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Report: Jim Caldwell To Join Ravens Staff, Possibly As Quarterbacks Coach

The three-team coaching trades between Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Baltimore appear to be ongoing.

News came out this weekend former Colts head coach Jim Caldwell met with the Steelers about their open offensive coordinator position, and was seen having breakfast with Steelers coach Mike Tomlin.

InsidePittsburghSports.com reported a source "close to the situation" confirming Caldwell Stayed at the William Penn Omni Hotel in Pittsburgh over the weekend, but Caldwell and his agent, Dennis Colemen, left Saturday without a contract offer.

Now, ESPN's Adam Schefter is reporting Caldwell will "join the Ravens offensive coaching staff" for the 2012 season. The report doesn't state a former title, but with the Ravens announcing offensive coordinator Cam Cameron will remain in his position.

Star-divide

Baltimore parted ways with quarterbacks coach Jim Zorn at the end of the 2010 season, and Cameron assumed the role. It seems likely Caldwell will work in that capacity in 2011.

Former Ravens defensive coordinator Chuck Pagano is now the head coach in Indianapolis, and while there is no confirmation of any other Ravens coaches defecting to Indianapolis, former Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians is scheduled to join Pagano's staff, and possibly Steelers linebackers coach Keith Butler as well.

This news suggests there never was anything concrete linking Caldwell to Pittsburgh, and it very well could have been done in an effort to drive up his price to Baltimore. Tomlin and Caldwell coached together in Tampa Bay, and could just have been having breakfast to catch up on things. Coleman also represents University of Pittsburgh head men's basketball coach Jamie Dixon.

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OK, now I am a little worried

The Steelers are kind of running out of candidates for offensive coordinators…

by Vtechnwn on Jan 30, 2012 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

Check the main BTSC page at 11

Your reaction is exactly why I wrote what I did. There are plenty of candidates, just perhaps none we know of immediately.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

This I heard about earlier...

was hoping was our OC announcement you were referring too.

by OR69faithfull on Jan 30, 2012 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

Sorry man

I wrote two big draft stories over the weekend and scheduled them for the morning slots today.

This morning, I wrote one piece about the Caldwell situation that turned into something completely different (check back at 11, another story running and I think it’s closer to what you’re looking for, although I haven’t heard the decision will be made soon). Right as I finished it, I saw the Caldwell-to-Baltimore bit, so I wrote that up, and changed my first OC story. Then I finally got to writing the Pro Bowl story, which is what I aimed to write first thing this morning (gotta please the Google searchers).

I had already scheduled the first draft piece for 7 a.m. CT, and have already pushed it back three times, so I had to change the order around. Draft story, Pro Bowl, Caldwell and OC so far today, second draft story queued up for 7 a.m. CT tomorrow.

And who knows? Maybe they’ll announce Jon Gruden’s return to coaching as the Steelers new offensive coordinator by noon today. That will likely change our news budget a bit.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

lol

poor guy, they got ya runnin in circles they way things the media speculates, and flip like hotcakes

by OR69faithfull on Jan 30, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

That’s the fun part of the job though…I like speculation. The 10s of thousands of hits we get a month on speculation-based stories proves other people like speculation too.

It’s fun to discuss possibilities, no harm in that. I’d rather be talking xs and os about how to beat Eli Manning on Sunday, but I don’t think many on here really care about that right now.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Not worried

The Steelers are not rushing this. I believe they are doing their due diligence just like they did with the Tomlin hire. They are not looking around worrying about what other teams are doing. They are going through their process and will select a high quality candidate.

It seems like the same worries occurred when Whiz left for AZ, and we still weren’t sure who Cowher’s replacement would be. Two SB visits and one SB win later, and I think they made the right choice.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jan 30, 2012 10:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

I think any concern surrounding Whiz’s situation was caused by the fact the team wanted to be a bit more patient, and Whiz basically said "here I am, hire me today or I’m out of here."

Then there’s the rumor the league heard the Steelers were hiring Russ Grimm, then called Rooney asking them to strongly reconsider Tomlin because the Rooney Rule would lose its credibility if the rule’s namesake didn’t hire a minority.

I’m on the fence over the validity of that rumor. On one hand, the rule was never meant to require the hiring of minorities, simply to interview them. On the other, the rule itself would look far more like a rubber stamp/required reading if the founder of the rule wasn’t going above it to prove his conviction on the issue. Also, there were published reports from longstanding media members who quoted sources confirming Grimm was informed he got the job.

