Keith Butler To Remain in Pittsburgh, Declines Interview With Indianapolis
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 7:16 AM EST
in Steelers Coaches
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PrintIn a plot twist amid a shaky offseason in Pittsburgh, linebackers coach Keith Butler has decided to remain in Pittsburgh, after meeting with Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin and team president Art Rooney II Monday.
The news leads to speculation as to what, exactly, Butler was given to stay.
Butler received a handshake agreement with the organization in 2009 to become the team's defensive coordinator when he turned down an offer from then coach Tony Sporano to become Miami's defensive coordinator. That handshake must have been renewed, and likely with it, a raise.
There is no word on whether he will receive a title change or anything of that nature.
His decision to stay, and the team's desire to keep him in place, will only raise speculation on the future of current Steelers defensive coordinator Dick Lebeau. It seems unlikely Lebeau would go public with any desire to retire after the 2012 season, so the decision to keep Butler on staff could be construed as the Steelers passively forcing Lebeau out.
Lebeau's defense is on the brink of a transformation with the team facing tough decisions on the futures of DE Aaron Smith and NT Casey Hampton. LBs Larry Foote and James Farrior are also coming under question as to their inclusion on the 2012 roster.
However, Pittsburgh had the league's best scoring defense in 2011, amid multiple injuries and a complete upheaval of the starting lineup from Week 1 to Week 17. The season saw rookie DL Cameron Heyward play extensive snaps - rare for a Steelers rookie defensive lineman - and several young guys playing key roles as the season progressed.
It'll be interesting to see how this is received; the outcry on the forums here on BTSC about letting Butler go was loud.
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Does this mean that the 4-3 speculation will finally come to an end?
You don’t keep Keith Butler around as a DC in waiting, just to switch to a scheme he is unfamiliar with once that day comes.
I don’t know if Mike Tomlin is committed to the 34 defense, but this move makes it clear that the Rooney’s are.
hope not...
Ziggy seems much better suited for a 4-3 end… and Heyward a solid tackle/de with Kiesel, Mclendon filling either as well….think our guys would flourish is a 4-3 set…especially with the add of a game changing DE add….
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
Ziggy a 43 DE?
Did you mean 43 DT, because if so, I would agree. Ziggy is the only member of the front seven who would have a natural position in a 43 defense. Heyward could be a serviceable DT, but not good enough to justify his draft position. Who would play at DE? Woodley and Worilds? Again, serviceable, not dominant. Heyward is a prototype 5 technique, and Woodley is a prototype OLB in a 34 defense. Changing schemes would be a waste of their talent.
Switching to a 43 would mean making wholesale changes in personnel on defense. Of course, this is a mute issue, because Butler is going to run a 34.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
this isnt a thread about 4-3 3-4 scheme
nor do I care to get into all my reasons at tis time of why I think the 3-4 has seen its better days as a defensive scheme… I will say, I think your quite wrong about Ziggys ability to be a great 4-3 DE… but enough of this for now…plenty of dull days ahead to have a seperate thread ( aye neal ? ) about shifting to a new 4-3 or keeping out 3-4 set…
now on to the next orderof business, and lets sign and announce our OC
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
Your the one who brought it up
Name me a 6’3", 300 lb DE playing in a 4 man front, and you might be on to something.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 8:08 AM EST up reply actions
you clearly
dont share, or seen the instict ive seen in Hood to be a much better 4-3 DE then 3-4 role he plays now…. I brought up the need in my opinion for us to migrate back to a 4-3 scheme… and feel Ziggy and all our Dlineman would flourish in that scheme… then added this is not a thread about defensive scheme, and suggested to neal perhaps another day we can all have a nice chat about our views…
need I continue?
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
If you don't want to discuss it
then why continue to discuss it?
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
I bow to your gentleman
1 upsman nature… off to better things…
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 8:25 AM EST up reply actions
I think you might misunderstand each other
The disagreement is not whether or not Ziggy Hood would be a better in a 4-3 scheme or not, but if he would play DE or DT, and he would probably be a bit more of a DT in that scheme.
