were not picked up. When the DL or LB corps is hurting we draft like we mean it, taking multiple early round picks on positions and drafting guys who are going to be backups through their first three years. You simply can’t demonstrate the same commitment to the OL from SB XL to the 2010 draft.
Hartings – Gone in 2006, FA disasters then Hartwig until 2010
Faneca – Gone after 2007 – Replaced by average Kemo, who then got way overpaid because we have no depth.
Simmons – Lost in 2008 – Still not replaced for all intents and purposes
Marvel Smith – Gone after 2007 – Replaced by FA scrub Scott and maybe by Gilbert in 2011.
When the O-line was hurting and a prospect was worth the pick we drafted O-line
in Pouncey. When your continually drafting in the high 20’s you don’t have a chance to get good tackles.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Just Venting....
It is no secret the Steeler’s draft too many LB’s, with so little to show for it. Don’t get me wrong, Timmons and Woodley were spot on what we needed at the time.They are exceptions to this drafting process because they have the speed to cover. Outside of that, where are the contributions from those other LB’s? Why use SO many picks on a position whose success relies mostly from scheme? Debo, for example was an UNDRAFTED free agent, and still thrives. Typically when we cut or choose not to resign linebackers, they have very limited success in other defenses. Why? Because Dick’s defense MAKES LB superstars, not the other way around. But enough about that. The O-line has been neglected for years, and it will take that long again to be dominant. Pouncey and Gilbert are good starts, but I think somewhere mistakes were made. THE most singular to this day is letting Kraig Urbik go. A 3rd round choice out of Wisconsin who was quite a decorated NCAA Big 10 Guard prospect. He now starts for Buffalo, who just happens to be chuckin’ the heck out of the ball, and running all over teams. He has been a big part of a rejuvinated O-line in Buffalo this year, and I think we really missed on that. Pouncey, Gilbert and Urbik would make for a nice young and talented O-line, to start building around. We missed on Tony Hills, but you will have that. Imagine if he would have came through. With Urbik and Hills, we are talking about a WHOLE NEW O-LINE that could have been. And I still feel that Hills should have been our starting RG. He was in top shape (13% Body fat), and at 6’6" and 330lbs, he had the size and strength over Legursky and was winning that job in pre-season. We seem to be giving up too early on our line prospects and I guess that falls on Kugler, Colbert and Tomlin.
Good points
My post was meant to illicit discussion about this offensive line and those of the last few years. They just aren’t very good right now. Why? There are limited dollars to spend and limited draft picks to use each year. Who you select and sign to long term deals has a big impact on things well beyond the current week or season. I think the Steelers have made some mistakes in the draft and FA/UFA signings. Whether you run or pass, the offensive line is a critical component that can not be ignored. You can choose to do one or the other but you can’t choose to ignore these positions.
I believe that the Steelers offense and defense have both overcome shortfalls in the O line and defensive secondary precisely because the other groups (LB, DL, RB, QB, WR) have been so good in the last 5-6 years. The new NFL is making that harder all the time – LBs are not as dominant as they once were.
Ray Lewis is one of the last guys who the average fan knows right away. Lambert, Butkus, Nitchke and others were known for defending the run first. Lawrence Taylor, Kevin Greene, Derrick Thomas were known for rushing the QB from the edge. Those edge rushers are being controlled by multiple receiver formations and the quick passing game – particularly from shotgun.
Besides quarterback, who gets all the media coverage – wide receivers and the cover corners who try and stop them.
Good pass protection has become more important simply because teams want to throw the ball – the rules encourage it.
"Franz" in NoCal
I still take issue with you using the term “ignore”. The Steelers didn’t ignore the offensive line. Some of the guys they picked up didn’t turn into the players they hoped or expected, some were lost earlier in their career than was expected, and in once specific instance they may have given up a little too early on one player.
You are taking an overly simplistic view of this thing. The Steelers didn’t invest enough first or second round picks on their offensive line, so therefore they ignored it. That is too black and white of a viewpoint applied to decision making that has so many shades of gray.
OK, they didn't ignore the O Line
They failed to make it a priority. They used more draft picks on other areas like LB than they did on O Line. You have to have 5 offensive linemen, hopefully good ones. This is the most fundamental unit on the offensive team and the whole team for that matter. It affects everything else. Right now, that effect is not real positive.
