A "Gun to Head" Question: LeBeau for maybe only 1 more year, or Butler for many?
by PaVaSteeler on Jan 29, 2012 10:48 PM EST
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PrintThis is the “Gun to head” Question: For the best interests of the Steeler organization for the next five years, if you can keep only one of the two men, who would you take, and why?
It is being reported in BTSC and elswhere that Steeler LInebacker coach Keith Butler will become the new Defensive Coordinator for the Indianapolis Colts. In fact, the link on his name will lead you to his wikipedia page, which already lists him as the Colts DC
Both Dick LeBeau and Butler are both so well known to Steeler Nation that any summary of their respective careers would be redundant, and specific information can be found in the links provided. Therefore, here is the issue:
…on one hand, you have one of the most revered coaches in football, a Hall of Famer who both played the game, and created a standard of defensive play as a coach, who wants to be back for “another year”…
...and on the other, you have a man who is recognized by his team as the DC in waiting (and has been waiting several years), and by the rest of the league as a leading linebacker coach and developer, a huge defensive talent, and a "ready now" Defensive Coordinator prospect, who would fill the position for a long time to come.
The second man works under the first, and thus would be expected to continue many of the same schemes, plays, and decisions that made the Steelers defense league leading under the first man, but the second man could also be expected to add his own wrinkles, taking an already high performing defense possibly to another level.
With the search for a new Offensive Coordinator, and the player personnel decisions the Steelers must make this off-season, many that effect long tenured and much revered players, how much sentimentality can Kevin Colbert, the Rooneys, Tomlin and the Steeler organization afford?
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players have to step down/aside, just like coaches
There is a time for players to make a decision late in their careers to step aside and this is no different for coaches. If this doesnt apply, then the Steelers should of held on to Chuck Knoll for another 5 or 10 years. Take Butler for 5.
Keith Butler
has, according to LaCanfora, decided to stay with the Steelers. Good for you fellas. Was really hoping he would come here to Indy.
You guys can go ahead and keep Arians, though.
No givesies-backsies on that one.
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
Yea, and you can thank us later...
…much later, but you’ll be searched for weapons first.
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
Steeler Nation TSA
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
"Oh... you're a northerner. What exactly do they call 'you people' from Pittsburgh?" "They just call us LUCKY."
Nope. Not time to see LeBeau go. It’s no secret that LeBeau will not be coaching too many more years… Butler has a golden opportunity to step up and into a DC position after learning the craft from a master.
If he can’t be patient; then thank you for your service and don’t let the door hit you on the way to Indy. This organization has never bowed down to strong armed tactics from players or coaches.. I don’t expect to see them start now. It appears as if this is a thinly veiled ultimatum by Butler. Just my opinion but I’m standing by it.
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
If he can’t be patient; then thank you for your service and don’t let the door hit you on the way to Indy.
I know it’s your opinion, but that seems a bit rough to me.
Butler has been here since 2003, thats 8 seasons as a dedicated and damn good Linebackers coach. It’s not like he has only been here for a couple and is eyeballing LeBeau’s job like a vulture.
He doesnt want LeBeau’s job. He wants his own. He doesn’t want to run LeBeau’s defense. He wants to run his own defense, use the tactics LeBeau taught him, but then put his on mark on it.
I can understand this.
Here’s a little analogy:
I’m an Executive Accountant at a large company and I have been here for 8 years. Ahead of me, the Finance Director is getting old, but has never talked about retiring anytime soon.
Another company reaches out and offers me an immediate position as Finance Director. I have no idea how long the current Finance Director at my current company is going to stick around.
Damn right I am going to take that job. My family benefits, and my career benefits immediately.
This is my opinion and I am standing by it :). I have no problem with Butler if he leaves because for all rights it is the best thing for him to do right now. Thank you for your service, and I wish you all the best of luck in the future.
Although, Butler and LeBeau are close, this has been advertised before. I would safely assume the two have been in talks about the whole thing. Ultimately, I would prefer to keep both, but I will understand and still respect either decision Butler makes.
As for the poll, I voted Butler for 5+ years. Longevity and stability has worked well for us, plus Butler could well prove little dropoff from LeBeau compared to what could eventuate should we let Butler go and try replace LeBeau when he retires.
Long term closure is more important to me.
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Jan 30, 2012 4:37 AM EST up reply actions
After reading the comments in the other thread
I agree with your position from Butler’s perspective, but as a manager, from an organizational culture standpoint, there is no way the Steelers could do anything other than allowing Lebeau, for whatever reason, to step aside on his own, or to give further assurances that Butler would be the next DC plus a pay raise down the line, should they feel so inclined. It would just send too many bad messages to the rest of the organization. In fact, the first option is probably no longer viable, given that everything has been made public.