I do not see why you (Greig Clawson) do not think that Heyward could play in a 4-3 scheme. It would not have to be like the Colts with two undersized rush ends, but something like the Seahawks ran this year with one rush end (say, Worilds) and another very large DE. We would still need an under tackle, as someone has mentioned previously.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
Do not know why it double posted and skipped the conntent
But basically, the difference of opinion seems to be on whether or not Hood would play DE or DT in the 4-3, not whether or not he might be better than in a 3-4.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
Re Heyward
Heyward fits the prototype of a 5-tech in a 34. It’s not that I don’t think he can’t play in 43, I just don’t think you draft a guy like him in the first round, if you plan on using him in a 4 man front.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
but couldn’t the same argument be made on drafting Ziggy if he turns out to not be a great fit as a 3-4 DE?
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
touche
Although, one thing I will say about Hood, is that prior to the draft, he was being compared to Aaron Smith. That said, you make an excellent point.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think the upshot of all of this
something we are both approaching but from different vantage points is that the Steelers are moving toward doing something a bit more ‘non-conventional’ with their DL. Heck, even Brett Keisel is more of a pass rush threat than almost any of the ‘Cowher guys’.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
I think your right
my apologies to OR69
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
no need...
we all get heated up with that same fire in heart for steeler success
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
+7, well said.
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
by PaVaSteeler on Jan 31, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
LB's one issue if we switch to 4-3
In a 4-3 scheme we need more 3-4 ILB types. What do you do with Woodley and Harrison in such a scheme. They would not be rushing ends like they are now.
Time will tell but I am not sold that a switch to a 4-3 is in the cards. NT next year is the issue but Hampton started as a rookie if I remember right.
well....this would be a transition....
and we might be picking one of those linebackers in the 1st round…. but lets save this for a rainy day
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
this is one of the reasons
I would much rather have Still from state, then a traditional NT…. he can play both positions
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure I agree with that
Plenty of successful defenses have a base D alignment, but they play a variety of schemes. The Ravens have been doing that as far back as Mike Nolan, and it’s being picked up by several other teams (Cincinnati, San Francisco, Houston).
It’s about personnel more than philosophy. If you have one swing player, a guy who could play inside and out, up and down, you can basically run both fronts.
The Steelers play four down in their nickel package quite often now as it is. They play two down in their dime. None of these things suggest to me they’re dead-on-balls a 3-4 defense. It may be their base, but the base is really only your main run defense. Teams throw so often now you have to have essentially a passing base as well.
Again, speculation, but perhaps part of the reason why Butler is being begged to stay is because he’s got a hard drive’s worth of new schemes and variations, and that’s what they don’t want to leave the organization.
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
thats gotta hurt
None of these things suggest to me they’re dead-on-balls a 3-4 defense.
I love the Steelers.
by tannofsteel84 on Jan 31, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
What your describing
is more of a 34 hybrid, rather than a true 4 man front. The Ravens and Texans have had much success with a hybrid scheme, and I could definitely see the Steelers moving in that direction.
We may be talking about different sides of the same coin. What I consider to be a true 43 scheme is more along the lines of what the Giants and Lions play. Even in their sub packages, they always use 4 d-lineman, with the main personnel changes happening behind the line. In the case of the Ravens and Texans, they have their 3 d-lineman, and move an OLB around to a variety of positions.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Just saw this comment after posting above
Though I think Neal and I agree to a point. Given the demands of playing more 4,5- WR sets, I think the Steelers are adapting their base scheme, not to be a typical 4-3 team with two rush ends, but to have a multitude of guys that can put their hand down or drop back in coverage.
The implications of this, however, are that a specialist NT might no longer fit, instead requiring more of a pass-rushing threat from the position. Having said that, if Poe is BPA, I think they make it work. It is just that, at present, Hampton and most other NTs are two-down linemen, and maybe not even that against spread offenses.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
I think Poe fits what your describing
He split time playing the 5 tech and 0 tech this year. I see a lot of similarities between Poe, and Haloti Ngata.
I also have seen the Steelers play with two down lineman, with the OLB’s playing closer to the line on passing downs. Poe and Hood are both powerful enough to control the line, while allowing the outside packers the opportunity to get after the QB in nickle situations.
Somewhere in all of this convoluted mess, I am agreeing with your comment. I think we are just using different labels for what to call it.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I guess my point is that, unless we find a versatile NT, like maybe Poe is, then I do not think we draft one just because.
By the way, for clarification, could you describe the distinction on responsibilities between a 0-tech and 5-tech?
Cheers.
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
Gap responsibilities
0-technique plays over center, and is responsible for both A gaps. 5-technique plays over the OT, and is responsible for the B and C gaps.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
where I understand your thought direction...