Shades of grey it may be in your mind but the decisions they made can be defined and evaluated.
"Franz" in NoCal
You still haven’t told me which player the Steelers drafted that you wish they hadn’t for another offensive lineman (still available at the time they drafted obviously) you wished they had drafted.
Porter led the league in sacks with the 2nd year away from Lebeau with 17.5
A good 7 more than he ever had with us. We let him go because he wanted more money than he was worth
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Notice that I said a "Limited Success"
That means not all of our star players went on to be stars on other teams. If only 1 LB out of all the LB’s that we have released from Dick’s defense had a tremendous impact on other teams, then my statement holds water.
by BiggiePauls on Sep 29, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Kevin Greene?
Most of time we let them go because A. They are old(Porter) B.They aren’t that good and someone better is behind them(Clark)or C. They want more money than they are worth(Greene).
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Are you aware that every team in the NFL has holes?
The Steelers dont neglect certain positions, that just sounds foolish. They saw better value in the 1st round at certain positions and thought they fix their o-line with latter picks.
The Titans have an awesome offensive line and haven’t had to spend a 1st round pick on any of their guys. OTOH, they are terrible at QB, very average at LB, and their secondary is overrated. Would you like to be them for the sake of having a great o-line?
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
Its been overrated for some time now
Finnegan is a walking personal foul and McCourty is only ok. I like their safeties, but they have their days when they are dead average to really bad.
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
by StoneColdSteel on Sep 28, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
They also beat the Ravens...
while we got our asses kicked.
It’s only one game but it was a very good win for them. Our two wins were against two of the worst teams in the league. Our loss was a bad one.
"Franz" in NoCal
And that proves they are a good team?
Then the Bills are better than the Patriots.
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
by StoneColdSteel on Sep 28, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If you really believe the Bills are a better team
Then there is no point to this convo.
But I guess you’re right, our FO has purposely neglected the o-line because they just dont give a crap about winning football games.
Wait…
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
by StoneColdSteel on Sep 28, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bills were better that day and may be a better team this year
Who said the FO purposely neglected anything? My post illustrates the picks which were made in the draft versus who was available for the offensive line.
Evaluating or being critical of past decisions is how all organizations improve. My opinion is just that – my opinion of the current team and what may have been done differently to form a better total team.
Would you have done anything different in the draft or free agent market the past 5 years?
"Franz" in NoCal
The Steeler game was the raven's superbowl
they won it and there was a let down. We’ll see them again…
by Steely McSmash on Sep 29, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Just venting II
The Titans are actually having running issues at the moment because they can’t run block. Look at Johnson and Ringer. They average average less than 3 yds per carry this year.
The reason I used “ignore” is because that there are options beyond the draft. It also is beyond me how the Steelers waited so long to address protecting a $100 million dollar QB! The coaches and FO know we have no line depth. Yet instead of addressing the issue through Free Agency, they rolled the dice with what they had, and even cut young depth (Hills/Urbik). They needed to pick up a player like McKinney, a former Pro Bowl Tackle, who was cut because he was “out of shape”. Not only did we not address a glaring need to fix OUR line, we let him slip to our closest contenders roster. THAT IS A DOUBLE SCREW UP in my books. Look….I understand that things don’t go as planned and that they may have missed on drafting a few guys. But when you miss, you have to adjust. McKinney was an adjustment piece. If we LOSE (Season ending) Ben to a/multiple injuries, thats when the money spent on non linemen is wasted. Because it won’t matter how deep we are at LB, DL, QB, WR. It won’t matter because it becomes a lost season. The league is beyond the 2000 Ravens. You can’t get by on that alone anymore. There will be no more Trent Dilfer’s winning titles. Defence helps win Championships. Big Ben delivers Rings. It is a shame when there is something you can take advantage of and you don’t do it. McKinney is a glaring example of something we ignored this year.
So you want to cripple the future by adding Mckinney?
With Mckinney money that could go to a young star is tied up in a older vet who more than likely will be done in 1-2 years. Instead of giving Gilbert valuable experience he would be riding the pine behind Mckinney and Scott and would have had to cut someone to make room.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
You don't cripple the future....