That’ll be one we may never know fully, certainly now that Tomlin has had a high level of success.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I had forgotten about all the rumors around that search. Still, it worked out best for the Steelers. It’s a little telling that Grimm was discussed for HC jobs for a couple years there, but still hasn’t gotten one. Maybe that rumor was more rumor than anything else. Or, as I had heard, someone in the FO had told Grimm he was going to be hired but someone else, maybe Dan Rooney, said we need to take a closer look at Tomlin.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jan 30, 2012 12:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Just about every big rumor like the one suggested here is rooted mostly in truth. I’ll bet what happened was a few people said in a meeting Grimm was going to be hired, but nothing was made official. Someone in that group went and told Grimm, then told Prisuta, who reported it. In the midst of all that, Rooney changed his mind, re-convened the meeting and said they were going with Tomlin. It’s easy to suggest after-the-fact the league had some kind of involvement, but at the same time, Rooney himself may have thought twice about it after deciding on Grimm, and changed his mind because of it.

In the end, I think that whole disaster is part of the reason why we’re hearing next to nothing on who they’re looking at for OC.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Sounds reasonable

Or, maybe Dan was leaning Tomlin the whole time while the others wanted to go the safer more established route. Dan gives in, then decides he just knows better. If anything, that is my biggest concern for this team going forward. After years of sucking, the Steelers build a dynasty when Dan takes over. Then he hires Cowher to replace Noll. If he’s the main reason that Tomlin got hired, then we may see a lot of mistakes in hiring HCs once Dan has passed on and Tomlin hangs it up.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Jan 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm really concerned about where this team is heading

LeBeau doesn’t have many years left and Butler would be a solid replacement. We will probably hang on to LeBeau and have a big uncertainty in a year or two. Which, is a microcosm for our team dilemma right now. We’ve held on to a lot of veterans and shied away from taking risks on FAs or youth.

NT-Hampton is 35 on a bum knee and McLendon only appears to be a solid role player.
ILB- Farrior and Foote are old and we have no youth to replace them. Sly is still vulnerable to being pushed around.
DE-Holding on to Smith hampered our chances of developing younger guys.
S-No youth at all. Even Mundy is getting up there at this point.
CB-Our #1 corner is old and getting paid a lot of moolah.
OL-Where’s the youth depth we see stepping up in a few years not named Gilbert or Pouncey?

Then, this whole thing with BA we are starting to look really silly with. We should have known what we wanted when we let him go, but now it looks like we didn’t. We are going to end up hiring from within and have “more of the same” with less trust between Ben and the OC and the OC needing to learn on the go.

I can’t remember an off season where I felt more uncertain about the future since Cowher’s departure. Even then, we only had to replace 1 guy.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 10:51 AM EST reply actions  

Do you think the front office neglecting to fill major holes through Free Agency is hurting your team? I know you guys have always been a “home grown” organization (which has worked out pleasantly for the most part), but why not go out and spend some money on players outside of your roster?

I know the cap situation isn’t good this year and you will likely yet again not make any splash whatsoever in FA, but could it have helped in the past?

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

There are more FAs on this team than you may think

First off, free agent additions are rarely – if ever – the reason a team gets over the hump and into the Super Bowl. The Steelers sign free agents for depth and at the right price.

Offensive tackles are both expensive and old in free agency, and frankly, if a team lets one of them go, he’s obviously not a stud. May be ok, but we’re not going to solve any problems in pass protection in free agency. The ones noticeably better than what we have now cost too much.

To be fair, too, there are plenty of free agents on the roster. Foote was technically a free agent signing, they traded back for Bryant McFadden (that kind of counts), Farrior was a free agent in 03, Ryan Clark came in 06.

Offensively, you’ve got Starks (again, technically a free agent), Jonathan Scott, Jerricho Cotchery, Byron Leftwich…there’s Will Allen and Arnaz Battle on special teams (both likely to be playing elsewhere in 2012), both our kicker and punter are free agents.

Not saying these guys are superstars (far from it), but they’re all very important members of the team.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Guess you have been active in FA

I guess I just did not want to come out and possibly indicate that Colbert (one of the top GM’s) might not have done a good job the last few seasons of preparing you for the situation you guys are in???

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, we’ll find out. I wrote in my season eulogy that this is Colbert’s biggest off-season in the 11 years he’s had the job.

There are tough decisions to be made, but the core of the team is still there. Get some more depth, give watches to a few veterans, they can still be a competitive team.

And…they may not be. It’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I would say your are right in a way.