I think moving to the 4-3 will have a two phase approach….one…moving toward what you suggest… with less NT presence…ultimately after Harrison retirement… I think a second move need be made to a more formal 4-3base defense with quicker linebackers whom can cover….
There use to be great upside to running a large LB 3-4 scheme…. If you put 4 or 5 in rec set, you were always given the ability to punish both the reciever and QB…. that is just not the case any longer…the only punishment is fines to players… which forces you to cover man to man with linebackers which we clearly dont have the speed or smallerish size to do…. where we do have two very large OLB’s whom need to be incorporated into out defensive philosophy short term…long term we need cover LB’s… I also dont see the advantage of rushing 3 down 1 OLB against bigger offensive line teams which most are moving towards… we will get plash plays on occasion, but…its a disadvantage to put a 270lb guy up against a 340 lb LT for every play…. Its not that a hybred version of a 3-4 cant be successful…but… it can also be game planned against… From what Ive watched over the last two years round the league… it seems clear to some degree these rule changes have had an affect of defenses league wide… our larger OLB 3-4 scheme perhaps more so… Ive noticed the 3 recent adds to our corner depth, and how their talents might be able to offset some of these changes… time will tell how we proceed… I suppose to some degree my feeling of preferring the 4-3 stem back many years… and recently seeing just how effective a true 4 man front has been accross the league has further fueled that sentiment….
by OR69faithfull on Jan 31, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
tweaking the D
I don’t think Steelers will be playing a lot of 4 DL sets, but they could certainly move to a different mix of formations … including playing more 5-6 DB sets at unexpected times, which might keep the dink-and-dunk teams from abusing our LB’s in coverage. And they can always get 4 guys on the line by putting Woodley and Deebo on the line, as they often are. If anything, the flexibility of Ziggy, Heyward, McClendon and Keisel to move along the line might suggest that they will phase out the space-eating NT. Does that mean they won’t be a 3-4 team? Maybe.
Didn’t the Pack play almost 50% of their snaps with a 3-2-6 this year? Well, on 2nd thought, their D was terrible …
score one
for the black and gold…..
Still hope we pursue a DT verses traditional NT.. much more flexability…hoping Tomlin has some influence on this for the yrs to come..
Traditional DT?
How does a one gap, penetrating DT fit into the Steelers defense?
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 7:39 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks Neal!
It could have just as easily gone the other way. One thing we can both agree on, is that the Steelers D should be in good hands for a long time.
Hey, like I said, I admit when I’m wrong! I think he’s crazy, but that’s just my opinion, and that is based only on the information they’ve released.
I’m going to continue assuming Butler is not actually miles above the world’s most loyal employee, and that he’s receiving more than just an incremental raise and a handshake agreement he’ll run the defense when Lebeau retires.
Pure speculation, but you gotta think he’s getting a defensive coordinator salary and some kind of verbal assurance he’ll take over next season. There’s no way this can continue to be a “someday” kind of thing.
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
The devil is in the details
I don’t mind him interviewing for other jobs, after all, he didn’t have a contract after this season. I wonder if LeBeau provided him any insight as to his long term plans. This is pure speculation on my part, but I also wonder if Butler was given some additional duties, such as sitting in while Tomlin and LeBeau meet to put together the defensive game plan, and having more responsibilities when it comes to installing the game plan during the week. It would make sense to have your DC in waiting to be more involved in the duties he will have to fully take on when he has to shoulder all of the responsibility for the defense.
I attempted to find it again, but had no success. I read an article that featured an interview with Butler, that left the impression that he is not a fan of uprooting his family, and that stability is very important to him. When you factor that in, it makes sense why he would want to stay.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
As long as The Night Before Christmas stays in its proper hands
"It's football the way it's meant to be played. That's who Pittsburgh is, and that's who Pittsburgh has always been."
-- so says Rex Ryan.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I also wonder if Butler was given some additional duties, such as sitting in while Tomlin and LeBeau meet to put together the defensive game plan, and having more responsibilities when it comes to installing the game plan during the week.
I would imagine that’s been happening for a while now. If not, I’d like to formally announce my availability to represent Keith Butler in his next contract negotiation.
There HAS to be something else…if we don’t hear of anything, then I’m guessing they made Lebeau commit to retiring after this season. I just don’t see a guy sticking around AGAIN without a definitive timetable.
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
I tend to agree
His new deal could have been incentive laden, such as a prime parking space, an expanded cafeteria menu, and a promise from the organizations to add cheerleaders.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Whatever it was...