The Steelers should bring in a FORMER PRO BOWL LT to TEACH Gilbert something. The FO has lost the skill of knowing when to cut players. I love him to death, and he will FOREVER be one of the ALL TIME STEELER GREATS, but Aaron Smith should be released. There is your McKinney money. That is the money to bring in a former pro bowler to teach your future LT how the game works. That is money that pays for itself LONG TERM. So what if it is for only 1-2 years? Thats 1-2 years less he has to learn behind “False Startin’ Willie Colon”, and Johnathan Scott. That is how you make your team better. Gilbert gets 1-2 years of INVALUABLE education on “how to be a Pro Bowl LT in the NFL.” Now Gilbert gets an INVALUABLE lesson on “how to lose a job, if I let Ben’s knee explode.” Lets not forget that we have no O-line depth, yet the coaching staff cut Hills and Urbik within the last year. There is nothing wrong with having Depth on your team.
We can't release Smith yet because of lack of depth at DE
Without Smith we’d be forced to start Hayward who can’t have the playbook down yet, severly limiting the playbook. You don’t do that for a guy who will likely only be there 1 year.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Not committed?
Looks to me like their defensive line has been dominant for some time, and they built it by drafting the Big Snack in the first, Ziggy and Heyward in the first. Can’t confuse their offensive line’s problems with their defensive line’s dominance.
Hampton was drafted 10 years ago
The real emphasis of my comment is that the LB position has gotten tremendous attention and investment. The defensive line is not expected to make the splash plays, their linebackers are. That has been OK since they play a 2 gap, 3-4 defense.
The Steelers are not getting the sacks and turnovers because their DB group is not that great and the front 3 + 1 blitzer are not getting to the QB.
"Franz" in NoCal
Actually we aren't getting sacks because of the lack of 3rd and long we have forced people into
In the past we have forced the opponent int o 3rd and longs due to stopping the run for minimal gain and haven’t been able to do that.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
The problem as I see it.....
While the FO is really good at hitting in the 1st round, the magic that was once there in the later rounds has gone. Before we would find a Hines Ward, a Joey Porter, a Clark Haggans later in the draft, now we do not. Now, to replace those stars, we have to use 1st round picks. Instead of finding diamond in the ruff the STeelers are forcing themsleves to rebuild with players from round 1 and 2 and making due with whatever else sticks. Now, instead of getting an OL every year high in the draft (Bill Cowher), we hardly draft them at all. The product is clearly visible with that disgrace of a line that they have to throw out there. It is a joke, and now with injuries, it is laughable!
Big Ben is the franchise, without Big Ben this team is not a playoff team. Keeping him up in today’s NFL should have been the number 1 priority. With him you have a chance in every game, but the rate we are going this year, he will be dead by the time the season is over.
Sanders and Brown were late picks
Harrison was a FA. The big difference is the amount of 3-4 teams now compared to then. 14 out of 32 teams now run a 3-4. There isn’t an abundance of 3-4 type players out there. So inorder to guarantee the future we’ve had to spend some higher picks.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Thank you! That is my point exactly....
When you miss in the draft, you HAVE to address needs through FA. I don’t care if it is “NOT THE STEELER WAY” to bring in high profile FA’s to fix issues. This isn’t your daddy’s league anymore….there are not too many diamonds in the rough left out there. We have things like the BIG 10 and BIG 12 Networks, NFL Network, ESPN 1-578 and every other sports channel out there. I can scout from my living room (figuratively). The point is, you can’t count on finding that “rare” 6th round pick that someone looked over anymore. Your IMMEDIATE NEEDS ARE DRAFTED IN ROUNDS 1-3. Period. IF you get lucky and land a star after that, then awesome. It is becoming more evident that teams that used to “Draft so well” are hurting now because it is harder to find the overlooked guy in the Modern NFL. If you need an OT then trade up for one. We traded up for a WR, why not a OT or OG? Would it really have killed us to pass on Jason Worilds, a guy that has taken two years to develop (ongoing) over a OL that we need desperately and could plug in instantly? It is a shame that Big Ben is going to lose a knee over the fact that we can’t address our OL needs, in any way, shape or form.