I think the Steelers played the cap totally wrong. They seemed to have been thinking that the cap would be up this year after the new agreement. It didn’t work out that way, and bang we are way over.

They also might have kept guys longer than they should have, but I see what they were trying to do: transition the team while still having a shot at another Bowl.

I am not really optimistic about this season, but it could still turn out ok. We shall see.

Sorry for the way you guys lost. I hate Marcia Brady and the Hoodie.

hhhheaaattttthhhhh!
"You have to under promise and over deliver." Mike Tomlin

by ekl on Jan 30, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't NoLa

Win a superbowl with mostly free agents?

I like Turtles!

by RedTurtle on Jan 30, 2012 11:34 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Drew Brees’ signing with the Saints was the exception to the rule. And I would say their Super Bowl team wasn’t as free agent-heavy as their first NFC championship game appearance team was. Lots of the same guys on the Super Bowl team.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Darren Sharper, Vilma, Brees, are the big names that come to mind.

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not talking about sexy FA signings, but how could we not bring in a OT better than J Scott? I really doubt there wasn’t a better option or an equal option for less money. With Starks in that first game, I don’t think the Ravens blow us out.

Or what about G? There had to be some decent options out there that weren’t expensive. KC cut Brian Waters who signed with the Pats for like 2.2 million a year and he was a stud this year, far better than anyone we had.

This year, I think there are a few good ILB FAs out there that won’t break the bank, but I doubt we look at any of them.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

One thing I have said this season is that the Ravens ousted Pittsburgh in the signing of McKinnie and Gurode. Now, I know it “didn’t win you a Superbowl now did it Ratbird” but those could have been 2 very, very good pickups for you guys considering the horrors you saw from that OL this season.

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

You couldn’t have paid me to put Bryant McKinnie on this team. He wasn’t great for you anyway, and while it may have kind of worked out for you (your line was falling apart at the end), it was a huge gamble. McKinnie is a bum (in place of language I’m contractually obligated to avoid using on this site).

Not sure there are more than five athletes in history I have less respect for than Bryant McKinnie (Minnesota resident here, I’ve heard plenty on that a-hole you guys wouldn’t know about).

You know as well as I do if you guys made it or won the Super Bowl, it would not be because of your offensive line. Birk was completely destroyed by Wilfork as well as all-comers from Houston. Tough defenses, sure, but he was clearly overwhelmed.

You had to do it, and sometimes that happens, but no, I wasn’t upset at all they didn’t sign McKinnie. Gurode was cut by the Cowboys for a reason, and what I heard was they signed him because they knew Birk would be gone next year and they felt they could use him as a back-up this year while he heals up, and takes over next year. Shrewd move. But the Steelers didn’t need a center who hasn’t played guard making $2 million to play guard.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not talking about sexy FA signings, but how could we not bring in a OT better than J Scott?

(reaching for a bottle of Jack)

I guess not.

It’s about the dollars. We didn’t have $2.2 million to spend on a 38 year old player. We finished the year with less than a million dollars in cap space. Do you have any idea who would have not only dressed but PLAYED in New England had we beat Denver?

Me neither. They probably would have had to move offensive linemen to defense. No money, practice squad was bare. It would have been Hood, Heyward and Keisel with that Corbin Bryant guy as the only back-up to all three positions.

Without getting Roethlisberger to sign an extension and giving him significantly less money this year than he’s already slated to get (great time to fire his best friend, eh?), we’re probably between $12-$15 million over the cap. Cutting guys doesn’t save as much as you think it does, either, because you need replacements (Foote and Farrior are set for around $6 million combined, cutting them means, at best, you’re saving $5 million, and that’s with two guys at the league minimum replacing a starter and the top back-up).

We really don’t have the money to do anything but sign our own guys (probably just Wallace, and that will only be because we need cap space and his RFA tag is 100 percent guaranteed and counting against the cap.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Waters is 34, no? Younger than when we signed Flozell to a deal. And I was thinking that meant signing him and cutting someone like Kemo (who was making 2.5 a year). That signing probably also would have prevented Essex, which was another 0.8 mill.

I’m no capologist, but I think we can make decent space by cutting some dead weight. It’s time to move on from some people.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, and it'll happen soon enough

I’d expect Kemo to be released very shortly after the FO meets to kick off the start of the new league year. Zero chance of being on the roster this season.

I just used the number 38 to suggest he wasn’t/isn’t young. And yes, good point, Flozell was 35 and more expensive. Then again, he sort of had leverage on the Steelers, and the Steelers had more cap space then.