The news leads to speculation as to what, exactly, Butler was given to stay.
…whether a swiss bank account, or the key to LeBeau’s fountain of youth water cooler, the Steelers could not afford to lose Butler, with LeBeau only here on a year by year basis…
…losing Butler would have turned this “re-loading” year, into a total “re-tooling” year, given the already made decision to change Offensive Coordinators.
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
Grass not always greener
May have also been a case of the grass is not always greener. Indy runs a 4-3 and needs a lot of help on Defense.
Indy wooing Butler
suggests that Chuck Pagano plans on making the move to a 34 defense. Freeney and Mathis are both undersized DE’s, and the skill set to transition to OLB in a 34.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
You seem to presume
…that they’ll be keeping both next season; aren’t they some kind of free agents in waiting?
Fly by night, away from here
Change my life again
Fly by night, goodbye my dear
My ship isn't coming and I just can't pretend
RUSH
by Flying Polamalus on Jan 31, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions
Completely agee
It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see one, or both go elsewhere.If either are on the Colts 2012 roster, they would have a position in a 34.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
So Pagano, a new coach known for his defense, is going to let Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis walk?
I don’t care what your scheme is, there’s a place for those guys on the defensive side of the ball with 32 teams in the NFL.
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I never said they would be let go
only that I wouldn’t be surprised if they were forced to move on. After all, the Colts are in rebuilding mode.
I think both could do very well at OLB, in a 34 scheme. If for some reason neither player is part of the long term future in the defense, it would be silly to let them both go until their is a viable replacement on the roster, which will probably take more than one draft.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
It's hard to stand in disagreement with you again
So I’ll just say I’d be happy to add pass rushers the level of at least Freeney to this roster, so I really hope you’re right.
The Colts letting Manning and Freeney walk in the same offseason…wow…
by Neal Coolong on Jan 31, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
I think you missed my original comment that started all of this
Indy wooing Butler suggests that Chuck Pagano plans on making the move to a 34 defense. Freeney and Mathis are both undersized DE’s, and (have) the skill set to transition to OLB in a 34.
by Greig Clawson on Jan 31, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Happiness is a re-signed future Defensive Coordinator
United we Stand, melded like Steel
To Roger Goodell, We'll never Yield.
by PaVaSteeler on Jan 31, 2012 8:25 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I feel much better today
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter
Good for Butler. There must be some kind of guarantee in place. I mean, it's not like Butler is a young man
I was surprised to read that he’s 55 years old. I thought he was maybe in his mid-40’s or something. If he stayed on, there has to be something in writing for him to be the next DC.
I don't think there will be changes
Remember this: Bill Cowher came from KC after the 1991 season, running a defense with Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Dan Saleaumua, Albert Lewis, Kevin Ross, and the 4-3 defense. Speculations in 1992 after his hiring by Art Rooney II was that Coach Cowher would switch to a 4-3. 15 years later, the Steelers still kept the 3-4.
Coach Tomlin of course comes from the Tampa 2 4-3 concepts made famous by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin. Given that the Steelers do not have the personnel to make those changes immediately nor is such successful change possible overnight, I don’t see us changing the defense anytime soon. Good to have Keith Butler back but I have a feeling that he was given a written promise by Art Rooney II and Coach Tomlin that he (Butler) will definitely be the defensive coordinator in 2013.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.- Mark Twain
by steeler_chris_5 on Jan 31, 2012 10:33 AM EST reply actions
I'm ecstatic that we're keeping Butler. THis is awesome news for the team and Steeler Nation
At least, that’s just my opinion.
And we’ll continue to run a primary 3-4, with occasional shifts to a 4-3. It’s standard practice across the league, for the most part. But we’re set up for a 3-4.
http://tr4f.wordpress.com
Mountainbiking the Continental Divide in 2012 to raise awareness of human trafficking.
As for LeBeau, I think everyone in the organization knows how long he has, except maybe he players.
He isn’t here for another 5 years, or even three. I’d be surprised if he coaches past next year. So in my opinion, this was a case of, “Hey, Butler, hold out, Dick said he’s gone next year, then you’re in.”
Wouldn’t ANY coach want to play for the Steelers, where you have job security, even if you suck *cough*Arians*cough* :)
http://tr4f.wordpress.com
Mountainbiking the Continental Divide in 2012 to raise awareness of human trafficking.
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