FA is a way to ruin your teams chances
What has NE since 07? NYG since 2009? Phily this year? Nothing. Except for NE’s 07 run, zero playoff success. Major FA destroys a team for some reason.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
No.
FA is not a rebuilding tool. FA can however be used as a quick fix. Look at what we did with Flozell Adams last year! I’m sorry, but no Super Bowl appearance for us if we don’t have him. The point I made earlier is that we cut some young guys before we should have, and had an opportunity to make a nice addition in McKinney. Ask James Harrison how well he played against him….James has nothing to show for the Baltimore game.
by BiggiePauls on Sep 30, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats hurting the future.
To win now you’ll take an old Vet over the young potential stars that are still developing. Like the Jets and Vikings with Favre. We already complain about missing out on to many late picks, then we want to dump some of the few showing potential, for a guy who will only be around 2 season at most. Flozell is a different case. Colon got IRe’d in camp opening a spot for Flo. That wasn’t the case this year. This year they are just awful.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
by Steel in FL on Sep 30, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
LT
Anytime you have an opportunity to improve a weakness on a team, you make that move. Especially if you have to lose a 7th round guy, for a former Pro-Bowler. Bryant McKinney is not a player we would have had to “sell the farm” for. He was attainable, and MORE than serviceable, and you could have cut Bryant McFadden for what he has done this season, and we ABSOLUTELY would not miss him. Instead what happened is we cut our 2 young linemen we drafted, brought in nothing for help, and our $100 MILLION DOLLAR QB is now in a walking boot and crutches. There are PLENTY of ways to put a guy on your roster, to make improvements without hurting your team.
McKinney
It’s funny how good he looks now but there were not that many people clamouring for him before the Steelers/Ravens game. A tackle with the reputation of being fat, out of shape and having a questionable work ethic before that game has suddenly become the saviour we missed out on signing. Unless he signed for league minimum, we probably couldn’t have afforded him.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I wanted him the second he was cut.
You honestly think he wasn’t going to be able to make game weight? After the type of season Bryant McFadden had last year, you can’t cut him and give the money to a guy who can teach your 2nd rnd pick? A FORMER PRO BOWLER who was out of shape (LONG off season) you wouldn’t take a chance on, but you will risk losing a 100 million dollar QB to season ending injuries? What kind of logic does that make? Tomlin has a problem with people who are “a little large” and he needs to get over that. There is nothing wrong with being a 6’5" 380lb lineman in the NFL. They are supposed to be hard to get around. When Jonathan Scott is your starting LT, even if McKinney didn’t make starting, it would be a HELL of a depth move. It is something that you don’t overlook or ignore and they should have at least brought him in for a workout.
obviously you are a better judge of talent than Colbert or Tomlin
Perhaps you should send the Steelers your resume.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps I should.
Then the one guy we have to protect to have a shot at winning anything (Big Ben), and makes $100 million dollars (Big Ben), and has delivered 2 Super Bowl Rings (Big Ben) would probably be better protected than he is now. If you don’t feel it is important to protect #7 with good O-line draft picks or available FA, you look at the Steelers history, count the Championships and the QB’s and do the math. Bradshaw has four if that helps. These are not championship teams without Ben. I would prefer not to see him sacked 52 times this year (he is on pace for that), and that is if he makes it through the whole season. Its not rocket science, its bringing in as many options as possible to see if you can address a need. And we have a need. A need to protect Ben. A need to carry on our Championship ways.
I agree the O-line needs to get better
and FO has bitten the bullet and signed Max Starks. I am happy to hear that he ahs he weight back down.
As I mention elsewhere, I apologize for being overly snarky yesterday. The is something about spending 5 hours at the doctor’s office (spread out over 7 hours) with a kid who is in pain that gets to me (Not to worry now, all is well. He has badly bruised ribs and one is probably cracked though it doesn’t show up on the x-ray).
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 5, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Its all good...