Kemo still had enough money left on his deal that cutting him wouldn’t have helped as much as it would have hurt. Again, you still have to sign a replacement for him, and considering the massive amount of injuries on the line, I think we would have been forced to ask Malor to suit up at LG and pay him food money and airfare.

Essex will probably be re-signed as well; cheap and can play five positions.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I could play all 5 OL positions too, but it doesn’t help the Steelers much.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

As much respect as I have for LeBeau......

It may be time for a change there also. One of the ‘reasons’ for letting BA go was that he had spoken of retirement for many years. Mr. Rooney just helped that along. But the other thing he spoke of was stability. If BA was going to retire, when was all this going to happen and what candidates would be there to fill the position. The same stability should be considered for the DC position. We have a man, that I understood was being ‘groomed’ as a replacement for LeBeau, in the organization right now. I understand if at age 55 he wants to do it now rather than maybe not at all. If LeBeau was his teacher, then maybe we should keep him in-house and promote him now. LeBeau is well loved and respected, but I don’t think the Steelers should hang on to him and take the stability issue to include the DC position also.

by Al_Steelerfan on Jan 30, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

have to agree

this is a bad offseason, and I think the steelers moves are probably going to be the most important of any team this off season. Plus, dealing with major injuries to Hampton, Mendenhall, Starks, and the salary cap. Very valid points on all the positions too.

by lamberts58 on Feb 1, 2012 6:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Butler

Why the Steelers are giving permision to interview Butler?
I thought he was going to be Dick’s replacement.

Win, lose or tie a Steeler's fan forever and until I die.
God is our coach.
The luck doesn't come easily you need to look for it

by ninke on Jan 30, 2012 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

permission not needed

his contract is up, so free to interview. not giving up hope yet tho, we could still give him a contract/offer that keeps him here…

by BoiseSteeler on Jan 30, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Just a random thought

If Peyton Manning retires would we want to bring him in as a QB coach? I sure would.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

If Peyton Manning retires after he gets his $28 million from the Colts, would he have any kind of earthly desire to be a quarterbacks coach? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Peyton loves the game. It’s not just about dollars to him.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I would rather have Charlie Batch as QB coach

Than bring in PM. He is one of ours. If he can do the the job well then keep him.

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Batch is already a more expensive position coach who counts against the salary cap and wears a jersey in pads during games. I don’t think he’ll want to take the paycut to do the same things each week.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

QB coach

Sometimes a QB coach makes more than a retired/unemployed QB. If Charlie is looking for a long term gig vs short term, he may consider the lost salary an opportunity cost.

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I was saying it more as a joke, but there’s an understood role of a back-up quarterback of the veteran variety. They’re there to help the starter prepare for each game, along with the QB coach. Charlie did well in his start, and I think could still be called on in that role, so you gotta think he’ll come back for the 10-year vet minimum of $925k or whatever it is.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

IDK

Not all great players can be great coaches. You see Peyton’s backups? Yea, I don’t think he has coached at all. Like the thought but doubt he has the patience and the ability to articulate and teach everything he sees on the field.

I love the Steelers.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 30, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

What does it take to be a good position coach? Knowledge of the mechanics of the position, how to play the position, film study, and being able to communicate it to players. The only one he might not have is the latter, but if he isn’t out there competing, maybe that’s a different story.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

I just haven’t seen it so I can’t call it you know. I’ve heard he has sat down with Eli and taught him so there may be evidence that he has done it. So once you get past that, you’d have to see if he’d even want to do it with 28 million dollars hanging out of his pockets.

I love the Steelers.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 30, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s true. Manning is such a perfectionist though, I don’t think he’d be able to stand having to coach the Joe Flaccos and Colt McCoys of the league (only used Flacco cuz I know Malor’s around here somewhere. You get my point).

I think if Manning were to become a coach, it’d be a year or two after he retires, and he’d want to start as a position coach as a means of being fast-tracked to a head coaching job. Not that he wouldn’t want to earn his job, per se, but he will likely think he’s good enough to be a head coach after a year or two of seasoning.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, you’re right on the gap of retire to coach. I wouldn’t be shocked if he unretires if that muscle weakness in his throwing arm goes away.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Who tried to do that a few years ago and got in trouble?

Was it Cinci?

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Why not management?

Get involved in GM type positions, ala Elway.

But you keep pulling out your "refs-threw-the-game" card if that’s what you need for catharsis. You can use that card after every loss. It is a lifetime pass. Get it laminated. -Maryrose

by Twell on Jan 30, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

This

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't teach intelligence...