I agree with what Homer J. mentions below: all the Steelers can do in their current position is offer some mixture of a pay raise and future assurances, and see how much Butler wants to stick around. And remember young QBs get coaches fired.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
He’s a DC, I doubt anything that happens with Luck’s development will result in consequences for himself
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Jan 30, 2012 5:32 AM EST up reply actions
Just think it would be unlikely if they have a regime change
that any of them would be kept on board. Plus, if Luck does not do a good job keeping the offense on the field, then the defense might get mighty gouged.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
I don't disagree with your points at all
and I don’t fault him for wanting to step up his career one bit. What I wouldn’t be in favor of is “forced retirement” for the guy in the position. Which is where the “be patient or feel free to go” comes in.
If I like where I am, agree with the direction my company is going in and know it’s not going to be ‘forever’ until I’m promoted, then it comes down to nothing more than a choice. I’d like to see both Butler and LeBeau stay, too. Wasn’t it just a couple of years ago that this same issue popped up with Butler and he decided to stay?
I have no doubt he’ll be a benefit to whatever team has him. Would be nice if it were Pittsburgh, but I also don’t know that I’d restructure a solid, working and sound company to keep him.
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
Yeah, I agree, Just does not work within the current constitution of the ‘company’ to force out a guy who only months prior they were traveling en masse to see him inducted into the Hall of Fame.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
can't be patient, are you serious?
he’s been patient for years. He’s already turned down multiple DC jobs in the past. God bless you Dick, you earned your place in the Hall of Fame, but I’d like to see what a younger guy can do now that he has apprenticed under the master for years. I’d like to see our defense with someone that can breathe some fresh air into it, throw a few twists into it, as teams are becoming more and more accustomed to what it is LeBeau does.
I'm going to attempt to add some different thoughts to the discussion...
Seeing as how none of us is in the Seelers defensive meetings, could we as outsiders (albeit well-informed and well-intentioned outsiders), be giving Mr. Butler too much credit for the success of the LBs? Is he good? Absolutely: his statistical track record, and the litany of pro-bowlers under his watch, is well-documented. But we don’t know how much of that is an extension of DL’s schemes or Butler’s. If he takes the Colts job and within two to three years they begin to match the heights reached by the Steelers D of the last 8 years we’ll have a better answer, but until then it’s all conjecture.
Carnell Lake himself, provides an interesting counter, in that he had no pro coaching experience prior to this year (a cursory check yielded the fact that he was coaching high school basketball prior to this past season). Now he’s often sited as one of, if not the, main reason the pass defense went from 12th to 1st. Following that line of thinking, should Butler bear the bulk of the blame for the run defense falling from 1st to 8th? The truth is that the D yielded on average 5 less yards this year than last, but the percentages concerning how those yards were acquired fluctuated. Which returns me to my main point: that these end results could possibly have more to do with Lebeau’s schemes than any other factor, which would leave Butler, Lake, et. al as the facilitators of his schemes on the macro level, and instructors of technique on the micro level.
Further, (and this point is de-emphasized, but brought up nonetheless), if Butler gets credit for the litany of successful LB’s under his watch, shouldn’t he get at least some of the blame for Bruce Davis, Rian Wallace, Thaddeus Gibson, Nathaniel Adibi, and Alonzo Jackson? That’s a decent amount of high-to-mid round picks that went to waste under his watch. And they really, really needed Jason Worilds to be even just a little better than he was this season.
So to somewhat respond to the poll question, I would take Lebeau everyday of the week and five times on Sundays. I would prefer the master to the student, if for no other reason than students are far more in supply than masters.
And to that end, how’s this for a devious third option to the dilemma (a sort of four birds/one stone): Let Butler go without incident. Release Farrior (thus saving on his salary in the inevitable crunch to come), and hire him as the LB coach. He’s Butler’s longest-tenured player, the leader of the defense (from an on-the-field, play-calling standpoint), and already loved and respected by the other linebackers. Farrior saves himself the dignity of forced retirement, allows them to use Foote as a stop gap, allows Lebeau a few more years without stripping him of some of his responsibilities as some have suggested (one can make an argument that this may work with perhaps 99% of pro coaches out there, but Dick Lebeau isn’t and never should be one of them), and gives him another pupil to work with as his possible successor. If Indy can hire the next Dick Lebeau, than perhaps Lebeau has it in him to create another one.
Interesting idea, Farrior to replace Butler...
…and most probably the type of solution the Steelers will arrive at in response to this particular problem.
I certainly don’t see the FO sacrificing LeBeau for Butler, just not the Steeler way, but this issue is a very serious “tipping point” for both the short term, and long term performance and success of the Steeler organization, and how it is resolved will be interesting to watch.