I will be the first to admit that I love to argue, and HATE to lose arguments. So I too apologize, I just get mad when I see such wasted talent on the offense because we can’t give Ben time to get the ball to our elite WR’s or open lanes for a legit top 10 RB. And most of all, I hate the fact that our QB gets murdered week after week after week…….Glad to see Max back, hopefully he can still make some blocks. Its a step in the right direction, but obviously more work is to be had.
The problem with the criticism of passing on offensive lineman in the 1st Round
The post basically boils down to a criticism of the front office for passing on various offensive lineman in the 1st round, not the 2nd, since all of the lineman listed as being “available” would have required a first round pick except Ryan Kalil, Vladimir Ducasse and Charlie Brown.
Kalil is smaller and less athletic than Pouncey, and would be a stain left on the field by nose tackles in the AFC North. He is a decent player on a terrible team (Panthers). No way is he an upgrade over Pouncey. (And keep in mind, if the Steelers take Kalil, then they don’t take Pouncey in 2010 with the first rounder.)
Ducasse has been awful for the Jets. Charlie Brown whiffed on the football yet again when Lucy pulled it away.
So are we to take the position that the problem lies with the Steelers first round choices? That seems completely inconsistent with the generally accepted notion that the Steelers have “hit” on almost all of their recent 1st round picks.
Players like Holmes, Timmons, Mendenhall, Hood, Pouncey and now Heyward are very talented. All but Hood and the rookie Heyward are starters, where Hood plays a lot and basically took over LDE for Smith on the way to the Super Bowl in 2010.
The “problem,” as others have noted, is that the Steelers are drafting so low most years. They wanted Darrell Revis in 2007 (great call, BTW), and wound up taking one of the best and most athletic LB’ers on the team in Timmons.
If Joe Thomas were on the board, trust me, the Steelers take him. But Tony Ugoh is hot garbage, riding the bench for the Lions and reportedly considering retirement at the ripe age of 27. Joe Staley was not worth the No. 15 pick. Not close.
You want a top-grade LT? Finish 3-13 and get the number 3 or 4 pick in the draft.
UN-LIKE
It doesn’t take a FIRST RND PICK only to land a good O-lineman. Typically you have to spend 1, 2, or 3 round pick to get solid players. Im not asking for the second coming of Alan Faneca (a former #1 pick by the way). I want a guy that can block his man and not get the QB killed. Its really not that hard to take one of those 3 picks each year and groom them.
by BiggiePauls on Sep 30, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Apparently it is
49ers want to get rid of Staley, Britton can’t start for a lousy Jags team, do your own reasearch and make a poast out of it. Based on where we drafted, would the next O-line picked help us more than who we got.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
by Steel in FL on Sep 30, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't need research.....
I don’t know what game you watched, but I watched the Steelers game yesterday, and INSTEAD of Mendenhall, we could have taken Duane Brown, the Texans OT…..I can’t speak on your behalf, but he seemed to be able to run block and pass block just fine. As a matter of fact I think he gave up 0 sacks and had a running back run for 140+. But just for fun, my research shows that had we taken Brown in the first instead of Mendenhall, Ray Rice was an option on the board for us in the 2nd round. But I am so glad we took Limas Sweed instead. Sometimes research is over-hyped, and just good ol’ observation will reveal the truths.
You mean the one who play a extremely different style?
Jokes aside, I completely agree. In fact, recall during the chat with the Texans folks over here at BTSC, that it was mentioned that Duane Brown is, in fact, a prototypical zone-blocking-scheme LT. That means his performance to date could not be easily translated into our offense. Factors such as these also would need to be accounted for.
“It’s football the way it’s meant to be played. That’s who Pittsburgh is, and that’s who Pittsburgh has always been.”
— so says Rex Ryan.
by sctx109 on Oct 2, 2011 7:08 AM EDT reply actions
As for the game I saw a game lost on a blocked FG.
.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
Huh?
As for the game I saw a game lost on a blocked FG
The blocked FG had no effect on the game – recall that the block in the back penalty nullified the play and the half was over.
The game was lost for 2 big reasons:
The offense’s inability to protect BB
The defense’s inability to stop the run
"Franz" in NoCal
The defence got it's act together in the end
The o-line didn’t and won’t till it has some time to play together. Even mediocre players will perform better if they have a chance to gel.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
What game are you kids watching?!?!?!?!