…and that is Peyton’s greatest ability; to read the defenses, know the skill of the WRs running the routes he picks in response, and then recognizing when there is a weakness, a glitch, etc in the defender’s position, all in mere seconds from stepping up to the line.

Mechanics he probably could teach, but I would say he would be like MJ Greene was as a coach, forever frustrated because the players he’s coaching, didn’t have his ability to dissect the defenses like he could; frustrated teacher means less effective teacher.

United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.

by PaVaSteeler on Jan 30, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

you can teach intelligence..........

this comes with being a student of the game and lots of film study. Studying teams defenses, players tendencies, players pro’s and cons. etc. And, this is something Manning does constantly and consistently through his career.

by lamberts58 on Feb 1, 2012 7:00 AM EST up reply actions  

If peyton coaches Big Ben

To play like Painter, I’m all for it.

I like Turtles!

by RedTurtle on Jan 30, 2012 11:35 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

To John and Ninke

Let’s connect the dots here:

The Steelers granted permission for LBs coach/DC-in-waiting Keith Butler permission to interview for a DC position with Indianapolis.

Butler’s background deals extensively with the 3-4, and, in Indianapolis, he’d be working under a former defensive coordinator who ran a hybrid of front seven formations, but pressure on passing downs came from their outside linebackers who were standing up.

Tomlin coached defensive backs in a Cover 2 defense (4-3 alignment) on a Super Bowl winning team in Tampa Bay.

Tomlin got the head coaching job when he was 34 years old, and it’s highly likely the Steelers (traditionally a franchise in which the coach does not have even say as the general manager and the owner is involved in all hiring and personnel moves) offered him the position under the agreement certain coaches stay in place and certain defenses remain intact.

Hampton is a zero technique nose tackle who’s owed $7 million next year and will be coming off ACL surgery, extremely likely to enter training camp on the PUP list.

The Steelers have done next to nothing in regards to upgrading their inside linebacking group, which is primarily led by two players (James Farrior and Larry Foote) who both are in the final years of their contracts and are almost soley 3-4 ILB players.

My bet: The Steelers granted the interview because they aren’t looking to pursue that style of defense upon Lebeau’s retirement, which they may be at the point where they’re advising him to make the decision or it will be made for him.

I very well could be wrong, but let’s see what kind of players they draft in April. We don’t have a UT (think Kevin Williams and Albert Haynesworth) on the roster, so if you happen to see a lighter defensive tackle known for quickness and pass rushing taken pretty high, then you know they’re moving to a 4-3 base.

All of this very well could be the start of the transition to make it Tomlin’s team; something he wasn’t able to do in the past.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

Interesting thought and I’m not sure how I feel about it. There’s no doubt that Ziggy could easily be a better 4-3 DT, but what about Heyward? I think he has potential to be a great 3-4 end. I don’t think that scheme would fit Worilds. Eff, I don’t know.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I think a switch would benefit Heyward the most. He would excel in that dual-use DL role you see Justin Smith and Geno Atkins in today. Woodley could easily play end in a 4-3, and I’d be really excited to see what Timmons could do as a mike in a Tampa 2. He’s certainly more athletic than Urlacher is/was. Harrison doesn’t have much time left (I’d even bet right now he won’t be on the roster in 2013), but he’d be a great Sam linebacker.

Worilds’ time may be limited, and I’m not suggesting the team would completely abandon the 3-4, but these are all things they could work through. That’s why I’m saying pay attention to the attributes of the defensive guys they draft, not so much the positions. Look for a lightning-fast safety, size irrelevant, a mobile and active DT who could possibly play rush end. They’ve got a truckload of corners perfectly suited to play CB in a Cover 2 (Taylor, Allen and Lewis are enormous compared to most man coverage corners). Wouldn’t be surprised to see a heady and rangy LB (Hightower) taken at 24. Timmons could play Will, Harrison Sam, Hightower Mike and move Woodley to DE. That’s a defense that could compete next year. Maybe not tops in the league, but the Packers D wasn’t tops in the league in their first year in Capers’ 3-4 either. The next year they were top 5 because they went out and got the personnel for it.

Let’s keep in mind, too, the trademark defense of the Steel Curtain is a Cover 2, not a 3-4. Dungy learned it from Noll when he was in Pittsburgh, and he eventually taught it to Tomlin.

I’m just sayin’…

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I would prefer

they do something like the Patriots and Ravens do, have the personel to switch the look and employ some 4-3 looks and some 3-4 looks.