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
Most probably?
I wouldn’t even say with confidence that Farrior’s career as a player is over.
The Steelers have never to my knowlege moved a player right to the coaching staff in the last 20 years. Generally these guys that come back (Dungy, Lake etc) spend at least a year coaching somewhere before coming back.
They do have Jerry Olsavsky on the coaching staff as a defensive assistant. He was mentioned in the PG as a likely Butler replacement. (He did coach at CMU and Youngstown St before coming back)
by Steely McSmash on Jan 30, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
0% chance of Farrior being LB coach at this point
For two reasons.
1. Pay is better even as a backup LB than a coach.
2. This is a tougher transition than people realize. Players typically leave the game for a few years then get into coaching (see Olsavsky/Greene).
3. Also, I would worry about him being too close to the players to be objective.
LB coaches are integral coaches. Just like even if Batch retires I don’t see him being a QB coach in Pgh. He could start in another role but not right into a positional coach.
To your points:
While I don’t disagree that Farrior being named LB coach isn’t admittedly far-fetched, I can’t agree with the reasons that you gave. So I’ll try to provide a rebuttal for each:
1) Farrior has made somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million dollars in his professional career. Yearly salary at this point in his career is probably more a point of pride than anything else. Plus, you can’t make a backup’s salary if a team doesn’t agree to pay it. Further, does anyone here conceive of a scenario where he plays for another team, as opposed to staying with the organization where he experienced his greatest success? Has any major name involved on the field or on the sidelines for this organization in the past twenty years willingly left this team for a lateral move?
2) While this transition is indeed tough, I’ll give you a few examples off the top of my head of those who have done it: Bill Cowher, Don Schula, Tony Dungy and Tom Landry. (Landry and Cowher went directly to NFL coaching the year after retirement, Dungy one year after, and Schula two years). That’s no list to sneeze at.
3) This is too theoretical to argue about, and strikes at the point I made about how little we know about what occurs behind the scenes in team meetings and practices. I can construe an argument that any LB coach that came in would be dealing with players who felt they were too good (and perhaps rightly so) to be coached by a newcomer, and would feel more akin to abide by one they know and respect.
Like Bill Nunn, Dick LeBeau ain't going anywhere....
..but that doesn’t mean the Steelers can’t restructure next year to give Butler more money and the DC position. And put it in writing now as part of a new contract. Butler has big time leverage right now, and the question is whether he wants to use it, or whether his mind is made up. I’m certain he won’t leave without allowing the FO to make an offer, and I imagine they will do so.
If that doesn’t work, the new LeBeau may well be Mundy….or Farrior. Being a great player or very smart player doesn’t automatically transfer into being a visionary, a master tactician, or a great teacher and coach. But smart players is where you begin your search.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
Mundy? That’s interesting.
Formerly known as Steeler_
BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia
by Michael Hewitt on Jan 30, 2012 4:38 AM EST up reply actions
There's a reason Coach called him Wonderlic.....
When he took the test, he completed 29 answers in the allotted 12 minutes. He aced every one of them. Tomlin said he never heard of anyone getting every answer right.
(It’s a 50 question test, but virtually impossible to consider each question and still finish the test)
Mundy and Mewelde Moore are two guys who are really, really book smart. Sorta like that Dungy guy who used to play for the Steelers and moved into coaching.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
I'm not sure Mundy will be coaching anytime soon
Pittsburgh Steelers fan - nuff said.
Miami Hurricanes fan - nuff said.
Georgetown Hoyas fan - nuff said.
Cleveland Cavaliers fan - um yeah, about that...
by StoneColdSteel on Jan 31, 2012 1:53 AM EST up reply actions
Agree completely, unless, heaven forbid, he gets injured....
But Mundy and MeMo are prototypical future coaches….They’re not superstars, they’re very, very book smart, terrific at analyzing stuff, and very good at communicating. They’re also high quality guys.
As a kid, MeMo won a number of regional high school science competitions. Tomlin and Art love that kind of stuff. (So did Chuck Noll)
I agree with you that Ryan ain’t gonna be coachin’ anytime soon, except maybe to help “coach up” Cortez Allen and Curtis Brown. But I hope you agree with me that there are some guys on the active roster who have tremendous coaching potential the minute they hang up the cleats.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
You're right.
“The Lake Effect” comes from a smart player, capable of teaching. No differently than Hines being a receivers coach at some point. and maybe even an OC.
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
On paper, this is an interesting question for the reasons you list, but consider how much everybody in the organization respects LeBeau. If the front office got rid of him before he wanted to go, the locker room would riot. I’d worry that a lot of the guys on the defensive side of the ball would harbor some ill will towards the organization and take it out on whomever replaced LeBeau, even if it was a guy like Butler who had been around them for a while.