A defense that got its act together? You mean the one where the defense had a chance to make a stop, but decided to give up a 40+ yard RUSHING TD that decided the game? Come on….they were thoroughly beat in every facet on the game.
Lost on a blocked FG? Even if we made that FG, we still would have lost by 3. AND fortunately for us Manning was idiot enough to block in the back, that took 7pts off the board, otherwise it would have been 24-10. Thats not counting the other TD our D let up that was called back on a penalty, that would have made it 31-10……
It's been a long time since I was a kid
and in the second half, other than two plays, the Steelers D did good job This has nothing to do with the field goal or anything else you were just blathering about.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 4, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, I hope you are not a lawyer....
because you would know that Steel in FL made the comment that “as for the game I saw a game lost on a blocked FG”…..the one you replied to and added that “the D got its act together in the end”.
I hate to keep arguing like this, but really…..I don’t blather. As a matter of fact I know the points I make are valid and smart, as well as being based on facts. It doesn’t matter if it were only two plays. Those plays cost us a game. PERIOD. How many times in the last 15 years can you say the D flat out lost a game? How many times has the D allowed 2-100 yard rushers within the first 4 games of the season? They do NOT have their act together at all.
I am not a lawyer
And I apologize for being snarky. It was a rough day yesterday but that is no reason to take out on people on the internet.
"Canada is a great country, one of the hopes of the world. We can be a better one – a country of greater equality, justice, and opportunity." Jack Layton (R.I.P.)
"My city's still breathing (but barely it's true) through buildings gone missing like teeth. The sidewalks are watching me think about you, all sparkled with broken glass. I'm back with scars to show. Back with the streets I know. They never take me anywhere but here. " John K Samson (Left and Leaving)
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Oct 5, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Not true
The second round is where the Steelers could have signed 1 or 2 decent O Linemen in the past 5 years. Trading up or down could have helped to add at least one well thought of OL to hedge against a disaster. In addition, they could have released a defensive player making moderate money to sign or re-sign an O Lineman. Something needed to be done but wasn’t.
The results speak for themselves.
Pouncey was a good pick then and has turned out to be even better than expected this early. That said, a good center is not an offensive line. A center is usually helped by the guards if a nasty NT is placed over him. The inverse has been the case often for the Steelers – teams are covering Legursky with their biggest NT/DT player even if they are a 3-4 team. They are exploiting the weakest link in the chain as they should – that’s tactical football.
The problem for the Steelers is that they have at least 2 weak links on the field at all times. They don’t have the ability to cover up those weaknesses and they will continue to be exploited.
"Franz" in NoCal
Do you want a Good D or a good O-line?
Can’t have both and a franchise QB.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
What good is the franchise QB if he is sitting on his ass?
Ben is a very good QB and he has some good weapons. None of these guys can do their thing if the O Line is not at least average. The O Line is terrible right now and that affects everything else – including the defense.
You are comparing All 11 on defense to the 5 OL as an either/or choice. You need to emphasize which units are going to be most important depending on your philosophy and style of play. It’s true you can’t have it all but without a decent OL group, your odds have decreased dramatically. The 2008 O Line was criticised heavily – how do they compare to this group? Who wouldn’t want them now?
I think the defense can give up a little personnel- wise to improve the O Line. As a defensive coordinator, it’s great to have all those athletic LBs and the option to blitz and scheme every which way. But the offensive line is the most important unit on the team at all levels of football. The O Line is not involved in situational substitution for a good reason – a consistent and coordinated unit is always necessary. In the NFL, the DBs are a close second.
"Franz" in NoCal
I thought it was Defense that wins Championships?
And out of the past 4 SB champs, 3 were top 2 in sacks. The Steelers are a predominantly a defensive team and thus the D gets the most attention. Comparing our 08 line to now Pouncey is better, Foster/ Legs is better, Kemo bout the same, Gilbert worse but with should improve, Scott a lot worse. All in all bout equal imo with the ability to get better.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
by Steel in FL on Sep 30, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post and thoughts Franz
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Sep 29, 2011 11:06 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks - you an expat or a real life Kiwi?
Spent a little time in Auckland and Christchurch many years ago.