I love the Steelers.

by tannofsteel84 on Jan 30, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

And that’s what they’re going to do. I’ll reserve my boldness on this prediction until after the draft, but we’re going to furrow our brows on more than a few picks.

They aren’t far off from being able to put four on the ground, and in many cases now, they’re already doing that (sub packages). The only difference is Harrison isn’t down, but he’s at the 5-technique, like a standard 4-3 DE.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Technique and alignment

I have a theory (not fully formed) that line technique and alignment matters a lot more (especially with the creative zone blitz coverages that are becoming more and more popular) then the rigid distinction between a “3-4” and a “4-3”. You see teams running a 4-3 with a 0-technique defensive tackle with two-gap responsibility. You see teams running a 3-4 with the NT in a one-technique and single-gap responsibility. You see 4-3 DEs in the “wide 9” looking like OLBs, and DEs dropping into coverage.

Bottom line, I think the “3-4 vs 4-3” dichotomy is way overstated, and more and more we’ll see defenses using hybrid schemes that incorporate elements of both.

by DG Lewis on Jan 30, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

And it seems like our DL is now looking for a lot more gap penetration from the DT than in years prior. Combine that with McClendon’s ability to get after the passer and the fact that Woodley plays at the line of scrimmage and we are basically playing a 3-4 in name alone.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t go that far. McLendon didn’t really get after the passer much, and that was by design. Having two middle linebackers in their nickel suggests more of a 3-4 look, and that’s what the Steelers do (or did due to the significant amount of time lost from Woodley and Harrison).

There are elements, but it’s still a 3-4 in the sense their edge rushing comes from linebackers, and the guys in the trench occupy blockers. They did stunt through the middle quite a bit, which is an emerging defensive trend too (see: Suggs, Terrell and Matthews, Clay).

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Would have to go back and watch

but I guess I am saying it depends what the ILBs do in the nickel. We have always used that inside fire blitz, but I have to say I do not recall that as much this year, instead dropping them into coverage in either the slot or up the seam. If that is the case, it is somewhat similar to what a 4-3 OLB would do. In general, off the top of my head, I recall us relying on our DL plus maybe one OLB to rush on most passing downs this year, which would be a 4-3 element.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

They brought fire blitzes on run downs quite a bit, but the OLBs stunted to the inside a lot out of the nickel. I don’t think that’s technically a fire blitz, but I’m also confident I’m not the excellent football mind you are, so maybe I’m wrong.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Not much of an excellent football mind

I was meaning the fire blitz where the ILBs cross in the middle before the line, but I was more referring to blitzing on passing downs, which they seemed to tone down this year compared to years passed, maybe to help the pass coverage.

Someone on here might have the stats though…

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You're exactly right

But it’s still a personnel distinction as much as an alignment distinction.

I agree with you completely, and that’s the point I’m making. But, regardless where they line up, you still need certain interior linemen to play inside. We don’t have any of those kinds of players right now to run those schemes consistently. McLendon is a strong but undersized NT. We don’t have an under tackle. To run variations of both, you need to have both of those kinds of players.

You need serious speed rushers off the edge, and right now, our guys are more power-based, and they get a head start.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Agree. The personnel you need are based on the alignments and gap responsibilities of the scheme you run. The alignments and gap responsibilities are a lot more nuanced these days than simply saying “3-4” or “4-3”. Not having a “traditional” 3-4 NT can be addressed by trying to find a 350-pound space filler who can effectively soak up two (or even three) offensive linemen – or can be addressed by shifting to more of a one-gap, 1-technique scheme on the inside.

One reason that the Steelers and a few other teams had as much success as they did with the 3-4 over the past 20 years is that it allowed them to take advantage of market inefficiencies. If everyone’s running a “traditional” 4-3 (with one-gap responsibilities up front), then undersized DEs and oversized DTs are undervalued. You can draft them later, because they’re in less demand, and make them into 3-4 OLBs and NTs. But as more teams start running “traditional” 3-4 schemes with two-gap NTs and DEs playing 0- and 5-technique, those players get harder to find. So the trick is to find the next market inefficiency and design a scheme to allow you to exploit it.

I think if anyone is capable of doing that, it’s Colbert, LeBeau, and Tomlin.

by DG Lewis on Jan 31, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess I wouldn’t mind that. Now I am really intrigued to see this draft. My mind is racing.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Hell, the more you guys speculate...

…the more nervous I get. We’ve got the Ravens and Bengals on the rise, the little Brown squirts moving up defensively…

…an aging core requiring hard decisions, and providing opportunity to change directions…

…Holy Pittsburgh Puzzlement Bat Man, the Riddles keep coming!