I can understand wanting to ensure continuity by switching to the younger guy, but you can’t ever let go of a man who has been so successful for so long and who is so admired by his players. That would be a huge mistake.
I think this is right.
The most important quality for any coach is leadership, being able to get players to listen to you, trust you, and buy into your system. Who on the Steelers D would trust or follow Butler if he ousted Coach Dad before he was ready to retire?
The FO can't fire LeBeau
It would be terrible for the morale of the defence.
Someone, I can’t remember who, suggested promoting LeBeau to Asst HC and promoting Butler to DC. I like this idea because it means you can keep LeBeau around as long as he is capable and willing while giving Butler the leg up he deserves (and has deserved for a long time).
anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 10:07 AM EST reply actions
Another thpought
The Colts currently run a 4-3 but Butler’s entire career revolved around 3-4 defences. Looks like the Colts are playing a major change to their defence.
anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked
by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 10:19 AM EST reply actions
This whole situation is just a microcosm of the dilemma we face with the team
Do we keep the proven veterans who have limited time left or do we move into the great unknown of youth? I think we have seen which wins…
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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i disagree
coaching does not have an implied age limit/ceiling, while players see sharp decline as they age.
Lebeau is not a similar case to Hines, for example.
promote Lebeau to defensive grand lord and wizard exec vp extraordinare
or some other title where he can still work the defense, advise on game plans, and have input into the draft – then let Butler take over as DC and make the calls on game day.
Butler’s been a team player waiting this long. I am not for kicking Lebeau to the curb, but they may be able to work it so that both can stay and Butler’s role can be increased.
Wait and See
They never said he was taking it.
However, he can not wait in the wings forever. If only about money can could make him LB-asst head coach. They did that to Grimm back in the day to keep from losing him. I am sure he got more money and could only be interviewed for HC positions.
Also, didn’t Butlers name come up last year for a DC position in Chicago or somewhere?
Raheem Morris
Tomlin will bring him in when LeBeau retires. They are BFFs
"If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane" - Jimmy Buffett
Might be a step down for him
Might be HC material at some level.
by Steely McSmash on Jan 30, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
He's the DB coach for
the Redskins (I think) now. It would be a step back up for him. But its all moot anyway, because the guy we want/need is staying!
"If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane" - Jimmy Buffett
lebeau
Would love to have Butler stay and all, but I would rather have coach dad for as long as he wants to stay. When he retires, we find the best available replacement. If we have him on the staff already, great.
I personally do not see it as a difficult choice, if it came down to an either/or situation. I think it would be best if the organization could have the best of both, but if not, we go with the HOF.
How do you know what Butler brings to the table?
I’m all for upward mobility and giving loyal guys a chance, but we don’t know enough about Butler and his abilities to make a decision between him and LeBeau no matter what the time frame.
As mentioned, the great players at LB played in LeBeau’s system, not Butler’s. Position coaches teach technique, alignments, adjustments and how they fit into the scheme. They don’t dream up the scheme or decide on it’s use during a game. If team ownership and Tomlin think he’s worthy then he probably gets his chance after next year (2013 seaon). If not, then he leaves now or later if they don’t feel good about him. Gotta believe Carnell Lake is going to be competing for the DC job when LeBeau retires.
Just because the players at one position are good doesn’t mean that much when deciding on who is your next coordinator or head coach. How that coach envisions his scheme and applies it to the personnel and game situations is what matters most. That’s what they need to try to determine with Butler.
How good is Tomlin? Been hard to tell with two inherited coordinators. Maybe we get to see his influence with the offense now that BA is at Indy. Hope he doesn’t get Luck killed.
"Franz" in NoCal
Well word on the streets just came out that Butler is staying.
I guess we’ll know if it’s true or not when the official announcement comes from the Steelers. Cheers if it’s true though.
HERE WE GO STEELERS!
"Our Father, who art in Pittsburgh, Football be thy game. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, at Heinz Field as it is in Heaven. Give us this day, a stellar D and forgive us our bogus fines, as we (sorta) forgive Goodell who trespasses against us. And lead us not into defeat, but deliver us a Victory. For thine is The Steelers, the power and glory of climbing the STAIRWAY TO 7."
PG reports Butler stays, and LeBeau stays.....
…being a Steeler fan is like having your cake and eating it, too.
Being the best place to work in the NFL sure has its advantages.
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer J. Simpson
by Homer J. on Jan 30, 2012 8:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Being a Defensive Coordinator or coach in the NFL – $$$
Being a Defensive Coordinator or coach on the Steelers – Priceless.
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
by PaVaSteeler on Jan 30, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
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