"Franz" in NoCal
Born and raised Kiwi
Took to the Steelers because Black and Gold happens to be my hometown colors over here.
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Sep 30, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
Well Ive stuck with them, and dont plan on going anywhere
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Oct 3, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
How we got here...
..…1976, a contented front office, an established coaching staff, and a S.B. Victory in the pocket. A defense that would/will never be equalled and a better than average offense. "Lets go for “flash”, lets go for “pizzazz”…lets pick Thigpen and Foster……(I skipped a few, Hodge was a beast IMO)…that’s how we got here. But just as yesterday proved they will right the ship, hopefully it won’t take a decade.
"If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler."
-- Jack Lambert --
I’m sorry, I’m really confused. We have our situation with the o line right now because of what happened in 1976? And what do Yancey Thigpen and Barry Foster have to do with it?
Well, do you see them contributing on the line next week against the Texans? If not, then there is your answer.
Word
"If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler."
-- Jack Lambert --
by Steeleraero on Sep 30, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
People aren't attributing
much of the steeler woes to the lockout as they should.
The injuries to the o line points directly to working too hard too fast, overreacting to plays and players(overcompensation), and the lack of long term conditioning (I think it’s abominable that NFL players would report to camp overweight or out of conditioning). Same goes for the d-line, and the fact that A.Smith hasn’t seen action in over a year.
All of those things would have been corrected in OTA’s and the rest of the offseason….I personally think the FO expected GIlbert to be more up to speed and on the same page as colon and Kemo – with some time to gel. I never liked scott, nor foster, and thought they would re-sign adams and starks, but I don’t think it would have really made a huge difference. Sure, Flozell would have been nice, but football and it’s operations have a ton of other variable to take into account.
I think the shortened off season has everything to do with their failures. As far as Scott in the Colt’s game : I’ve never really seen Ben R constantly looking over his shoulder. He knew Scott was injured, but that doesn’t forgive either one of them for some dumb ass mistakes. Scott looked like he was wearing concrete shoes.
Funny, people complain about the steelers being too old, yet over the last four or five games the young steelers have contributed as much to the losses as the old guys.
Everyone else was locked out too
The Niners have an entirely new coaching staff. If anyone was affected it’s them more than others. The Steelers have nearly all of their players back with a consistent coaching staff. They shouldn’t be affected as much as most teams.
Granted, they have a new combo up front on the O Line but only one of those starters is new to the club. They may get better but then again, so will everyone else as the season rolls on.
"Franz" in NoCal
My thoughtage on shifting towards the pass
I think the shift is directly related to Ben.
Could it be because they knew Ben was special? That he had more potential than just a game manager? Would it not make sense to equip him with weapons?
While they’ve clearly looked to the passing game more since Ben’s arrival, I argue that’s just a natural reaction to the players abilities.
When we had a great RB (Bettis) we had a great FB (Krieder), and a very solid TE in Mark Bruener. Plus we had a hell of a line. We designed the offense around its best player.
Now we have a QB, we’ve decided to build talent around that. In other words wide receivers, and we have arguably the best group in the league. Our draft picks are going to give us a front 7 of mostly young players within a year or two.
Really, the O-line just went down fast. Yes we didn’t plan for it, but we instead provided our QB with a great WR corps, one of the best TEs, a decent set of RBs, a soon to be young front 7 on defense, and a secondary that can handle about 80% of the league.
Do I wish they would improve the O-line? Of course. But would you trade an O-line for Woodley, Timmons, Hood, and Heyward? Those guys will be your defense for the next 7 years at least.
I guess by your logic, you’d rather win in shootouts. I prefer winning by defense.
Yes and No
The shift is in all likelihood because of BB. That I agree with. But w/o a good O Line, the talents of the skill position guys is left unfulfilled. A great offensive line makes the skill guys better but that is not true the other way around.
Regardless of the QB’s abilities, the offensive line is equally important. If you want to focus on the run, then you acquire good run blockers. If pass happy, guys who can pass block better than anything else.
Any good defense gets worn out if they are on the field too long. Defense is reactive and requires more energy to play over time. I’m all for defense but without a good offensive line, your defense becomes exposed.
"Franz" in NoCal
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