United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.

by PaVaSteeler on Jan 30, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

You’d hate to hear my theory on how the Browns could sign Peyton Manning without giving up any draft picks then…they could potentially get Blackmon and Wright in the draft.

Tell me that team with vastly improved receivers and a healthy Manning playing in front of that defense wouldn’t scare the hell out of you.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Manning is either playing for Indy or no one. That’s my guess.

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Get outside the box, Malor! It’s a freezing cold Monday and our teams are done until it’s about 95 outside, may as well start makin’ some stuff up.

Besides, if he plays anywhere outside Indy, it’s San Francisco. If you’re the 49ers, don’t you have to take a chance on him? You’ll get him at most what it would cost to re-sign Alex Smith, and you drafted Kapernick in the second round with the intention of having him prove whether Smith is the long-term answer.

Maybe they don’t have a great idea if Smith is the right guy or not, and the fact they don’t definitively know means he’s not. Manning for a year, maybe two, incentive-laden deal, lean on the defense again, who’s beating that team next year?

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I have read from numerous places that his neck is in just terrible shape right now. I just don’t know, I don’t think we see him wear a uniform every again.

Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.

Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang

by Mr MaLoR on Jan 30, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's a knowledgeagble post on his situation
I posted this over at Coltpower, thought I share my insight to why.
I am a radiologist and have several friends who are neurosurgeons. They perform the surgery that Peyton had routinely. They tell me that it takes at least one year to recover from this kind of surgery. The fact that he is having muscle weakness in his throwing arm (referred to as radiculopathy) is also a poor prognosis. That is why Polian was correct in stating that the doctors don’t know when the nerve will regenerate. The physicians I know are doing these procedures on everyday people like you and me, not on high performance athletes. Being able to play with his twins, drive a car, get dressed, swing a golf club, is going to be no big deal. Trying to thread a pass to a receiver 30 yards down field with a defensive end trying to pull you down is another story. Peyton has already been out of football for one year and likely two years if he has a prolonged recovery. My guess is that he is finished.

This is in response to another poster in regard to other players coming back from this type of surgery

Not to get into too many technical details, but the persistent muscle weakness is the problem. Most players who have had the fusion surgery do not have persistent weakness following surgery (especially since this is his throwing arm). Most of the neurosurgeons that I know thought that his second surgery (the one in May) should have been a fusion surgery. I am sure Peyton was given the options and elected to just have the herniated disk removed which meant that he would be able to play during the 2011 season. Hindsight is 20-20, but we may be talking about Peyton fully recovering if he would have had the disk removed and neck fused back in May to relieve pressure on the nerve sooner. Again, I am just guessing as I do not know all the details.

by Radcolt on Jan 30, 2012 10:20 AM EST reply actions 9 recs

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Jan 30, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You guys are fun-haters. I would love to hear about Manning vs. Brad Childress behind closed doors.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

p.s.

Watch San Francisco if you want to see a team that does it the right way.

Best coached defense we’ve seen in the league probably over the last 10 years. Their front seven was so good and so versatile, Aldon Smith rotated in probably half the defensive snaps and he had 14 sacks. He rotated in because he can’t play inside and outside the way their linemen all can. I could totally see Heyward and Hood rotating in and out, Woodley and Harrison as well.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

True

but that also means we would most likely pursue Tomlin’s favorite concept, versatility, and at least in the case of the Patriots’ example, would bypass a specialized player like Terrence Cody at NT that can only play in rushing situations.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes sense

I was watching last year as they seemed to change from a couple of the basic tenets of the LeBeau 3-4 scheme: zone coverage, dominant run-defense, DTs better at stopping the run than rushing.

You mention waiting until this draft, but I wonder if they have not been developing this flexibility for the past couple years. Little trivia question of anyone knows: when was the last time the Steelers drafted a 3-4 DT in the first round before Hood and Hampton? I know that, a few years back when I interned with the Texans, I was amazed that the Steelers made due with late-round DT, while the Texans tried to load up in the early rounds. This might be a product of more teams playing the 3-4, but usually the need to invest in early-round DL talent is for those 4-3 teams that need their guys to generate a pass rush. It would seem that a lot of money is being invested in the DL, especially if we need to draft an early round NT as well. Given that Harrison can cover pretty well, he could probably still play 4-3 OLB, which would then leave it to someone like Sylvester to also move to OLB.

In general, it seems the techniques and coverage schemes we are utilizing more closely approximate those of a 4-3 so either Tomlin is incorporating some of his expertise in the scheme or we are beginning a transition.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Little trivia question of anyone knows: when was the last time the Steelers drafted a 3-4 DT in the first round before Hood and Hampton?

I would say never, considering Cowher brought the 3-4 with him in 1991, and Hampton was the first DT they drafted in the first round in his time.

Hood was a tackle in college, but they never saw him playing anything but DE in their 3-4.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Did some quick research

If you want to focus on first rounders, then it has never happened in the 3-4. In 1991, Noll drafted Huey Richardson, DE from Florida. He was gone by the next year.

During Cowher’s tenure, they drafted Joel Steed (1992) and Kendrick Clancy (2000) in the third round; Brentson Buckner (1994) and Jeremy Staat (1998) in the second round. Of course Aaron Smith was a fourth rounder in 1999. Steed lasted from 1992-1999; however, Buckner and Staat only played for the team for three years and Clancy played from 2000-2004. The point being that they seemed to cycle through the guys and then replace them with mid-round picks.

In total, the new value placed on 3-4 DT either means simply that the demand has increased and thus the price or that they are targeting guys that can do more. No matter the distinction, if they are spending extra money, they will expect the guys to do more, which might indicate a change in scheme/responsibility.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Worilds

Could Worilds be developed into a 4-3 rush end along the lines of Cam Wake?

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely a possibility

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

I just think it’s funny to hear those two names in a comparison manner.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Cam Wake

He went to the CFL because he didn’t catch on in the NFL. The playing time was invaluable and it paid off for him.

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok

Let’s ship Worilds off to the CFL then.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I would love him on the Bombers

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 31, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

If he learns to do anything besides run himself upfield and out of the play.

"Leave the gun. Bring the Canolis."

by Paulie58 on Jan 30, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure to the level of Wake

but thats what he played at Va Tech. He was tried at OLB in the 43 but had to be moved back to DE. Was actually solid at stopping the run as a DE. Not sure what changed when he came to the Steelers. Position change/level of competion probably both. I think he has the quickness to play in a 43 but only as a rush specialist, for now anyway.

"you will hardly know who I am or what I mean"-Walt Whitman

by Pittsblitz56 on Jan 30, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Lack of play recognition. Worilds is about a second behind everyone else on the field.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

More film room study needed

"you will hardly know who I am or what I mean"-Walt Whitman

by Pittsblitz56 on Jan 30, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

talk about full circle

by klompus on Jan 30, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Was thinking the same

Given Ziggy’s slight dropoff, this would seem to help. But yeah, Worilds would have to be a pass-rush specialist, which might actually fit him better, given that he would not need to set the outside edge.

"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."

-- so says Rex Ryan.

by sctx109 on Jan 30, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

very interesting

I noted the Colts shift to 3-4 but I hadn’t considered the Steelers seriously going 4-3.

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I can, Han

Although I shouldn’t have…I think it’s perfectly fair to say Crennel in Baltimore would be a scary proposition.

Where, exactly, that came from is a different story. Were you a part of a Fantasy draft for coordinators and positional coaches around the league?

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 12:32 PM EST reply actions  

Mock Draft material

How would a mock draft look based on the assumption the Steelers will be going 4-3 in 2012? This should give our mockers something to play with.

anyone trying to contact me via my yahoo account should be aware it has been hacked

by Cold_Old_Steelers_Fan on Jan 30, 2012 1:31 PM EST reply actions  

It would definitely bring a dude like Melvin Ingram (DE/OLB, South Carolina) into the mix. He’s that emerging Aldon Smith kind of guy; can play up or down, but can wreak havoc in both spots. Too big for guards and tight ends, too fast and explosive for tackles. Move him around to mismatched spots and let him make plays.

by Neal Coolong on Jan 30, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a huge man crush on Melvin Ingram and would probably lose my mind if we drafted him. With that being said, I think he would be perfect for any type of defense we migth use next year. He could play both the DE and OLB position like a boss, even though he is a little bit short for a DE at a hair under 6’2". Honestly, if we picked him up it would be like having two (!!!) Woodleys.

"If you havin' dragon problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 arrows but my knee took one."

by Riddlah. on Jan 30, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Vinny Curry could also work.

"If you havin' dragon problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 arrows but my knee took one."

by Riddlah. on Jan 30, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

and cuz lifes so fast, the lights keep flickerin. and so it is for caldwell and the steelers oc search

by klompus on Jan 30, 2012 4:52 PM EST reply actions  


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